Why I Wear Princess Leia's Metal Slave Bikini

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
Why I Wear Princess Leia's Metal Slave Bikini

There have been rumors that Disney is discontinuing new Slave Leia merchandise. It made me feel like some scruffy looking nerf herders still regard Leia's metal bikini as something for male enjoyment.

Read Full Article
 

maninahat

New member
Nov 8, 2007
3,003
0
0
Well this all seems a bit disagreeable. At the risk of unfairly reducing the arguments to absurdity, here is what I took from this article:

It starts with: "I don't mind wearing the bikini, therefore my argument is going to be more right about the bikini than those who didn't wear it."

The next point is: "human trafficking and sexual slavery exist, so therefore we can ignore this first world problem of objectifying women and potentially fetishing sexual slavery."

Then the next is "Han is captured in carbonite, how come no one is complaining about that? JK, but seriously."

[to answer the rhetorical joke question: because he wasn't wearing a metal thong at the time?]

Princess Leia is a badass and fairly subversive of the stereotype, with or without the damn bikini, but I can't see it as anything other than an excuse for some good old fashioned fanservice for the benefit of male viewers - I can't imagine George Lucas was terribly interested in what women might incidentally take away from it.

Also, it's not censorship for a child orientated company that is still making movies to want to step away from 80s era fanservice, or to stop making that sort of merchandise. Wear it all you like if you want, but the phrase "counterfeit feminists" takes the cake. Are we going to pretend legitimate feminists can't dislike the bikini? Hell, Carrie Fisher dislikes the bikini.
 

Redd the Sock

New member
Apr 14, 2010
660
0
0
It's sad how one group of women have such a strong voice over others. At least I'm getting laughs at defenders of this actually making "won't someone think of the children" arguments.

PS Great choice in EU comics.
 

shirkbot

New member
Apr 15, 2013
206
0
0
Symbols change in meaning over time. That it once was a symbol that resonated with feminists in the 80s is irrelevant to what it means to the majority today. And since the majority is Disney's primary market, they will act accordingly. If you disagree with Disney, more power to you, but this is what happens when giant corporations are allowed to act as cultural custodians.

That said, nobody is trying to take your metal bikini, and nobody is going to stop anyone from making them or wearing them if they are so inclined. I am sure the bikini will continue to live a full, happy life as part of pop-culture iconography even if you can't buy it from a store anymore.
 

stormtrooper9091

New member
Jun 2, 2010
377
0
0
Things like this keep SJWs alive. Please let them disappear. Nobody gives two shits about the god damn metal bikini, is this really the biggest problem on the internet right now? Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Censored by Mods. PM for Taboos
Mar 1, 2009
717
0
0
Well, it seem I'll be going against the current stream here but I agree with pretty much everything you said.
I don't really know what else to say.

By the way, your hair color is the exact same shade of red as my beard. Nice!
Ok, that sounded a lot less creepier in my head. Apologies.
 

maninahat

New member
Nov 8, 2007
3,003
0
0
stormtrooper9091 said:
Things like this keep SJWs alive. Please let them disappear. Nobody gives two shits about the god damn metal bikini, is this really the biggest problem on the internet right now? Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
It is an article series about cosplay, written by a cosplay enthusiast...what are the more important issues she should be talking about?
 

Pyrian

Hat Man
Legacy
Apr 21, 2020
701
8
13
San Diego, CA
Country
US
Gender
Male
stormtrooper9091 said:
Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
Sure! We could totally be arguing about whether Starbucks using red cups constitutes part of a war on Christmas.
 

LysanderNemoinis

Noble and oppressed Kekistani
Nov 8, 2010
232
0
0
stormtrooper9091 said:
Things like this keep SJWs alive. Please let them disappear. Nobody gives two shits about the god damn metal bikini, is this really the biggest problem on the internet right now? Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
Sadly, I have to disagree. I see a lot of intelligent, well-informed people make this argument, and I just don't see it happening. The politically correct crowd are always going to push their views down people's throat whether we argue with them or not. Is the bikini that big a deal? Probably not, but it's just one more thing. Because each time they get what they want, they're emboldened that much more. The only times they go away (if only temporarily) is if they're beaten in the realm of ideas, the marketplace, or the ballot box. Otherwise, if we just ignore them, they're going to keep things up while we just "hope they go away."
 

Sniper Team 4

New member
Apr 28, 2010
3,613
0
0
Pyrian said:
stormtrooper9091 said:
Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
Sure! We could totally be arguing about whether Starbucks using red cups constitutes part of a war on Christmas.
Dammit, you beat me to it!

