Why do people scream "Feminist Agenda" when there is a female lead?

Sylveria

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Parasondox said:
Well its true. Darth Vader's pullout game is weak.

You know what internet, what's the matter? Should we go outside, and play some catch? Talking about the emotions we are feeling inside because its not good to keep them inside, Lil' Jimmy? This "Feminist Agenda" anger you are going through isn't something that normal internet users go through. You seem hurt. Are you afraid of something? It's okay if you are. Your mom and I have been talking and we just think it's best you go to your aunts for the weekend upstate. It's away from the city, away from WiFi and the internet and you can feel some sort of freedom away from the anger. What do you say Lil' Guy?

All seriousness though, what is up with people? Allow me to pick your brains. Dont worry, I may be a zombie but I have gluten free brains.

I get it. Some people really dislike feminism. As soon as that word comes up, out comes the anger, the hate, the colourful words, the paranoia, the "dey tok r jeeeeeeerbs" attitude. A female is the focus of an IP. So what? Whys that a problem? If its the poor writing where writers assume all women suffer the same thing, I understand. It's shitty poor writing. However, if its cause they are getting more screen time and story is developed more then... then calm the fuck down.

From Mad Max Fury Road to Jessica Jones and now Star Wars, I just see comments about "Feminist Agenda" and how they are trying to... control our minds with their powerful vaginas? Damn vaginas. Beautiful but deadly.

I dunno. I just wanted to ask.
Can you provide a single example of what you're claim? And I don't mean "I saw so and so say this." I mean an actual article or a link to a non-anonymous blog, or anything? Because I can pretty effortlessly send you to articles from fairly well known publications who claim Mad Max is a feminist film or casting an African american lead in Star Wars is somehow "sticking it" to the white male patriarchy upon request. In my experience with SJWs over the past couple years, it seems to me that the only people who are claiming every little thing that involves a female getting a prominent role or what-have-you is the act of some great feminist cabal... is the feminists.
 

Ryotknife

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people are surprised that the next disney movie will feature a human female lead?

Have they watched ANY Disney movies in the past 30 years? Generally speaking, the only male leads are non-human (cars, finding nemo, lion king, walle)
 

IceForce

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BloatedGuppy said:
I'll try to TLDR...if "people" are making a big deal out of something that, in your mind, does not merit the attention, the balm for that wound is not to make an even bigger deal out of it in a different way. You demonstrate that something is "not a big deal" by ignoring it, not via the formation of armed camps.

It kind of goes to the whole "people get too offended by everything" commentary issuing from the mouths of folks who communicate an hourly basis just how outraged they are by everything around them.
Yeah, the hypocrisy of that really gets on my goat.

And when called out on it, these people usually fall back onto some paper-thin excuse like they're "holding a mirror up" or "holding people to their own standards", when really all they're being is unabashed hypocrites. (THEY'RE allowed to make a big deal out of things, no one else. THEY'RE allowed to get outraged at things, no one else. Etc, etc.)
 

Cecilo

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JimB said:
aba1 said:
Okay so if you have to penetrate someone for it to be rape
Who is saying that? Which specific statute says that? I don't understand which definition you're talking about. Did you only read the first couple of paragraphs and miss the part where they say the summary definition is only a summary of a lot of different definitions across a lot of different jurisdictions?

aba1 said:
I don't know if you have ever had sex but
Okay, so that's the level we're operating at. People who disagree with your reading of the statutes are virgins who don't know what they're talking about. Fantastic. Yeah, I think I'm done with you.
I get where the person you are quoting is coming from though with the bit you are quoting in the second quote. If you are going to have to stop every time you go to touch someone, somewhere else, it is going to kill the mood. It is the most puritanical thing I have seen since my education on the founders of the US.

The way Yes Means Yes laws are shown in commercials on how it should be done, goes like this. "Can I touch you <Insert part/place here>" "Yes or No by you". - "Can I touch you <Insert part/other place here>" "Yes or No by you" Ad nausea. This is no conductive to something that is for many people, almost 70+ Percent instinctual or.. whats the word.. uh.. it relies on body language. Yes. Getting consent to have sex is a must, but getting consent every step of the way, in words, is ridiculously limiting and a complete mood killer. You look to your partner to see if they are enjoying what you are doing, if they aren't you stop.

Ideally you would have talked out what you enjoy before hand but one night stands don't always work out like that.

