Why do you not believe the indoctrination theory? *Major Spoilers*

[SS2Dante]

EDIT - PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING
http://www.gameseyeview.com/2012/03/15/why-i-liked-the-mass-effect-3-ending-eventually/
Just to stop me having to repeat stuff

SECOND EDIT - OR VIEW A VIDEO EXPLANATION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

Ok, so after the ending of Mass Effect 3, I was presented with the indoctrination theory/interpretation of the ending. This version seemed to make so much sense that I simply can't believe the literal ending.

To make sure we're all on the same page, here's a short article explianing this view of the ending - http://www.gameseyeview.com/2012/03/15/why-i-liked-the-mass-effect-3-ending-eventually/

I've noticed that a lot of people reject this idea, though. Can I ask why? For me, the two endings can be contrasted in terms of plot holes.

Literal ending - Who is the Catalyst, how did Anderson get ahead of you on the citadel, why did Joker run away, how did your squadmates all end up on the Normandy from earth, why isn't the galaxy destroyed by the mass relay explosions, how did Joker survive the explosion to land on a planet. Also, (and this is key) the extra scene you get if you choose the destroy ending. Any others I've missed?

Indoctrination ending - Tali appearing in the final scene if she's your LI (clashes with my view that she'd be imagined in Rannoch)

So, can anyone explain to me why they still believe the literal ending, or give me a plot hole caused by the indoctrination ending? It just seems if we have these two endings one is more convincing than the other.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm trying not to think about all of the endings really. The first makes no bloody sense, comes right out of nowhere, and the whole indoctrination theory is just people desperatly trying to come up with an explination for the hastily put together mess so that they can have some form of closure, which depresses me, that's how bad the endings are, people are doing everything that they can to get something better, even if that something is "it was all just a dream".

 

[SS2Dante]

erttheking did you read the article I posted? The indoctrination theory isn't that "it was all just a dream', and it links into things that happen way earlier in the game. It is also the only explanation that explains the extra scene when you do the red ending.

Hmm, that came off more aggressive than I meant. I just mean, could you tell me what you find so hard to believe about the indoctrination idea?

 

[Zhukov]

Mostly because it reeks of desperation.

"Nooooo, the ending wasn't really Bioware dropping a dollop of doggy doo on top of my ice cream, it was actually a clever and subversive twist!"

I can sympathize with such notions, oh can I ever sympathize, but I'm not buying into them.

It does make a certain degree of sense, but I'm pretty sure that's due to the endings being changed fairly late in the development process. They were originally planning for Shepard to get indoctrinated at some point in the game, then swapped it out for the assorted bullshit without bothering to remove the old clues and foreshadowing.

Besides, the indoctrination thing, while slightly better, would still leave the endings awfully inconclusive and unsatisfying. If Shepard was tripping on Reaper brain juice the whole time, then what the fuck really happened?

 

[SS2Dante]

Mostly because it smacks of desperation.

"Nooooo, the ending wasn't really Bioware dropping a dollop of doggy doo on top of my ice cream, it was actually a clever and subversive twist!"

I can sympathize with such notions, oh can I ever sympathize, but I'm not buying into them.

It does make a certain degree of sense, but I'm pretty sure that's due to the endings being changed fairly late in the development process. They were originally planning for Shepard to get indoctrinated at some point in the game, then swapped it out for the assorted bullshit without bothering to remove the old clues and foreshadowing.

Besides, the indoctrination thing, while slightly better, would still leave the endings awfully inconclusive and unsatisfying. If Shepard was tripping on Reaper brain juice the whole time, then what the fuck really happened?

That was my reaction at first

Also, yes, the ending was originally that the player lost control of Shepard entirely as you were indoctrinated. This was dropped because the new gameplay mechanic proved too difficult to implement. Doesn't it make sense that they would keep the idea but drop the new mechanic?

Ok, again, I direct your attention to the article that explains this, but the point is that Shepard was knocked unconscious when Harbingers beam hits him/her during the final charge. The next few minutes are the Reapers continuing the process of indoctrination that has been going on throughout the game.

May I ask then why you think you get an extra scene if you choose the red ending?

 

[Nimcha]

It's really funny actually. If anyone ever wondered how conspiracy theories get started, well this is how.

 

[coolguy5678]

It depends on what you mean by "believe". IT is a plausible an elegant explanation for the end of ME3, which otherwise makes little sense, so in that respect I believe that it's true. However I'm becoming more skeptical that Bioware intended it.

Besides, the indoctrination thing, while slightly better, would still leave the endings awfully inconclusive and unsatisfying. If Shepard was tripping on Reaper brain juice the whole time, then what the fuck really happened?