Well put indeed! I never saw Leia as a sex symbol, dolled up, diminished, or whatever people want to call her when she wore that outfit. I still saw Leia as the "Into the garbage chute, flyboy!" woman, and of course she was going to save herself again. It's what she does. Jabba thought he could tame her, and paid for it. People who are just looking at the costume don't know Leia, don't see Leia, and don't know Star Wars.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

New member
Sep 6, 2009
3,808
0
0
I don't think it will matter ultimately. Cosplayers will continue to dress in it, and Disney's stand will be relegated as nothing more than a stunt. The bikini is an icon, and it always will be.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
LysanderNemoinis said:
The only times they go away (if only temporarily) is if they're beaten in the realm of ideas, the marketplace, or the ballot box.
You realize that this is an instance of the marketplace that you just mentioned deciding on its own,to get rid of the slave Leia outfit and not the result of any popular petitions or internet hashtag activism, right? They, presumably, think it would be more profitable to halt production than to continue it, so they halt it because that is how a multi-billion dollar business works.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!
 

LysanderNemoinis

Noble and oppressed Kekistani
Nov 8, 2010
232
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
LysanderNemoinis said:
The only times they go away (if only temporarily) is if they're beaten in the realm of ideas, the marketplace, or the ballot box.
You realize that this is an instance of the marketplace that you just mentioned deciding on its own,to get rid of the slave Leia outfit and not the result of any popular petitions or internet hashtag activism, right? They, presumably, think it would be more profitable to halt production than to continue it, so they halt it because that is how a multi-billion dollar business works.
I said in my original post that I don't consider this instance that big of a deal, and I personally could care less. My point to the person I was just disagreeing with was over the idea that ignoring whiny, politically correct people doesn't make the go away, it merely allows them to push through what they want unobstructed.
 

Redvenge

New member
Oct 14, 2014
27
0
0
Now children can reenact scenes from Jabba's Palace that are less problematic. Like torturing droids and feeding scantily clad alien women to monsters.
 

Jute88

New member
Sep 17, 2015
148
0
0
Sniper Team 4 said:
Pyrian said:
stormtrooper9091 said:
Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
Sure! We could totally be arguing about whether Starbucks using red cups constitutes part of a war on Christmas.
Dammit, you beat me to it!

Well put indeed! I never saw Leia as a sex symbol, dolled up, diminished, or whatever people want to call her when she wore that outfit. I still saw Leia as the "Into the garbage chute, flyboy!" woman, and of course she was going to save herself again. It's what she does. Jabba thought he could tame her, and paid for it. People who are just looking at the costume don't know Leia, don't see Leia, and don't know Star Wars.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I never saw Leia wearing a bikini sexy, because the whole situation was uncomfortable and humiliating to her, and to the viewer as well.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

New member
Oct 1, 2009
1,544
0
0
How about you keep your metal bikini and I get to buy my son non-sexualized children's toys in a few years? Does that sound like a fair deal? I am sure most of us have nothing against the idea of cosplaying "slave Leia" for those that want to do that, but if the rumor is true Disney certainly has the right idea regarding merch that is mostly aimed at children to begin with. Besides, Leia wears a lot of other cool outfits in the movies, maybe it is time for them to shine.
 

Luminous_Umbra

New member
Sep 25, 2011
117
0
0
Truly, a fantastic read and a great explanation about this mess. In particular...

"Yes, it's true that many people fetishize Leia's metal bikini, but people fetishize practically every heroic geeky female character ever created. Could you see DC completely retiring classic Wonder Woman merchandise just because some people do pervy things with it? Licensing money says no. Should we also ban Disney's animated Robin Hood because of furry porn? No. Furries are awesome."

I cannot applaud this point enough.
 

Rednog

New member
Nov 3, 2008
2,764
0
0
Gethsemani said:
How about you keep your metal bikini and I get to buy my son non-sexualized children's toys in a few years? Does that sound like a fair deal? I am sure most of us have nothing against the idea of cosplaying "slave Leia" for those that want to do that, but if the rumor is true Disney certainly has the right idea regarding merch that is mostly aimed at children to begin with. Besides, Leia wears a lot of other cool outfits in the movies, maybe it is time for them to shine.
No one is asking you nor telling you to buy slave Leia toys for your kid. You make it sound like there are 0 alternative toys and there's only slave Leia version of the toys out there.
Searching "Leia" on Toys R Us. Has 4 toy sets of non slave Leias, the only appearance of slave Leia is in 2 decal sets.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

New member
Oct 1, 2009
1,544
0
0
Rednog said:
No one is asking you nor telling you to buy slave Leia toys for your kid. You make it sound like there are 0 alternative toys and there's only slave Leia version of the toys out there.
Searching "Leia" on Toys R Us. Has 4 toy sets of non slave Leias, the only appearance of slave Leia is in 2 decal sets.
And Kerzner is making it sound as if Disney is about to attempt a global wide seizing of all slave Leia merch in existence and shaming everyone found in possession of one. This is not the issue that everyone is making it out to be, especially not for the Cosplay community where I doubt the metal bikini is going to wane in popularity any time soon.

