Why do so many people think that in order to be mature, art has to be dark and depressing?

[ckam]

Well, that's the entire reason why the whole Attack On Titan, Transformers, and other franchises are popular. People want to show off how mature they are, especially when their favorite things are associated with "kid's stuff".

 

[V4Viewtiful]

There are a lot of supremely good comic writers and artists who don't take the easy path and go "dark and edgy". A lot of Mark Waid's and Geoff John's stuff tends to stray into the light and maintain a spirit of hopefulness. The same can be said for Dan Slott. Even Jonathan Hickman at his most multigenerational illuminati type conspiracy weirdness tends to be mostly upbeat. Heck Morison these days seems to split his time evenly between grim dark and upbeat.

I just worry that DC and Warner Brothers is heading to that same dark "deconstructionist" place from the late 80's that gave birth to the decades long poop pile we collectively try to forget that was the 90's comics industry.

Well what started in the 80s was done with competence, when the style was replicated in the 90s it was without understanding why those dark or mature theme where not only successful but game changing.

The Lorax is actually pretty dark and mature when you look at it in context but it's very much a childs story.

In a comicbook forum I usually go to a poster goes "Deconstruction is the new Construction" and unless you are trying to put a new perspective on something not seen before it's a played out tool.

 

[Orks da best]

Sadly dark and grim things are often considered mature when really it is swapping one form of immaturity for another.

And many also think anything with colors or that has a fair amount of happiness or idealism is considered childish, lighthearted, or something along those lines. Whereas anything that depressing, sex and cuss word filled, or cynical is seen as adult.

In truth maturity and mature works are hard to 100% perfectly describe but one thing that defines then is respecting the audience.

Many immature works of both the childish and dark side ignore this fact, if they cannot get that right they can never be considered mature in my eyes.

 

[Fox12]

Darkness has nothing to do with maturity.

What matters is the theme of a story, and how well delivered that theme is in the narrative. For me a good comparison is The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen, two of the most lauded comics ever. In Dark Knight the darkness is turned up to a frankly silly level. Batman is now an ugly man beast of a thing. He realizes that he's been too easy on crime, and it's time to get serious. His car has now been replaced with a tank, and in the end he uses a private army of thugs to bring "peace" to the city. I didn't like this story, I thought it was the sort of thing a 14 year old would think was cool. It was a reaction to the campy batman of yesteryear, and as a result is said to have helped comics "grow up." But it didn't really, because the characters were shallow, the themes were poorly explored, and everyone is just... ugly. I found it infantile and immature.

Watchmen was more complex. It was also a very dark story, but it was a realistic one. Was Ozzymandias right or wrong? How about Rorshach? Or the Comedian? Or were ALL of them wrong, despite having completely different philosophies. I've heard people say that Ozzy was the real hero of the story. I've also heard people say that he was the villain, and that he won i the end. And yet both are wrong. The real brilliance, and optimism, of the story comes into place when you examine the ending. Ozzy is named after a famous Poem about a ruler who thinks he's all powerful, but who is ultimately forgotten. Ozzy is short sided, and ultimately his plans will fail, because he can't live forever, and he can't change human nature. The book also supports a more positive outlook on human nature. This is easy to miss after reading Rorshachs chapter, but in the end we see a number of minor side characters step into a street fight in order to protect the people involved. It's in peoples nature to want to help one another, and our future isn't decided for us for good or for evil. Rorshachs philosophy is wrong, or at least flawed. As a result Watchmen gives us a very optimistic idea of what people are capable of without ignoring the evil. As the story says, we are capable of good and bad, but the rest is left up to us.

But most people who tell dark stories don't think things through that deeply. A light and dark story can be equally shallow.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's because this is the stuff that's age gated, and age gate = mature to a lot of people. Boobs and guns and cussing are considered off limits because they're for adults, so they're so awesome and mature!

I say that as someone who doesn't mind a dark or broody or gory story if it's merited. It just pisses me off when they try and take the Batman approach on Superman.

 

[Jodan]

art does not have to be dark and depressing to be considered mature. point of fact we had to study l'album zutique by (among others) verlaine and rimbaud featuring french poems like trou de coup, which is mostly a crass expertly written poem on sodomy. Thing is we studied it as mature art.