One hypothesis is that Bioware plans to release the "true" ending later on, as free DLC (or possibly paid DLC, if they're feeling particularly evil), and that it's all a big meta/ARG/troll situation where the playerbase is "indoctrinated" into believing a fake ending before the true ending is revealed. If this is true (and the DLC is free) then I'll have massive respect for Bioware, but I don't think it's likely.

May I ask then why you think you get an extra scene if you choose the red ending?

This is pretty simple. In the green and blue endings, you see Shepard "disintegrate" on screen, so there's no way he/she possibly could have survived. In the red ending, there's a small chance that Shepard may have survived (assuming the extra scene takes place on the Citadel and not back on Earth), so the extra scene seems more plausible.

Something I find hard to explain without IT, and seems like a direct hint, is that when Starkid first sees Shepard, he says "Wake up" if you have high EMS and "What are you doing here?" if you have low EMS. If IT is true, this is easily explained by saying that, with high EMS, someone survived and is telling Shepard's unconscious body to wake up, which is manifesting inside Shepard's hallucination as Starkid telling him to wake up (which is a common cliche in TV and film). Without IT I see know reason for this to depend on EMS.

However, assuming that Starkid is made up by the Reapers, and the Reapers want Shepard to pick green or blue, why would they choose to have Starkid take the form of the child they killed at the beginning of the game, which we know Shepard feels angry about? Reminding Shepard of this child would only encourage Shepard to pick red out of anger towards the Reapers.

 

[SS2Dante]

It depends on what you mean by "believe". IT is a plausible an elegant explanation for the end of ME3, which otherwise makes little sense, so in that respect I believe that it's true. However I'm becoming more skeptical that Bioware intended it.

Besides, the indoctrination thing, while slightly better, would still leave the endings awfully inconclusive and unsatisfying. If Shepard was tripping on Reaper brain juice the whole time, then what the fuck really happened?

One hypothesis is that Bioware plans to release the "true" ending later on, as free DLC (or possibly paid DLC, if they're feeling particularly evil), and that it's all a big meta/ARG/troll situation where the playerbase is "indoctrinated" into believing a fake ending before the true ending is revealed. If this is true (and the DLC is free) then I'll have massive respect for Bioware, but I don't think it's likely.

I can certainly understand your position, and I suppose that at this point it really is that time will tell. I simply find it hard to believe that Bioware, after making 3 games praised for incredible storytelling, would suddenly lose all of this 5 mins before the end. Plus, so far noone has pointed out ANY flaws in the indoctrination idea - every new thing seems to support it.

Anyway, even if no DLC is released, I still think that this ending makes more sense than taking it literally. It's a lot sadder, but it's more true to the universe. Thanks for replying!

 

[SS2Dante]

It's really funny actually. If anyone ever wondered how conspiracy theories get started, well this is how.

Fair enough. Any particular parts of this conspiracy theory you want to take apart? That's what I'm trying to get in this discussion but so far no-one has answered this question.

 

[Zhukov]

Ok, again, I direct your attention to the article that explains this, but the point is that Shepard was knocked unconscious when Harbingers beam hits him/her during the final charge. The next few minutes are the Reapers continuing the process of indoctrination that has been going on throughout the game.

Yeah, I've read the articles and watched the videos.

Like I said, it does make some sense. However, one particular phrase comes to mind: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." Just replace "malice" with "convoluted brilliance" and you have my viewpoint.

And, once again, the indoctrination thing still leaves the ending in a shitty place. If Shepard is being brain-raped by hallucinations then we still have no idea what the hell happened. No, closure, no satisfaction, no resolution.

Christ, in retrospect I wish they had just gone with a stock-standard "lots of little blue children" ending. Sure, it would have been unimaginative as all hell, but it have been a dan sight better than this reeking mess.

 

[SS2Dante]

Ok, again, I direct your attention to the article that explains this, but the point is that Shepard was knocked unconscious when Harbingers beam hits him/her during the final charge. The next few minutes are the Reapers continuing the process of indoctrination that has been going on throughout the game.

Yeah, I've read the articles and watched the videos.

Like I said, it does make some sense. However, one particular phrase comes to mind: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." Just replace "malice" with "convoluted brilliance" and you have my viewpoint.

And, once again, the indoctrination thing still leaves the ending in a shitty place. If Shepard is being brain-raped by hallucinations then we still have no idea what the hell happened. No, closure, no satisfaction, no resolution.

Christ, in retrospect I wish they had just gone with a stock-standard "lots of little blue children" ending. Sure, it would have been unimaginative as all hell, but it have been a dan sight better than this reeking mess.