All I am saying is that I think this is a rather decent business move, if it turns out to be true.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
chocolate pickles said:
Better hope the SJW's and morality police don't get wind of this. They'll have a field day.
They already caught wind of it, mostly because the sort of people who can't help but complain about SJWs at every single opportunity just can't help themselves but get loud and obnoxious over every tiny thing a company does that might appeal to them. See also: Skullgirls changing a few frame of animation on some of their characters and Capcom moving a camera angle slightly.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
If she said:

"I like the bikini outfit because it's sexy and cool, and I think it's dumb to hide sexy costumes, so I'll wear it even more in protest for Disney's dumb sex-ophobic plan"

....I couldn't have agreed more.

But no, she said:

"I wear the bikini outfit because IT'S EMPOWERING!!!"

....and that's kinda ridiculous.
 

RJ Dalton

New member
Aug 13, 2009
1,633
0
0
That line about choking Jabba with the very chain he was using to try and keep Leia under his control is exactly what I about the article where they were talking about Disney discontinuing it.

As an asexual guy, I've never fetishized Leia's slave outfit (this might only be because I have no interest in sexuality, but let's pretend I'm just a nice guy for now; it makes me feel better), and much about feminism just kinda shoots past me because I pay little attention to political movements, but as a storyteller, I thought the turnaround of having Jabba attempt to dehumanize Leia, only to have it be his very undoing was the most appropriate way to take the fat bastard out. He's undone by his own failings.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
1,925
0
0
Wow people are really taking the bikini thing seriously, huh.

Wear what you want, but calling people "counterfeit feminists" for disliking a bikini is kind of silly.
You have every right to like the bikini, I have every right to not like it. I really don't think that makes me a better or worse feminist.

Oh well.
Tell you what, though, I bet Star Wars toys are selling more right now, what with all the righteous indignation from those who like the bikini. Well played, Disney.
 

Space Jawa

New member
Feb 2, 2010
455
0
0
Phasmal said:
Wow people are really taking the bikini thing seriously, huh.
I highly suspect it's because it's merely the latest part of a much larger trend, and with the trend now hitting things as iconic as the PLMSB, it's giving them all the more reason to take the matter seriously.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?

OT: You tell them!
 

ThatOtherGirl

New member
Jul 20, 2015
249
0
0
Phasmal said:
Wow people are really taking the bikini thing seriously, huh.

Wear what you want, but calling people "counterfeit feminists" for disliking a bikini is kind of silly.
You have every right to like the bikini, I have every right to not like it. I really don't think that makes me a better or worse feminist.

Oh well.
Tell you what, though, I bet Star Wars toys are selling more right now, what with all the righteous indignation from those who like the bikini. Well played, Disney.
I think "counterfeit feminists" is more a point about how these people are approaching feminism. I've seen the idea thrown around a few times, though not in such direct language. Here is the basic idea as I understand it, though I am not saying I agree with any part of it:

The basic idea of feminism is concerned with expanding freedom and equality for women, generally allowing them to self determine. Now, women have been legally equal for some time, but that has not meant as much as it should because women are not social equal. There are limits placed on women of what they are socially allowed to do (the penalty for which is being shunned, shamed, and often loss of opportunities). The idea is that these people professing to be feminist are working against the ideal of women being able to self determine by making it socially unacceptable for a woman to do certain things, such as wear sexy clothing.

Women, and cosplayers in particular, who enjoy dressing in sexy clothes are often targeted by these feminists as bimbos and sluts that are willingly subjugating themselves to the male gaze. There is a strong and growing stigma against women who would dare to dress sexy, and this stigma is being purposefully cultivated by people who call themselves feminists. Meaning we have "feminists" deliberately setting up a situation where women are socially shunned, shamed, and often lose opportunities for acting in a way they wish to act, which is the antithesis of feminism. Hence counterfeit feminist.

Basically, the problem isn't that people don't like the outfit. It is that many women feel they are being slut shamed for wanting to wear it (or similarly sexy outfits). And, really, that particular bit is hard to argue with. Slut shaming of women who dress sexy and of cosplayers in particular is well documented.

Not sure if I buy the entire line of thought myself, but the idea is something to consider.
 

TheMann

New member
Jul 13, 2010
324
0
0
You know, I'd would almost never post in a thread like this but, fuck it.