And while I can see where they were going with this law, in that you have to be the one to make sure that they are okay with it, in the off chance they aren't willing to speak up. For other things, it just kills mood. The argument could be made as well that "Well if you want such an intimate relationship where you don't have to ask every step of the way, then get into a solid relationship". But how the hell are you supposed to get into that relationship in the first place? Many a relationship has ended for men and women if their partner isn't exciting in bed, and it can be assumed you'll have to go through the affirmative consent at least once. It just seems counter to how we have progressed through the ages and how we have looked to our partners for signals. The way people move, respond, push into you, it is all indicative of what we want, and before anyone jumps down my throat on that last bit. You. Always. Ask. BEFORE. Getting into something more meaningful like sex if your partner is up for it. Always (I suppose you don't have to if they initiate it but that is up to you at that point).

Ahem. Sorry for the rant.
 

notashark

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Dear internet: The world just doesn't care. Leave your cultural baggage at the door for once and have some fun already. You might even like it.
 

Thaluikhain

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Cecilo said:
You always ask before, but you don't need to get consent in words every step of the way? Surely it's one or the other.

In any case, yes, people should be able to tell by body language and so on, however that can be difficult for some people at the best of times, and there are many, many people with weird and terrible ideas about consent that need to have this drummed home.

Also, I'm not buying the idea that "it ruins the mood" (with the implication that this will affect everyone, because everyone is sexually the same) makes this a bad idea. Yes, it could have that effect, however this is here to prevent rape, which is significantly worse.
 

1981

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IceForce said:
Yeah, the hypocrisy of that really gets on my goat.
"Artists should have the freedom to create what they want." Moments later: "Artists are always targeting a specific group." Moments later: "Artists are just creating something they like to masturbate to." Moments later: "It's not porn, it's art."

"Art doesn't have to be realistic." Moments later: "How are we supposed to know better if no one teaches us what's realistic?"

"How can you criticize it if you haven't played it?" They play it. "You already paid for it. What difference does it make anymore?"

"Don't just sit there and whine. Go out and do something." They go out and do something. "You're infringing upon my rights. Get back in your corner."

edit: "Don't tell me what I should or should not enjoy." Moments later: "Let me tell you what you should or should not enjoy."

aba1 said:
Cecilo said:
Where does it say that consent has to be given verbally "anytime you do anything during sex"?

thaluikhain said:
In any case, yes, people should be able to tell by body language and so on, however that can be difficult for some people at the best of times, and there are many, many people with weird and terrible ideas about consent that need to have this drummed home.
Yeah, all of this is aimed specifically at those people. I don't think most people have trouble communicating their needs, but sometimes/often a partner just refuses to listen. If you tell them what you want, they reluctantly do it once and continue with what they want to do. Even if you clearly tell them you don't want them showing their finger in your mouth (no, it's not a metaphor), they won't stop until you bite them (no, violence is never okay).
 

Karadalis

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Barbas said:
I've never seen any merit to these complaints. It's always sounded like whining or scaremongering and in some cases you can just feel the playground hypocrisy and insecurity bubbling up from below the paper-thin surface. I treat the idea of a "feminist agenda" that's trotted out at every opportunity with the same amount of seriousness that I treat the idea of the gay agenda or the black agenda.
I have never seen any merit to wanna be feminists complains in video games. Its allways sounded like whining and scaremongering and in some cases you can just feel the playground sexism and insecurity bubbling up from below the paper-thin surface. I treat the idea of a "patriachy agenda" thats trotted out at every opportunity with the same amount of seriousness that i treat the idea of the gay agenda or the black agenda.

Heres the thing Barbas... the tone makes or breaks it. People are NOT getting pissed off at more female protagonists in movies and games.

Honestly no one really cares.

What people care about is being called mysoginistic pigs for enjoying their games with white male protagonists and sexy looking females. They get pissed because they are accused of supporting the "rape culture". They are pissed off because wanna be feminists have created such a toxic picture of gaming that our hobby is set back currently to the times of jack thompson, only that this time the business does not stand against the finger pointers and pearl clutchers and instead seems to think that self censorship is better then being called out as mysoginistic monsters that want to supress women worldwide and work for the patriarchy.

People are pissed off because tumblrinas demand characters being genderswitched for no fucking reason then "its time this game franchise gets genderswapped.. why? uhm... DIVERSITY!" that this is completly ass backwards and supports the image that a female character can only succeed based on the lore of an allready established male character and the irony of it seems to go completly over the head of these people. People are pissed off because these slactivists are dragging backthe myth that "games causes Y!" only difference that violance was replaced with mysoginy and suddenly everyone beliefs it... because this time the people who make that claim just happen to be women and not some looney lawyer dickhead. Remember: Listen and believe... but only when a woman tells you!