Depends what you mean by closure. If you chose the blue or green endings you give in to the Reapers and become a husk. Pretty obvious what happens after that. Sad ending.

- side note - I love the green ending in this way. Make a new being, the pinnacle of evolution, both synthetic and organic. How did I NOT notice that this describes a Reaper?

If you chose red you get the special scene of Shepard waking up in the ruins of London. Cliffhanger ending.

Again, I can appreciate it can't be proven, but if you don't believe this then how do you explain the inclusion of that extra scene in the red ending?

 

[Zhukov]

Depends what you mean by closure. If you chose the blue or green endings you give in to the Reapers and become a husk. Pretty obvious what happens after that. Sad ending.

- side note - I love the green ending in this way. Make a new being, the pinnacle of evolution, both synthetic and organic. How did I NOT notice that this describes a Reaper?

If you chose red you get the special scene of Shepard waking up in the ruins of London. Cliffhanger ending.

But if Shepard was hallucinating then how do you know any of that really happened? You can't have it both ways.

And even if I accept that the child stuff was hallucination and the rest was real, that doesn't fix much. A lot of the bullshit occurs during the final ending cutscene.

Again, I can appreciate it can't be proven, but if you don't believe this then how do you explain the inclusion of that extra scene in the red ending?

Like I said.

Incompetence.

The ending was nonsensical 11th-hour bullshit on every level. Bioware dropping the ball in spectacular fashion strikes me as the more plausible explanation for this.

 

[SS2Dante]

It depends on what you mean by "believe". IT is a plausible an elegant explanation for the end of ME3, which otherwise makes little sense, so in that respect I believe that it's true. However I'm becoming more skeptical that Bioware intended it.

Besides, the indoctrination thing, while slightly better, would still leave the endings awfully inconclusive and unsatisfying. If Shepard was tripping on Reaper brain juice the whole time, then what the fuck really happened?

One hypothesis is that Bioware plans to release the "true" ending later on, as free DLC (or possibly paid DLC, if they're feeling particularly evil), and that it's all a big meta/ARG/troll situation where the playerbase is "indoctrinated" into believing a fake ending before the true ending is revealed. If this is true (and the DLC is free) then I'll have massive respect for Bioware, but I don't think it's likely.

May I ask then why you think you get an extra scene if you choose the red ending?

This is pretty simple. In the green and blue endings, you see Shepard "disintegrate" on screen, so there's no way he/she possibly could have survived. In the red ending, there's a small chance that Shepard may have survived (assuming the extra scene takes place on the Citadel and not back on Earth), so the extra scene seems more plausible.

Something I find hard to explain without IT, and seems like a direct hint, is that when Starkid first sees Shepard, he says "Wake up" if you have high EMS and "What are you doing here?" if you have low EMS. If IT is true, this is easily explained by saying that, with high EMS, someone survived and is telling Shepard's unconscious body to wake up, which is manifesting inside Shepard's hallucination as Starkid telling him to wake up (which is a common cliche in TV and film). Without IT I see know reason for this to depend on EMS.

However, assuming that Starkid is made up by the Reapers, and the Reapers want Shepard to pick green or blue, why would they choose to have Starkid take the form of the child they killed at the beginning of the game, which we know Shepard feels angry about? Reminding Shepard of this child would only encourage Shepard to pick red out of anger towards the Reapers.

Um , the citadel blows up at the end. You can see it start to explode when it fires the beam at the Mass Relays. Sorry, but I don't believe for a second Shepard could survive that

He says "wake up" because Shepard has 'fainted' in his/her dream from the exhaustion of fighting the illusive man (read: resisting indoctrination that far). They try again, but this time Shepards will (aka Anderson) is gone, so it appears much more appealing. He says "what are you doing here" if you have low EMS because they aren't actively trying to indoctrinate you because they don't need to. That's why if you get a low enough EMS you don't get the blue or green endings.

Did you not read the article? The point is that the child never existed. Go back and watch all the scenes with him in it. No-one else see's the child, or interacts with it in any way. The only thing the child says to Shepard is "Everyones dying" and "You can't save me". It's a manifestation of the Reapers, trying to get Shepard to crack. This also explains the dreams, particularly the last one, where the other Shepard hugs the child and smirks at you as they burn.

From the codex on "Indoctrination"

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of ?being watched? and hallucinations of ?ghostly? presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim?s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as ?alien? voices in the mind."

 

[SS2Dante]

Depends what you mean by closure. If you chose the blue or green endings you give in to the Reapers and become a husk. Pretty obvious what happens after that. Sad ending.

