Why do we assume that aliens would be far more advanced than us?
- Thread starter Jacco
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Depends on the physiology of the alien species. A species that can hibernate or go into some kind of dormancy could do the long journeys without needing so much sustenance/entertainment/whatever. A species that can survive in space naturally wouldn't need any kind of artificial gravity or spacesuit tech. There's no reason that a spacefaring race would have to be particularly advanced, just advanced enough to plot a course between stars.
But it's still more reasonable to assume a spacefaring race would be fairly advanced. The only organisms on Earth with physiology that robust are microbes.
But it's still more reasonable to assume a spacefaring race would be fairly advanced. The only organisms on Earth with physiology that robust are microbes.
If they've reached us. That's a given. They're sure as hell not hovering over to us on a petroleum engine pickup truck. (If they do that's still damn impressive and is a far more advanced pick up truck than we've ever thought of building)
If we visit THEM however the jury is obviously still out on that one.
If we visit THEM however the jury is obviously still out on that one.
While this is certainly possible, it doesn't seem highly probable unless the race itself either doesn't have a concept of violence or the need to defend themselves (unlikely they have absolutely no concept of this though since they would undoubtedly have other species on their planet, including some forms of predators), or they have moral prohibitions on violence that leave them unwilling to fight and kill other life forms.Jacco said:
But the reality is that any civilization which has become sufficiently advanced to travel through interstellar space and reach Earth has the scientific knowledge to develop weapons at least on par with ours. In fact, one of the simplest ways to wipe us out would be to find a large asteroid and propel it towards the Earth. Such a thing would be simple for a race capable of interstellar travel, and not only are we unlikely to see it coming before it's about to hit us, even if we did see it, we couldn't stop it. That's to say nothing of the possibility that they'd just launch a ton of nukes at us from space. Something else we probably couldn't deal with, especially if they move faster than any missile we could build and are constructed of tougher materials than we could damage to shoot them down. Both being very likely as well if a race can travel interstellar distances.
My point being, even if a race didn't specifically develop very powerful weapons or strong armour intentionally, any race capable of reaching us would have to have the requisite scientific knowledge to do so. Some things you're just not going to be able to skip over if you want to travel to other planets. Nuclear physics being just one of them.
A simple approach to this question would be; given the Universe is 13 billion years old, and galaxies formed almost immediately, then life can be assumed to have come forth anywhere in the universe during all that time. Now if we for the sake of easy math say; Universe could carry intelligent life for 10 billion years.
Then if someone shows up at our doorstep; they are 90% likely to be a billion years ahead of us. It is 99.99% probable that they are a million years ahead of us in scientific knowledge and reasearch. And it is 99.9999% likely that they are at least 10.000 years ahead of us.
Now given that science has been opened up to us for about a century or 2, and that we see it seems to go faster and faster. We have absolutely no idea where science will be in 10.000 years, let alone a million years.
The thought of 2 species happening to be at the same state of scientific level, given they could be anywhere in a 10 billion time frame, is so improbable that statistics throws it away.
Then if someone shows up at our doorstep; they are 90% likely to be a billion years ahead of us. It is 99.99% probable that they are a million years ahead of us in scientific knowledge and reasearch. And it is 99.9999% likely that they are at least 10.000 years ahead of us.
Now given that science has been opened up to us for about a century or 2, and that we see it seems to go faster and faster. We have absolutely no idea where science will be in 10.000 years, let alone a million years.
The thought of 2 species happening to be at the same state of scientific level, given they could be anywhere in a 10 billion time frame, is so improbable that statistics throws it away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_galaxiesJacco said:
Unless you want to ignore sattelite galaxies and are just skipping to Andromeda, plenty closer than that. To be fair, the 25,000 one has been marked as being disputed as counting as an actual galaxy, but still, a good few under the 300,000 mark.
In any case, bigger numbers only support the point my post was making.
I've always had the idea that if we were ever to find aliens, they would be "alien" to us. Everything they are/did/thought wouldn't make much if any sense to us. They might be made of gas, or not ever have to eat, and be fundamentally different from the stuff on Earth.
Assuming they are fairly similar to the kind of civilization we have now, the technology to travel through the amount of space to reach us in a lifetime would have some fairly substantial technology behind it, (Immense engines with insane fuels or some kind of wormhole) and they could easily be used as weapons.