We have moraly bankrot people go to the UN and ***** and whine about people on the internet telling them "they suck" while the human rights department of said UN is headed by saudi fucking arabia that IS actually a patriarchy and treats women (and human rights in general including gay rights and lgbt rights) like dirt. Again, the sheer lunacy and irony seem to go completly over these peoples heads. But no, the depiction of women in video games is much more important to these self proclaimed pop culture critics.

Extremistic Feminism poisens gaming and tries to force change that was allready happening to begin with! Companies sell what sells, not what moral apostals WANT to sell in their self imagined perfect world consisting of only safe spaces and restricted speech.

In short: Gamers do not want to get told what they can and what they cant enjoy in gaming based on some tumblrinas slactivist opinions. And that is EXACTLY what is currently happening.
 

Barbas

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Karadalis said:
Heres the thing Barbas... the tone makes or breaks it. People are NOT getting pissed off at more female protagonists in movies and games.

Honestly no one really cares.
Yet whenever it happens, so does the panicky ranting.

In short: Gamers do not want to get told what they can and what they cant enjoy in gaming based on some tumblrinas slactivist opinions. And that is EXACTLY what is currently happening.
So? That's always going to happen. If I lost hairs worrying about what every delusional person on a Tumblr blog said about something I enjoyed, I'd probably have been dead before the age of 20. And what about radical Christians and congressmen going on about how video games will bring about the fall of mankind? There will always be people like that in life and there's really a maximum amount of effort you can reasonably spend addressing their arguments. This is not a big deal, yet it's ranted about endlessly and treated with disproportionate seriousness. That speaks more of the gamers involved having a serious lack of perspective than it does anything else.
 

The Dead Singer

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chocolate pickles said:
Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.
You know, I keep hearing about this mysterious tumblr Illuminati that apparently has conspiracy theory level power, how they poison ideologically pure places like The Escapist. I hear stuff like that and I can't help but think it's a nothing but a strawman. You see the thing is I see a few people immediately default to complaining about patriarchal society, that's the thing, it's a few people, a loud minority, that doesn't actually have any real impact on the entertainment industry.

The thing I seem to see a lot of is that the people who shout "Feminist Agenda!" are the same kind of minority, just on the other side of the supposed "issue".

This applies to not only some here on The Escapist and tumblr, but it also applies to lots of social media sites too, like Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit.

Now I see a major difference between the two groups: The "feminist" side a is group doesn't really understand feminist philosophy, but still uses it to voice their dissatisfaction. The tend not to do any harm, when they do do harm they more often than not do it to themselves rather than any societal structure. Also large entertainment companies will scapegoat them for an internal decision not to release things in certain markets, like a video game company recently did... Justifying not releasing an installment in a sub-series in the west, because of feminist outrage, instead of the real issue which was consistently declining sales of the sub-series, which was making bringing the games over and getting them certified unprofitable.

The "anti-feminist" side is probably even worse for several reasons. One it's a group that is capable of shutting up those they disagree with, usually via methods of doxxing, harassment, combined with rape and death threats. It's also a group with a large sector that indulges in horrific amounts of shaming people for their body weight and sexual habits, the latter usually within acceptable norms anyways. All of this happens because some women and men identify as feminist and have issues with society, a small section of those who disagree with the feminists decide to engage in absolutely horrible and illegal tactics of threats and stalking.

To put it in TL:DR summary: The feminists are trying to do their best to invoke positive change, some of them might be a bit misguided, but their hearts are generally in the right place. The "anti-feminists", specifically a loud hateful minority of "anti-feminists", feel threatened that people want social change and equality, so they engage in dirty underhanded and illegal tactics to shut their opposition up.[/quote]


Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about, at all.

I don't take much involvement in these matters and almost unequivically the ones who pull out the doxxing are "SJW" (I hate this term fyi)/feminist type, not the opposites.

See: Zamii070 and her attempted suicide for drawing """""fatphobic""""" fat
 

Naraka

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Barbas said:
Karadalis said:
Heres the thing Barbas... the tone makes or breaks it. People are NOT getting pissed off at more female protagonists in movies and games.

Honestly no one really cares.
Yet whenever it happens, so does the panicky ranting.

