Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

CaitSeith

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I don't know. It's a little difficult to say which ones are equivalent to male or female after the first two.



Other than that, no comments...
 

kenu12345

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Fischgopf said:
kenu12345 said:
Zenja said:
kenu12345 said:
Zenja said:
Wow, 4 pages. I am more in agreement with this guy's view.


There are only two genders and your biology determines it. If you want to change you biology then do so, however, don't expect me to play along with your make believe views.
I ain't really in for discussion but these sort of posts always made me curious. After the transition and everything, how would you even know they are so that you can tell them they are really their pre transition sex
If a guy gets an operation to be a girl, that guy is now a girl - that used to be a guy. However, to not disclose that information in a relationship is extremely fucked up. Gender reassignment is your partner's business as it could stem into multiple aspects of the relationship down the road. If some stranger on the sidewalk had a gender reassignment surgery, it is none of my business and I don't care. Whatever you have the parts of is what you are. But I shouldn't be asked to call someone with a penis a girl or someone with a vagina a man. If you are one of those people that have both, I could see the person choosing gender. However, most of those cases has 1 gender very noticeably more pronounced than the other.
I don't think I ever mentioned relationships. Generally there, this stuff is mentioned. Your initial post, at least as I interpretted it and I apologise if I misread it, seemed to go along the lines of 'It doesn't matter if you transitioned or whatever, I won't say you are that gender' Either way, even in your post there is alot of ambiguity. For instance, I have a friend who naturally has a hormone problem thus he looks like a female. Now this is assuming you are a decent human being and don't barge into people's pants or under their skirts to look at their genitals but how would you know then. By your logic, you could assume he was trans even though he's a dude and just be calling him a she for no good reason cause of some honestly insignificant reason. Same applies to trans people that are taking hormones, there comes a point where you don't know their sex and you are just assuming.
You do understand that not all Trans people pass, right?

If you are going MtF and you were androgynous to begin with, you'll probably pass. If you however have been through puberty it could be a different story, you might have too pronounced masculine facial features to really pass as a woman, at least not without major surgery I guess.
I don't believe that I have said other wise honestly
 

Zenja

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kenu12345 said:
I don't think I ever mentioned relationships. Generally there, this stuff is mentioned. Your initial post, at least as I interpreted it and I apologize if I misread it, seemed to go along the lines of 'It doesn't matter if you transitioned or whatever, I won't say you are that gender' Either way, even in your post there is alot of ambiguity. For instance, I have a friend who naturally has a hormone problem thus he looks like a female. Now this is assuming you are a decent human being and don't barge into people's pants or under their skirts to look at their genitals but how would you know then. By your logic, you could assume he was trans even though he's a dude and just be calling him a she for no good reason cause of some honestly insignificant reason. Same applies to trans people that are taking hormones, there comes a point where you don't know their sex and you are just assuming.
Mostly I think my post is unambiguous and pretty straight forward. However, if I mistake a guy for being a girl, because that is what they look like, I will apologize. However, if they get offended and act out over it, I may not be so polite. It isn't my responsibility to cater to everyone else's preconceptions just as it isn't theirs to cater to mine. The girl in the McDonalds restaurant comes to mind. Mistakes happen, and considering that the trans argument is that nature itself made a mistake, then you would think that trans people would be more understanding of someone mistaking their gender instead of getting so upset about it.

If you look like a girl, I will call you a girl. If you look like a trans man, I will call you a man. If you tell me I am wrong and mistook your gender, I will probably apologize as if it were a simple mistake - unless you are an ass about it. However, if the guy next to me in the bathroom says he is a girl as he is pissing in the next urinal over, I am not going to be able to take him seriously. But there is multiple problems socially with that scenario and to be honest if a guy did that I am going to be ready to knock him out if he gets too close.

Overall, you ARE going to come off as the gender you display traits of. If a man is dressed as a woman but has a big Adams apple showing, most people are going to call him a man and get a chuckle out of it. If he looks the part, no one will know anyways. Mistaken identity is a thing that happens. But if you have a penis, you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female at the end of the day.
 

kenu12345

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Zenja said:
However, if I mistake a guy for being a girl, because that is what they look like, I will apologize. However, if they get offended and act out over it, I may not be so polite.
This is generally the thing I think most people should do honestly. No point to being offended whether you are against trans people are or are one. Just takes more effort and irritation to be offended but something. Generally how I feel is that it doesn't matter what someone called long as they ain't rude. It's why I've grown tired of these sorts of discussion cause most of the time it seems to come from a position of inherent out of your way disrespect like you would see on some youtube edgelord's channel. Though I do feel like you may be caricaturing trans people there a bit in the last bit of the first paragraph. Honestly if you are up for calling someone people whatever, I really don't see the issue honestly
 

Silvanus

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008Zulu said:
I will show you my proof, if you show me yours. You made a claim first don't forget.
In our interaction, you made a claim first, in this post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.948749-Why-does-virtually-every-non-binary-gender-go-back-to-m-f#23946616]-- claiming that you could provide "thousands" of sources (that we're still waiting for), and claiming that "DNA determines your gender". That was before any post of mine in response to yours, so no, I didn't make a claim first.