- side note - I love the green ending in this way. Make a new being, the pinnacle of evolution, both synthetic and organic. How did I NOT notice that this describes a Reaper?

If you chose red you get the special scene of Shepard waking up in the ruins of London. Cliffhanger ending.

But if Shepard was hallucinating then how do you know any of that really happened? You can't have it both ways.

And even if I accept that the child stuff was hallucination and the rest was real, that doesn't fix much. A lot of the bullshit occurs during the final ending cutscene.

Again, I can appreciate it can't be proven, but if you don't believe this then how do you explain the inclusion of that extra scene in the red ending?

Like I said.

Incompetence.

The ending was nonsensical 11th-hour bullshit on every level. I think Bioware dropping the ball in spectacular fashion strikes me as a more plausible explanation for this.

No, you misunderstand: the ending cutscenes are all in Shepards head. They're symbolic of what Shepard believes his/her choice will cause. Every crewmember throughout the game expresses a desire to go somewhere 'far away' where they can just sit and relax. Shepard constructs this reality in the ending cutscene. Notice how even if you choose synthesis nothing changes, Joker and EDI remain separate entities.

The final red cutscene however, can ONLY be obtained if you choose the 'fight' option (aka resist indoctrination). You see the symbolic bit, then the final part is the ruins of London and Shepard waking up. The point is you ONLY wake up if you chose the fight option (which is framed as the renegade choice, the choice that will result in millions of innocents dead).

 

[Xpheyel]

But regardless of what you choose, isn't the post-credits scene the same?

That would mean in the blue and green endings it's some kind of hallucination while in the red ending the same scene is literally true?

I think it's more likely that they planned indoctrination endings that were cut, then reused the assets from them anyway. All the bits that would've been hints that that was what was really going on end up just being awkward execution. Also, considering the background of the post credits sequence is a desktop wallpaper, it seems like a rush job all around. They would certainly reuse their own assets in that case.

 

[synobal]

It's really funny actually. If anyone ever wondered how conspiracy theories get started, well this is how.

I was sort of thinking the same thing. I've read all the 'indoctrination' theories and really they seem mostly to be grasping at straws. Sure it is 'possible' but there is no reason to do it.

 

[SS2Dante]

But regardless of what you choose, isn't the post-credits scene the same?

That would mean in the blue and green endings it's some kind of hallucination while in the red ending the same scene is literally true?

I think it's more likely that they planned indoctrination endings that were cut, then reused the assets from then anyway. All the hints that would've been hints that that was what was really going on end up just being awkward execution. Also, considering the background of the post credits sequence is a desktop wallpaper, it seems like a rush job all around. They would certainly reuse their own assets in that case.

That's the most unclear part. From what I understand it's a framing device - it isn't dependent on Shepards survival, since the person is telling Shepards story a long time afterwards. It's also important in that it ends with 'one more story...' hinting there's something untold.

See, people keep saying that, but like I said the red ending has an extra scene. It's short, but still probably took a lot of man hours to put in. An additional scene that makes no sense is not something you put in the game if you are rushing.

 

[SS2Dante]

It's really funny actually. If anyone ever wondered how conspiracy theories get started, well this is how.

I was sort of thinking the same thing. I've read all the 'indoctrination' theories and really they seem mostly to be grasping at straws. Sure it is 'possible' but there is no reason to do it.

Again, I'm fine with this reasoning, but so far no-one has given me a reason NOT to believe this theory. Usually conspiracy theories are easy to pick apart. If you don't believe it fine, find me ANY logical flaw in the theory and we'll discuss it. The problem is, no-one has yet.

 

[SS2Dante]

Because it is the wonkiest thing I have ever seen! Have you read some of those threads
"oh look at this random screenshot, it looks like Kaidan/Ashley's armor, ergo, the indoctrination is true"

I've never seen people so willing to decieve theirselves. And for what? The slim possibility that Bioware will ammend their mistake? That their virtual hubby will be ressurected? it's pathetic. it speaks ill of their cause when they are so infatuated with gaming romances. I know the ending has problems that extend past the "happy ending" thing. but most people aren't bitching about the overall descent in writing quality they are bitching about BLUE BABEES.


The indoctrination theory is just the overall collapse of their fantasy. They can't handle reality, so they spin together some loopy ass shit to get them over it.

Once again, cool, okay, people are being crazy. Read the article I attached and point out the flaws. There should be some, if people are just being nutty and making shit up. So far not one person here has given me any logical flaws with this theory.

Also, I'm fine with the ending as it is. In my ending I became a husk and the Reapers won. I'm fine with that, because it makes sense. I'm not looking for a 'happy ending'.