In short: Gamers do not want to get told what they can and what they cant enjoy in gaming based on some tumblrinas slactivist opinions. And that is EXACTLY what is currently happening.
So? That's always going to happen. If I lost hairs worrying about what every delusional person on a Tumblr blog said about something I enjoyed, I'd probably have been dead before the age of 20. And what about radical Christians and congressmen going on about how video games will bring about the fall of mankind? There will always be people like that in life and there's really a maximum amount of effort you can reasonably spend addressing their arguments. This is not a big deal, yet it's ranted about endlessly and treated with disproportionate seriousness. That speaks more of the gamers involved having a serious lack of perspective than it does anything else.
Maybe if you had nothing else, nothing here, no social skills, no job and no life, you'd crave the feeling of importance and outrage instilled by assuming that raving Tumblrinas are a rising tide you have to fight. It's probably easier than trying to actually deal with the glaring issues that give you so much time to type online. It also suggests that you can't reach people like that until they want to be reached, because it's an active attempt to fill a terrifying void. Like old, lonely people who watch sad, manipulative television, or your older uncle who is outraged by Fox News every 10 minutes. They're not just victims of something, they're knowing, desperate, sad accomplices.
 

BarkBarker

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Well some things clearly do bend to a audience who shout them down enough, it has happened and will happen although what defines it now is apparently too loose for some people...or they didn't check the actual meaning in the first place. Some media is riding that feminist agenda to the bank, putting on a show of "woman can do it just as well as men" rather than "women can do things, men can do things, people can do things, go people" or something along those lines.

It exists, it is just attributed incorrectly quite a lot.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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The Dead Singer said:
Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about, at all.

I don't take much involvement in these matters and almost unequivically the ones who pull out the doxxing are "SJW" (I hate this term fyi)/feminist type, not the opposites.

See: Zamii070 and her attempted suicide for drawing """""fatphobic""""" fat
It's funny, not haha funny either, when someone has no idea what they're talking about, then claims someone else has no idea what they're talking about.

Doxxing is not generalized harassment, it's releasing personal information like someone's real name, home address, phone number, and place of work online publicly. I also never once said that the social justice crowd and feminists were completely innocent, but in the same vein I've never seen a major [Redacted hashtag reference], MRA, or similar "conservative" type chased from their home by actual doxxing, stalking, death and rape threats. Ever. Especially one whose not a major public figure. This sort of thing however has happened to many internet feminists who, if not for feminist leanings, wouldn't have gotten the time of freaking day.

Also Zamii070 wasn't a case of doxxing, stalking, or straight up death and rape threats. What did happen was this person was harassed and bullied into a suicide attempt by random assholes on the internet. Generally when it's an SJW, or Feminist driven to near suicide by opposition, they get told to suck it up, but when bad eggs on the "SJW"/feminist side do it, especially to each other, it's suddenly proof and tragedy. That's one hell of a double standard and blatant show of bias.
 

Jingle Fett

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
The Dead Singer said:
Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about, at all.

I don't take much involvement in these matters and almost unequivically the ones who pull out the doxxing are "SJW" (I hate this term fyi)/feminist type, not the opposites.

See: Zamii070 and her attempted suicide for drawing """""fatphobic""""" fat
It's funny, not haha funny either, when someone has no idea what they're talking about, then claims someone else has no idea what they're talking about.

Doxxing is not generalized harassment, it's releasing personal information like someone's real name, home address, phone number, and place of work online publicly. I also never once said that the social justice crowd and feminists were completely innocent, but in the same vein I've never seen a major [Redacted hashtag reference], MRA, or similar "conservative" type chased from their home by actual doxxing, stalking, death and rape threats. Ever. Especially one whose not a major public figure. This sort of thing however has happened to many internet feminists who, if not for feminist leanings, wouldn't have gotten the time of freaking day.

Also Zamii070 wasn't a case of doxxing, stalking, or straight up death and rape threats. What did happen was this person was harassed and bullied into a suicide attempt by random assholes on the internet. Generally when it's an SJW, or Feminist driven to near suicide by opposition, they get told to suck it up, but when bad eggs on the "SJW"/feminist side do it, especially to each other, it's suddenly proof and tragedy. That's one hell of a double standard and blatant show of bias.
I have no stake in this discussion either way, but you obviously haven't heard about how Brad Wardell got doxxed and his whole family threatened and his young son threatened with sodomy.
Here's a quote from his interview here on The Escapist:
When some forum goer posts my home address and Google Maps images of my home, it's not the obnoxious regulars or even the jerk who posted my address that I need to look out for. It's the crazy lurker in the thread who decides to go drive by my home and send an email describing my house and how they're going to come over real soon and kill me, rape my wife and sodomize my son (this happened to me after the Kotaku article).
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12397-Brad-Wardell-GamerGate-Interview.2

Brad Wardell is the CEO of Stardock.
 