 

[Lilani]

The thing that bothers me the most about that Superman comic is the fact that they went with the most stereotypical looking goth kid imaginable. I've known a few suicidal people, and none of hem dressed like that. They all just looked like...regular people. And the goths I've known had a great interest in death, but never really went so far as actually trying to commit suicide. Drugs maybe, but not to deliberately take their lives.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

All that maturity amounts to is being mentally and emotionally developed enough to respond well to adult matters. Having sex, drugs, and violence doesn't make something mature but how such content is treated in a responsible and reasonable manner. Having something "edgy" isn't mature because that's what children do when trying to be cool at attempts at being able to look adult in often dangerous ways, which is the exact opposite of mature. A mature person doesn't try to get laid or drink whenever oneself can, but rather knows that there's a limit to such things and that are more important matters to focus on. Basically, a mature setting or person isn't dark, but is *aware* that dangerous things exist and doesn't try to get involved unless if they need to and are aware of the risks.

 

[Vault101]

this is an issue I have with endings in particular

now don't get me wrong, a sad depressing ending can pack a real emotional punch, and an ending HAS to fit its work

Brazil (the movie) has an ending that you might not call "happy" but its absolutly perfect

the thing is though I think people feel the need to do this just for the sake of it, I honestly don't see the point of coming away from a work feeling depressed and never wanting to re-visit it again than I do feeling eahter happy...or not happy but satisfied

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

JesuOtaku put it very well. I don't remember her exact wording, but her point was that the fact that a series is dark doesn't automatically make it better. It doesn't make the characters more well-rounded, or the dialogue better, or the soundtrack more poignant, or the plotting more well-done.

I think that was in her Madoka Magica review. She said that the show wasn't good because of it's deconstructive nature, but because of all of the things you listed above.

Yep, that's the one. My favorite of her reviews.

Agreed, the review is very good and Madoka itself is a story with characters that are very well developed before the tragedy, a story and script that shows how the people go through this situation and ultimatly an emotional ride

OT I'm 20, I fall just outside the teenage demographic that most people will say equate dark and mature, and I can even say that I believed in that ideal. I managed to get out of it partially so let me explain a bit. We don't want to be kids, in high school we want to be seen as equals to adults. We look at the books they read and the shows they watch compaired to others and say "our stuff is too sacarrine, lets go the opposite direction". I to this day really dislike light hearted stuff like slice of life or harem anime but looking back, maybe it wasn't the lack of saccarine stuff that attracted me, it was the writing and characters to some degree. Code Geass, Evangellion(we can debate on this one but i like it) and Lord of the Flies make me bitter and cynical. In college, I am currently breaking out of it.

I know the rant was a bit long but to sum up, some of the dark stuff we are exposed to are actually better then the kids stuff but now i know that there are a lot of horrible "grimdark" things out there like All Star Batman and Robin, the Spirit movie, and other shows that indulge in sex and violence. Ultimatly, maturity is supposed to come from the writing and characters, how they interact with each other and whether the results on screen are poignant. It does not involve despair and anguish all the time

P.S. if I had not gotten out of that dark mindset, I would have missed Kill la Kill. The show is dramatic without being tiring, meaningful without being heavy, and the charcters are developed without being tragic. I don't regret my watching the show and hope to find more shows like it

 

[briankoontz]

It's the American Hollywood trend, or that's how I like to call it. Stick guns and swearwords and dark colours on something, and hey presto, that something is automatically mature. No need for pesky things like a complex plot or deep meanings.

A product can be full of blood, violence, sex and foul language, and still be extremely immature. On the other hand, a product can be colourful, happy, positive and watchable by children, and still be powerfully mature.

Dark atmosphere and maturity are in no way related. It always amuses me when they slap some blood and a sex scene on a film with an entirely dumb plot, and they call it mature.

You're on the money here. It's marketing, not english. So while "mature" meaning something in the dictionary, it means something else in the entertainment industry - usually sex, nudity, and violence.

A Clockwork Orange should have taught us that sex, nudity, and violence are NOT mature. What's mature are deep character understandings, psychological examinations, close and well-communicated relationships, complex realities, etc.