Anyway, fine. Here: 1 [http://jap.physiology.org/content/99/3/785], 2 [http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1980-05376-001], 3 [https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf]

Journal of Applied Physiology said:
"Accordingly, it is imperative that scientists and editors come to a consensus on these terms to alleviate any confusion in their usage. These words have specifically different etymologies and meanings. In the most basic sense, sex is biologically determined and gender is culturally determined."
American Psychological Association said:
"The term "gender" is introduced for those characteristics and traits socioculturally considered appropriate to males and females. The rationale for this addition to the psychological vocabulary is that the term "sex" implies biological mechanisms."
American Psychiatric Association said:
"Gender (n): the condition of being male, female, or neuter. In a human context, the distinction between gender and SEX reflects the usage of these terms: Sex usually refers to the biological aspects of maleness or femaleness, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female (i.e., masculinity or femininity.)"
 

Wolf Hagen

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For me, theres only 4 legit ones:
Male, Female, Herm (natural born, build up d**kgirls don't count) and trans (aka: under concruction genderwise) and only the first three have something to be on a form, since cutting off stuff from babies and getting them on a lifelong Hormone Therapy is something that is finally dying out.

Crossdressers aren't a gender.
Heavy Tank and attac helicopter isn't one.
Genderfluid is what again.
Agender isn't one.
And no, Mayonaise ain't one either.

The problem seemes to be, that the LGBT movement was build up on tolerance.
They got quite SOME of their maingoals in the bag (still not 100% though), but in the western world, it seemes like they took on the makebelieve of some who are reeeeeaaaaally into what they made up and some ran with it.

Thrust me, even within the old LGBT circles this thing gets discussed back and forth, wherever standing in for those (marginally few I gotto say) is the right thing, or if it ridicules the message of the main goal (aka: tolerance and rights for the LGBT). Unsurprizingly, I'm in the latter camp.
 

Delicious Anathema

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CaitSeith said:
I don't know. It's a little difficult to say which ones are equivalent to male or female after the first two.

http://greyspaceconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Pronouns-HTWG.png

Other than that, no comments...
And this is why you don't let liberalism go unchallenged.
 

Sight Unseen

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Zontar said:
I do believe that there is a small minority of men who are born with their brains wired like a woman, and vice versa. If there is any evidence something beyond that exists, no one in academia has elected to reveal it to the rest of academia or the general public.
This whole "male but their brain is wired as a female" (or vice versa) concept makes no sense at all. The main driver of physical sexual differences are the amounts and ratios of hormones created and secreted into the body. Do you know what controls the secretion of hormones? The pituitary gland, which is in the base of the brain. If the trans person really had a brain that was wired to be the wrong sex, why would it still secrete the hormones of their biological sex?
 

MHR

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Sight Unseen said:
Zontar said:
I do believe that there is a small minority of men who are born with their brains wired like a woman, and vice versa. If there is any evidence something beyond that exists, no one in academia has elected to reveal it to the rest of academia or the general public.
This whole "male but their brain is wired as a female" (or vice versa) concept makes no sense at all. The main driver of physical sexual differences are the amounts and ratios of hormones created and secreted into the body. Do you know what controls the secretion of hormones? The pituitary gland, which is in the base of the brain. If the trans person really had a brain that was wired to be the wrong sex, why would it still secrete the hormones of their biological sex?
Because the rest of the brain ended up atypical. I don't agree with having to recognize this fluidic gender nonsense, but even I know why this is happening.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
In our interaction, you made a claim first
Yes, I had confused your post with the one above it. My bad.

As for DNA determing your gender (the term I generally use to signify male or female, because some posters here think that sex is the physical act and not a relevant term for male or female), is the SRY protein. Which is a DNA binding protein, which is encoded by the SRY gene. The presence of which determines male sex. Referenced here [http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990Natur.348..448B].
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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bauke67 said:
Even if all those anomalies are somehow caused by humans, that does not in any way discredit their existence. It does not force them into your binary system. Even if you want to label them "freaks", which would just be insulting to them, that still nets you a trinary system of male, female and freak. You have to admit, at least in principle, that there is a weird fuzzy middleground, even if you reject a full on gliding scale.
I would not discredit their existence, nor would I be so disrespectful as to call them freaks.