Drakmorg

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Because when you're used to being on top, equality starts to look like oppression.

"Damn artists and their scumbag SJW pandering! They should instead be pandering to me, the demographic that is used to being exclusively pandered too! That kind of pandering is the only acceptable pandering!"
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jingle Fett said:
I have no stake in this discussion either way, but you obviously haven't heard about how Brad Wardell got doxxed and his whole family threatened and his young son threatened with sodomy.
Here's a quote from his interview here on The Escapist:
When some forum goer posts my home address and Google Maps images of my home, it's not the obnoxious regulars or even the jerk who posted my address that I need to look out for. It's the crazy lurker in the thread who decides to go drive by my home and send an email describing my house and how they're going to come over real soon and kill me, rape my wife and sodomize my son (this happened to me after the Kotaku article).
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12397-Brad-Wardell-GamerGate-Interview.2

Brad Wardell is the CEO of Stardock.
Reading up on Wardell, he's kind of a public figure in his own right, still such harassment shouldn't ever be considered tolerable. Also he's not really what I'd call a politically motivated party, he's motivated by the business he's in, and his ethics are very consumer friendly. Really I can't state what motivated a particular stalker to target him. Wardell's situation isn't proof that one side, or the other is particularly worse here, but it is proof that there are plenty of potentially violent crazies to go around. Wardell is the first on that particular side of the debate to be harassed in such a matter that I've heard about. It's also important to point out that he wasn't driven from his home and that he said this:

And when someone does post a Google Map of my house now, I tend to react very aggressively to discourage them or their friends from doing so in the future. Not because I think they're dangerous but because of the crazy lurkers out there. And every time my address or personal information has been posted, it's been a self-described social justice warrior who did it.

That said, this crap does happen more often to women than men because the crazies tend to be men who have existing psychological issues with women. But these crazies aren't representative of any side.
He's far from typical of what sort of people orbit this particular debate, because he's an industry professional for one, and not an anonymous party known only by twitter account for the other. In this particular context, Wardell is representative of the sentiments that started the movement, not the ones that hijacked it. The same thing happened to MRAs and it's also happened to the mainstream images of Social Justice and Feminism.

Edit: As a further point the mainstream image of feminism, combined with it being a very gender centric movement on the female side, are reasons why I can't in good faith ever identify as a feminist. Because feminism can't represent me, or my motives and opinions regarding gender equality. Having said that, feminism does have a lot of very good philosophy in spirit, but like with any large nebulous movement, you have to dig through a mountain of crap to find it.
 

Kingjackl

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The classy thing to do would be to acknowledge that online harassment is an awful thing that can happen to everyone, often for no worse crime than being misrepresented or expressing an unpopular opinion. But no, let's make it about points scoring. The person I agree with was doxxed/harassed therefore my side is the victim, but all the times where it happened to the other side doesn't count or lacks evidence. Though I'm really tempted to bring up the incident with that "Tranny Gladiator" game from today as an example of where the "SJW" side had a much bigger reason to attack a developer but didn't, while the "anti-SJW" side went after them for spiteful, reactionary reasons.

This thread has mostly devolved into the same tired bullshit that happens whenever the Escapist community tries to talk about gender, but I still want to talk about the original topic. Namely I think it's a case of mistaking any representation of a minority (and in the area of escapist cinema, women are a minority) as tokenism. But tokenism stands out when a character blatantly has no reason for their presence other than fulfilling a quota, while a non-token character is someone who has a crucial presence in the story. To use the more recent examples, Furiosa, Jessica Jones and Rey are the protagonists of their stories, so they obviously cannot be considered token. Of the three, only Rey's gender doesn't have any important role plot-wise or thematically, but that doesn't mean the film loses anything by making her female. In all instances, I'd say people are allowed to appreciate badass female characters on screen because we don't see as much of it.

Let me put it another way: my two female friends who saw the Force Awakens were both talking about how great it was to have a female main character kicking arse in a Star Wars movie, and there are so many women who consider characters like Furiosa or Jessica Jones empowering. That, to me is so much more important than a bunch of people on a forum complaining about tokenism or Mary Sues or (especially) the feminist agenda.
 

Eddie the head

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They really don't. People just react strongly to manufactured outrage. Nobody cared about "bigger" gal in Overwatch, and nobody cared about that someone was gender swapped in Jessica Jones. I saw like 3 articles defending both of those. Then there is the Ghostbusters thing witch the only complaint I've heard about it is that it sound like they're having problems on set, and it likely won't turn out well, but hay they said the same thing for Ant-man.