Think for a minute about how difficult it is for the lazy as fuck entertainment industry (including of course the video games industry) to produce true maturity in entertainment. So for them, mangling the english language is a small price to pay for propagandizing naive, gullible, or complicit people into believing they are consuming "mature" media when in truth it's terribly immature.

There's also the problem of the people producing the entertainment. Stanley Kubrick is mature. But how about Michael Bay? When the entertainment industry wants to produce immature "maturity" they can't call on someone like Kubrick - he'll just fuck it up and produce something mature. The Michael Bays of the world won't fuck it up, so they get the work and the paycheck.

It's pathetic, but that doesn't stop them. Why tell the truth and be brave enough to produce truly mature media when you can tell bullshit and throw boobs, gyrating humans, and "a bit of the ol' ultraviolence" in there and call it "mature"?

 

[OrokuSaki]

Because mature and dark comics CAN exist and have gone over well in the past, people think that making a dark comic automatically gives it depth. Personally I love a dark comic as much as the next guy which is why Chris Yost is one of my favorite authors to read. But at the same time it's really annoying to watch people try to put a "Dark" twist on a beloved character and mess the whole thing up.

 

[Super Cyborg]

I think a lot of it has to do with two things, that lots of dark stuff is superficial and not well done, and it's an overall attitude problem with people. For the first point, you get people who think that just throwing in sex, drugs, and violence makes it mature, therefore better than the stuff for kids. People don't realize that there has to be story and context with those themes for it to be actually be considered mature. Throwing it in for the sake of it isn't mature. Throwing it in their to make a point, or if it's a natural thing in the story to show consequence, that's mature adult themes.

The second point I feel is the more important one, or at least it directly involves the consumer. You get people who are afraid to be looked down upon for what they like, and there is this perception that if something is dark and gritty, it's mature and people won't look down on you, this can be seen with games to a degree. If someone watches a cartoony show, that on the surface doesn't seem to deal with "mature" things, then it's not mature, and only kids watch that. As an example, you will get people who call the Lego movie dumb not because of well thought out reasons, but because it's lack of blood and other things show's it's not mature, but then might point out to Prometheus, and say that's mature because it had death, blood, and other stuff.

Overall, it comes down to the execution of the media for if it truly is mature or not. Avatar the Last Airbender and the Lego Movie are mature because it shows certain subject matters in a subtle but good way that older audiences can see. There are media that is dark and gritty, but can still get across a mature theme that deals with adult situations, and is not mature because of the fact it has blood, or everything is dark.

 

[thanatos388]

I think it has to do with the ratings system and it's liberal use of the word mature. When you grow up only allowed to watch kids stuff you want the forbidden fruit. But you can't have it because the game is rated "mature", "the content is approved for mature audiences only", and "mature material" labels give the wrong impression. Anything 18+ is called mature and so people grow up believing that things that include blood, sex, darkened color filters, and naughty words are mature, it's a label they are given. Also society has a way of shaming those who still watch "childish" things like any and all cartoons and videogames so they lean towards obscene mature rated material to try and convince people that they are not childrens programs.
Thats why there are people who say with a strait face that they did not want to watch Attack on Titan until they saw a scene and realized that it was "mature" and for adults. It's one of the most silly and over the top animes I have seen, and while it is well written for what it is and maintains tension during the fight scenes and such it is anything but mature, it's a 13 year olds idea of mature material.

 

[Saika Renegade]

I personally blame the 90s, due to the so called Dark Age of Comics that came in around that time--ushered in, ironically, by the likes of Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. Not to say those were badly done comics, far from it. I'd say that they are actually quite deep, if you take the time to think about them.

That last part is where a lot of other stories that have since risen up on a dark and grim platform have fallen flat. They don't realize that the dark and mature themes weren't included just for their own sake, but added something to the world given in the story. To compare it to something on the Escapist itself, Yahtzee (paraphrased) said in his review that Half Life could be blamed for a lot of modern gaming's problems, but only because of people who blindly ape the motions without understanding the context. The same can be said for darker, more mature works in all mediums--people go for this grim depiction because they've seen other movies/games/books/etc. do the same and went on to sell like gangbusters, first following the successful originals and then following the copycats, further diluting the original concept of strong storytelling with the idea that grimness and dark themes were the only things that mattered.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

Presumably because it's more "realistic", which I refuse to believe is the case. Life is harsh, yes, but it's usually not very dark and depressing. Anyone who thinks that might be a bit overselling themselves a bit.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the darker stuff, though with a few exceptions, such as the Bioshock games, the Shadowrun and World of Darkness tabletop games, and the anime Puella Magi Madoka Magica (...I've already said too much about that one, just watch the first few episodes if you're curious, and you'll see what I mean. Then decide if you want to keep watching.)