Even if they had no concept of war or combat, and we the first species they were to come in contact with, they'd have a pretty easy time picking it up from us.
As for the main question, I don't believe that sciences as they stand today are vastly underdeveloped or overdeveloped as we tend to research and develop things we need/want. In addition, in previously unexplored technology fields, more advanced technology in other fields would probably greatly speed up the research. Imagine how quickly we'd have gotten to the moon if the technology for flight was given to us in the year, say, 1000.
Assuming they are fairly similar to the kind of civilization we have now, the technology to travel through the amount of space to reach us in a lifetime would have some fairly substantial technology behind it, (Immense engines with insane fuels or some kind of wormhole) and they could easily be used as weapons.
Even if they had no concept of war or combat, and we the first species they were to come in contact with, they'd have a pretty easy time picking it up from us.
As for the main question, I don't believe that sciences as they stand today are vastly underdeveloped or overdeveloped as we tend to research and develop things we need/want. In addition, in previously unexplored technology fields, more advanced technology in other fields would probably greatly speed up the research. Imagine how quickly we'd have gotten to the moon if the technology for flight was given to us in the year, say, 1000.
There is no real reason for us to travel (or aliens to travel from) other galaxies though, since there are plenty of solar systems and planets that could possibly support life in our own galaxy. Travel between galaxies really only makes sense with worm holes, other ways to bend space/time, or possibly ways to phase out of the universe all together (allowing it to move/rotate etc without you for awhile) and then phase back in, possibly an extreme distance away (even though you actually didn't move at all...everything else has drastically).
In theory...everything is relative...and all movement in the galaxy is relative to the initial explosion/movement....meaning that everything may be moving at a specific speed and direction..which could possibly be incredibly fast. Lights limit on speed could only be relative to other objects that have created light...meaning that if you where able to phase out...you could possibly travel thousands of light years in a second. Of course you would have no control over your direction etc, but....it's possible you could determine the direction/rotation etc..and plan for it...to determine how far/where you would show up after being out for so much time.
Anyway....as someone else mentioned, there has been plenty of time for sentient life to develop elsewhere..since we as an intelligent species have been around for such a short time. It seems highly unlikely that a very easy method of traveling vast distances is possible....as if it was possible it makes sense that any race that discovered it (or races) would quickly spread all over the place. While space is vast.....the amount of time such a race would have to expand, and the exponential growth as more and more planets where used as expansion points, would lead to eventually the race spreading throughout the entire universe.
I think, because of this, that travel at speeds faster then light is not possible. Travel through worm holes etc...is also not possible (at least survivable for any form of life). It makes sense that we are limited to traveling at speeds slower then the speed of light...and therefore, we are limited to only our own solar system and those that are relatively close to ours.
In addition, it makes sense that life is very rare indeed on planets....and that sentient life....is even more rare. Even when you do have sentient life, it's probably rare for the planet the life exists on to have the resources needed to eventually develop science to the point of long distance space travel (or for the life to ever reach space at all).
In such a case you might have something like a 1 in 10 million chance for a solar system to have a planet that can sustain life, and then actually develop life. Then you have a better chance for life to eventually develop that can use tools and develop higher thinking/science (say 1 in 1000). Then you have a fairly good chance that the planet the life develops on has the required materials, resources to reach space (say 1 in 100), and finally a fairly good chance that such a race would survive long enough to actually do so (1 in 10). All that together means something like a 1 in 10 trillion chance of actually having a planet support sentient life, that develops technology and survives long enough to reach space.
Now since it's estimated there is approximately 100 billion stars in our milky way galaxy...there is a very good chance we are the only planet in this galaxy that supports sentient life (let alone sentient life that can use tools, developed technology to the point of reaching space and survived long enough to do so).
On a galactic scale we are still babies....the question is...will we actually survive long enough to colonize other planets/moons in our own solar system, let alone beyond. The odds of that are not very good in our favor right now (I certainly wouldn't bet on it). If we do...it's likely that we might eventually dominate the entire galaxy.
There are estimated to be well over 100 billion galaxies in the universe btw....so it's VERY likely that life has developed in other galaxies...and in some of them reached the stars....terraformed other planets and started to spread throughout their galaxy. It's quite likely that there is at least one galactic civilization out there...and even probably one galaxy where more then one form of sentient life started to expand and met each other in space.