Imagine it like a tree; Where Male and Female are at the base, and the multiple of variations branch off from it. We are a binary species, but there are divergents from the evolutionary norm.
 

Silvanus

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008Zulu said:
Yes, I had confused your post with the one above it. My bad.
No worries, easy to do.

As for DNA determing your gender (the term I generally use to signify male or female, because some posters here think that sex is the physical act and not a relevant term for male or female), is the SRY protein. Which is a DNA binding protein, which is encoded by the SRY gene. The presence of which determines male sex. Referenced here [http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990Natur.348..448B].
These are all referring to chromosomes largely determining biological sex at birth, which wasn't in dispute.

None of them refer to gender at all; one of the central points in each of my sources was that gender and sex are distinct, and do not always correlate.
 

bauke67

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008Zulu said:
bauke67 said:
Even if all those anomalies are somehow caused by humans, that does not in any way discredit their existence. It does not force them into your binary system. Even if you want to label them "freaks", which would just be insulting to them, that still nets you a trinary system of male, female and freak. You have to admit, at least in principle, that there is a weird fuzzy middleground, even if you reject a full on gliding scale.
I would not discredit their existence, nor would I be so disrespectful as to call them freaks.

Imagine it like a tree; Where Male and Female are at the base, and the multiple of variations branch off from it. We are a binary species, but there are divergents from the evolutionary norm.
Hmm yeah that sounds agreeable, but now it looks like we're not in disagreement anymore. The tree with offshoots is, I suppose, a reasonable approximation of reality. I guess the real question then becomes: how do we value/treat those branches? Are you sure you support this metafor, because it does imply that those branches can be called neither exactly male nor exactly female. Which means that you're just supporting a claim that nature is "mostly binary", which is arguably true, but doesn't it mean you concede the point?
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Delicious Anathema said:
Transition is the best way to deal with it, which is why post op suicide rates are still high. [http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/transgender-regret-is-real-even-if-the-media-tell-you-otherwise/] Right. In my opinion, having therapy to accept one's gender as it is or treating hormone/chemical imbalance instead of resorting to genital mutilation seems like a more fitting treatment. But of course no one will do research that kind of procedure, because it's "transphobic".

Also, when pronoun policing happens, people are forcing someone to accept their warped reality where they are the gender they claim to be. And let's not get into the new invented pronouns for gender fluid, genderless and two spirited people.
Rates of suicide are still high because stigmatization is still high. And trans people who recently elect for things like GRS to change documentation are more visible to abuse. But apparently this thought doesn't enter the heads of commentators such as yourself on the situationn, who assume that it's because somehow it's bad medicine. After all, maybe people being treated like garbage makes them depressed enough to kill themselves?

Nah, after all ... when does depression cause suicide?

Secondly, it would be transphobic because it pretends conversion therapy is useful or is a sufficient excuse for people like you not to accept basic neuroscience. In counterpoint, yes it is transphobic to accept the opinions of the scientifically illiterate to punish trans people by pretending they don't exist. Hence why rates of suicide decrease if it is correctly treated earlier rather than later, and why rates of suicide are not equal everywhere.
 

Silvanus

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Sight Unseen said:
This whole "male but their brain is wired as a female" (or vice versa) concept makes no sense at all. The main driver of physical sexual differences are the amounts and ratios of hormones created and secreted into the body. Do you know what controls the secretion of hormones? The pituitary gland, which is in the base of the brain. If the trans person really had a brain that was wired to be the wrong sex, why would it still secrete the hormones of their biological sex?
There's a pretty large gap in your knowledge about brain biology, there.

Firstly, hormonal balances are just one of many factors that result in sexual morphology.

Secondly, the pituitary gland is one of the controlling influences for some sexual-developmental hormones, but it is not the only one, and does not do so for all of them. The primary female hormones, for instance-- foremost estrogen and progesterone-- are actually secreted by the ovaries and certain endocrine tissues.

Thirdly, you've only referred very vaguely to how the brains of trans people are "wired" (mostly so you can dismiss it without actually addressing it with any depth or research). The human brain has numerous structural differences as well, quite aside from its hormonal role, and the difference in the brain structure of trans people has been documented [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/].

I really would suggest you actually read about the topic at hand.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
None of them refer to gender at all; one of the central points in each of my sources was that gender and sex are distinct, and do not always correlate.
I gathered from your sources that you were looking at it from a psychological viewpoint, I was looking at it from a genetic viewpoint.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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bauke67 said:
how do we value/treat those branches?
We start out as binary, but there is the potential for variation. There's a million shades of green, but they all start out as yellow and blue. As for how we treat them, the answer is deceptively easy. We treat them as humans.