I also have a big problem with series ending on a happy (or at the very least, bittersweet) note and then suddenly the follow-up becoming very dark and depressing. It just doesn't seem fair, especially considering what those characters went through to get to this point.

Finally, there's the belief that blood and gore and swearing and nudity are "mature", like 90% of Adult Swim's output and the cartoons that Fox and Comedy Central put out. Not that a show can't have all of these things and still be good (Like The Venture Brothers for example, and I daresay South Park had it's moments, rare as they were...), otherwise, I feel that the lowest common denominator gets way too much attention.

...Sorry, I tend to ramble a bit...

 

[Someone Depressing]

Because some people think that being dark and gritty and bland is closer to real life, and celebrates the nobility of man. This is why painters with certain styles, like the painter of The Swing [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Fragonard,_The_Swing.jpg] weren't considered artists.

The Swing is a gorgeous painting, yet all it depicts is a playful girl flashing herself to her handsome lover. No nobility of man, no loss, blood, grit and war. So, it wasn't considered a painting as much as it was considered borderline softcore porn.

The Dark Age of Comics, insane plots that go on a tangent that end up dropping all comedy and likability, and psuedo-intellectualism are all partly responsible for the "if it's bright and happy then it's shit and not art" attitude.

While dark plots and setting =/= maturity, some people really do think this.

 

[MirenBainesUSMC]

Its a poor creator/writer's tool in order to get people to notice/watch the TV/Movie and or Comic/Book. It isn't a staple of being mature by cramming nothing but existential subjects sopped in gore, violence, and sex. I would point towards the Star Wars trilogy in which such a farily simple tale of good vs evil can have all the facets of dark and light yet also be entertaining, whether you are 12 or 41 years old -- that is an example of making an otherwise simplstic plot able to be enjoyed by many vs having to look over your shoulder so that your kids won't catch you watching grotesque adult entertainment.

The " Red Wedding" comes to mind from Game of Thrones. Completely unesessary. It is almost a miracle that some of these scenes don't produce a mild form of PTSD to veiwers watching it. If you want to get a shocking experince without the need to simply show abuse, violence, and death --- watch " I Claudius". I guartuntee you will have a more enteratining time watching it despite the lack of detailed violence because the power comes from the facial expressions of the actors instead of relying upon parlor tricks.

I believe the trend is setting due to the tough times we are living in today as far as the wars and chaos going around the world. The US Media is reflecting the feelings of the people today, even when you watch prime time television, the ammount of copy cat crime shows are reyling upon grusome tales of abuse, neglect, and the worse human debris filled characters one can imagine.

What makes anything created mature is when you have written or created a game/tv show/movie that has multiple layers of thought woven into the script/story where varying characters both good and bad, can offer glimmers of hope in which the reader or audince can still find specks of humanity within the character despite their place within the story. I think this is why many people like re-playing games such as Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty, Mass Effect Trilogy ( - the bad flaw of ME3), the Dragon Age Games, Final Fantasies --- ect. They have villians and heros that aren't so completely heroic or villinaous... and we can sympathize with their roles while enjoying their sometimes brutal story archs and good endings.

No one wants to wallow in depression. If you want to do that, just turn on the news.

 

[BoredRolePlayer]

Because they don't want to be seen as kids or childish. It's why when Frank Millar's Batman came out older readers could talk more openly about their hobby. Me personally I don't get the point of making it dark for the sake of making it dark, but then again I like comedy. I'll say this and leave because I don't wanna get my head chewed off, I don't like the Nolan Batman movies. The brooding and the constant talking about the philosophy of a grown man running around as a bat isn't fun. I like the Animated Series more, yes it is dark but it still has nuggets of humor that made it enjoyable.

Captia: "are you a us born Mexican american"
Why the fuck does that matter?