The chance of that happening here...in our galaxy is VERY small though (go buy a lottery ticket and your far more likely to win then you are to have that happening). So it's not very likely at all that aliens have visited earth...or ever will. I'd say we still are talking about less then a 1 in a million chance that we will ever reach another solar system let alone colonize one ourselves.
In theory...everything is relative...and all movement in the galaxy is relative to the initial explosion/movement....meaning that everything may be moving at a specific speed and direction..which could possibly be incredibly fast. Lights limit on speed could only be relative to other objects that have created light...meaning that if you where able to phase out...you could possibly travel thousands of light years in a second. Of course you would have no control over your direction etc, but....it's possible you could determine the direction/rotation etc..and plan for it...to determine how far/where you would show up after being out for so much time.
Anyway....as someone else mentioned, there has been plenty of time for sentient life to develop elsewhere..since we as an intelligent species have been around for such a short time. It seems highly unlikely that a very easy method of traveling vast distances is possible....as if it was possible it makes sense that any race that discovered it (or races) would quickly spread all over the place. While space is vast.....the amount of time such a race would have to expand, and the exponential growth as more and more planets where used as expansion points, would lead to eventually the race spreading throughout the entire universe.
I think, because of this, that travel at speeds faster then light is not possible. Travel through worm holes etc...is also not possible (at least survivable for any form of life). It makes sense that we are limited to traveling at speeds slower then the speed of light...and therefore, we are limited to only our own solar system and those that are relatively close to ours.
In addition, it makes sense that life is very rare indeed on planets....and that sentient life....is even more rare. Even when you do have sentient life, it's probably rare for the planet the life exists on to have the resources needed to eventually develop science to the point of long distance space travel (or for the life to ever reach space at all).
In such a case you might have something like a 1 in 10 million chance for a solar system to have a planet that can sustain life, and then actually develop life. Then you have a better chance for life to eventually develop that can use tools and develop higher thinking/science (say 1 in 1000). Then you have a fairly good chance that the planet the life develops on has the required materials, resources to reach space (say 1 in 100), and finally a fairly good chance that such a race would survive long enough to actually do so (1 in 10). All that together means something like a 1 in 10 trillion chance of actually having a planet support sentient life, that develops technology and survives long enough to reach space.
Now since it's estimated there is approximately 100 billion stars in our milky way galaxy...there is a very good chance we are the only planet in this galaxy that supports sentient life (let alone sentient life that can use tools, developed technology to the point of reaching space and survived long enough to do so).
On a galactic scale we are still babies....the question is...will we actually survive long enough to colonize other planets/moons in our own solar system, let alone beyond. The odds of that are not very good in our favor right now (I certainly wouldn't bet on it). If we do...it's likely that we might eventually dominate the entire galaxy.
There are estimated to be well over 100 billion galaxies in the universe btw....so it's VERY likely that life has developed in other galaxies...and in some of them reached the stars....terraformed other planets and started to spread throughout their galaxy. It's quite likely that there is at least one galactic civilization out there...and even probably one galaxy where more then one form of sentient life started to expand and met each other in space.
The chance of that happening here...in our galaxy is VERY small though (go buy a lottery ticket and your far more likely to win then you are to have that happening). So it's not very likely at all that aliens have visited earth...or ever will. I'd say we still are talking about less then a 1 in a million chance that we will ever reach another solar system let alone colonize one ourselves.
Er...670 million miles per hour? That's a measure of speed, not a measure of acceleration.wulfy42 said:
Anyway, as your speed increases, the acceleration you get from a set amount of power decreases, because your mass increases.
That's a point, yes, I was assuming they'd not immediately destroy everything.EvilRoy said:
I now that is a measure of speed, not acceleration. The acceleration was 1 million miles per hour, which would get you to a constant speed (relative to your starting point) of 335 million miles per hour, in about 14 days (at which time you stop accelerating). You need to factor in 14 days to decelerate as well at the end of the trip.thaluikhain said:
As far as needing more propulsion to achieve the same acceleration as you approach the speed of light, that is why I said we would stop at 1/2 the speed of light. The over all average acceleration would be 1 million miles per hour....that does not neccesarily mean it would be 1 mmph the whole way (or that it would even take only 14 days all together to achieve..it might be a bit longer. Since your talking about 8 years ....it really doesn't matter if the acceleration/deceleration time is 14 days or 28.
Because their technology would have to be so advanced to get to us, that naturally their offensive abilities would be bolstered just from the technology that's invented. Also, why the hell would a civilization with the intent to conquer our planet NOT have the best weapons they could possibly make?
If they come here to conquer us, they have hostile intentions. If they have weapons at all, and can have hostile intentions, they've fought either themselves, or other species before. Not having the best weaponry to match the rest of your technology would just...be very, very fucking stupid, if you expect to fight ever.
If they come here to conquer us, they have hostile intentions. If they have weapons at all, and can have hostile intentions, they've fought either themselves, or other species before. Not having the best weaponry to match the rest of your technology would just...be very, very fucking stupid, if you expect to fight ever.
I'm just saying if an alien race shows up to Earth, the fact that they got to Earth should be a big, red flag 
They obviously know something we don't.
They obviously know something we don't.
I was being pedantic really. I mean, what if these aliens can travel through space in Non-Space Ship methods? The Wing thing I know wouldn't work on it's own, but perhaps they have some kind of propulsion system in their wings that would let them fly through space. We need to take into consideration that you don't have to have a space ship to fly through space: Simply because we need one doesn't mean other's would.wulfy42 said:
Personally I think that even if human beings can't travel faster than light, we can solve the problem of travelling vast distances by developing technologies that increase human lifespan to enormous lengths. We know this is possible via nanotech and better medicine because we have seen huge advances in human lifespan already.
As to why we imagine aliens to be better at warfare than humans are, well, technologies tend to be allied. E.G. A rocket engine is really a devastating flame thrower, a propeller is a set of lethal slicing blades, and even a laser communication array needs to be strong enough to cut steel over interstellar distances.
Yes the aliens might be 100% pacifists, but that doesn't mean they can't be arseholes. Just because someone is a pacifist doesn't mean they are also a pleasant person, they may not try to kill you but they may think nothing of defrauding you, or using your culture against you. For a great example of a set of horrible pacifists, look at the Puppeteers from Larry Niven's Ringworld novels.
As to other reasons aliens are imagined as being more advanced, well, call it optimism that while we have to live on a planet peopled by ape-like retards, we can dream that somewhere out there is a species that isn't as stupid and contrarian as we seem to be.
As to why we imagine aliens to be better at warfare than humans are, well, technologies tend to be allied. E.G. A rocket engine is really a devastating flame thrower, a propeller is a set of lethal slicing blades, and even a laser communication array needs to be strong enough to cut steel over interstellar distances.
Yes the aliens might be 100% pacifists, but that doesn't mean they can't be arseholes. Just because someone is a pacifist doesn't mean they are also a pleasant person, they may not try to kill you but they may think nothing of defrauding you, or using your culture against you. For a great example of a set of horrible pacifists, look at the Puppeteers from Larry Niven's Ringworld novels.
As to other reasons aliens are imagined as being more advanced, well, call it optimism that while we have to live on a planet peopled by ape-like retards, we can dream that somewhere out there is a species that isn't as stupid and contrarian as we seem to be.
Well, I was figuring on one of two situations. Either they show up with intent to harm and fire away on arrival or we piss them off somehow and/or fire first and they return fire before our first shots reach them.thaluikhain said:
Well...maybe. There may be limits to this, some things might just not be able to be extended.Able Seaman Staines said:
Really, we haven't seen huge increases in human lifespans, we've seen huge increase in average human lifespan. Octavius, for example, died in 14 AD in his late seventies. Nowdays that's quite normal in the western world.
That's true...for that matter, what if they want to help humnaity, but don't bother trying to understand any of the issues and assume they automatically know best? Lots of human activists are like that, burdening others with their assistance so they can pat themselves on the back.Able Seaman Staines said:
Not sure if someone's already pulled you up on it, but this is incredibly unlikely. Alien species would almost certainly be the product of evolution just as they are on Earth, and in order for evolution to take place there needs to be competition (otherwise they just stay the same, like sharks). So the tendency to fight each other for resources would be just as instinctually ingrained as it is in us.IceForce said:
That said, human technology has advanced to such a degree that we could annihilate ourselves with the push of a button (or strip the planet of all its resources and starve to death), so it's possible that any species that manages to break beyond self-annihilation is a species that have overcome their natural instincts to compete violently, so a visiting alien race might not be hostile. On the other hand, unless they have wormhole technology or something any ship that sets sail for Earth is on a one way trip, and the most likely reason for that would be for colonisation.