Here's a thought: If a woman wants to cosplay as Slave-Girl Leia, why should she have to justify herself to ANYONE?! All she has to say is "I like the Slave-Girl Leia costume, and want to dress up in it." She shouldn't have to make any explanation as to why she finds it appealing. To force her to do so it to take away her agency over her own actions. This is total bullshit. The slave-girl costume is an iconic image from Star Wars, pervy or not. I would just think that's what a person wearing it was going for. Now in the interest of honesty, I might still think "Huh, she's kind of hot.", but I do that anyway on a daily basis, and I keep it to myself. It's not like I'd bother her in any way. I also believe at least 90% of men would act similarly. Ladies, if you want to cosplay as this, don't feel like you must explain yourself. To think that you have to is to give these ding-dongs power over you that isn't their right to have.

Off topic:
Pyrian said:
Sure! We could totally be arguing about whether Starbucks using red cups constitutes part of a war on Christmas.
Ahhahahaha! SERIOUSLY? Man, that's hysterical. I go to Starbucks a bit because I have early courses (8am, ugh!). There's a Starbucks on campus and I don't think I'd survive without some caffeine. I noticed the red cups, but thought they'll probably follow it up with green cups to match, but I haven't seen this yet. Still, a "war on Christmas"?. That's just hilarious. Thanks, I needed that.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
1,925
0
0
ThatOtherGirl said:
Basically, the problem isn't that people don't like the outfit. It is that many women feel they are being slut shamed for wanting to wear it (or similarly sexy outfits). And, really, that particular bit is hard to argue with. Slut shaming of women who dress sexy and of cosplayers in particular is well documented.

Not sure if I buy the entire line of thought myself, but the idea is something to consider.
Yeah I kind of get where the thought is coming from but equating `you don't like this bikini` with `therefore you are a bad feminist` is very silly.
Feminism is good when its about choices.
She can choose to love and wear the bikini.
I can choose to think it's kind of lame.

By the way, anyone want to buy some counterfeit feminism? Looks just like the real stuff, I swear. But just don't come cryin' to me if you get busted by the Feminism Police.
 

ThatOtherGirl

New member
Jul 20, 2015
249
0
0
Phasmal said:
ThatOtherGirl said:
Basically, the problem isn't that people don't like the outfit. It is that many women feel they are being slut shamed for wanting to wear it (or similarly sexy outfits). And, really, that particular bit is hard to argue with. Slut shaming of women who dress sexy and of cosplayers in particular is well documented.

Not sure if I buy the entire line of thought myself, but the idea is something to consider.
Yeah I kind of get where the thought is coming from but equating `you don't like this bikini` with `therefore you are a bad feminist` is very silly.
Feminism is good when its about choices.
She can choose to love and wear the bikini.
I can choose to think it's kind of lame.

By the way, anyone want to buy some counterfeit feminism? Looks just like the real stuff, I swear. But just don't come cryin' to me if you get busted by the Feminism Police.
I don't really think she did equate `you don't like this bikini` with `therefore you are a bad feminist`. Not how I read it at all, and I am almost 100% sure she didn't mean it that way. She is saying that telling women "you are a bad women for wearing that and should be ashamed" is being a bad feminist.
 

Pyrian

Hat Man
Legacy
Apr 21, 2020
701
8
13
San Diego, CA
Country
US
Gender
Male
TheMann said:
Now in the interest of honesty, I might still think "Huh, she's kind of hot.", but I do that anyway on a daily basis, and I keep it to myself. It's not like I'd bother her in any way. I also believe at least 90% of men would act similarly.
Heh. 10% may be a small minority, but in absolute numbers it's an awful lot of people.
 

BlindTom

New member
Aug 8, 2008
847
0
0
Smart article, picked up mostly in the second half.

Hopefully one of these days the whole "Stop thinking about that" approach to "progressive" ideas will go out of fashion, at least in this subculture where it's seen some worrying flare ups of late.

Assuming the writer reads these, I'd be curious about opinions on Carrie Fisher's recent advice along the lines of "Don't be a slave like I was" when giving advice to new Star Wars' female lead.

I like to simply interpret it as "I hope you play your own character and not Leia 2.0." but it could be interpreted in some unfortunate sex negative ways. It could even be seen as a condemnation of the original scenes.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
Oh alright. I guess it's okay to say a person's opinion is wrong when it's the wrong people having the wrong opinions.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
Oh alright. I guess it's okay to say a person's opinion is wrong when it's the wrong people having the wrong opinions.
Well when that opinion becomes the basis for an article where they present it to the world as some reasoned take on the matter, yes, it's okay to tell people that their opinions might be wrong. After all, we wouldn't want to create some sort of safe space where people's views aren't challenged. Or maybe we do, so long as the opinions happen to be ones whinging about those censorious, counterfeit feminist, morality police
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Oh alright. I guess it's okay to say a person's opinion is wrong when it's the wrong people having the wrong opinions.
Well when that opinion becomes the basis for an article where they present it to the world as some reasoned take on the matter, yes, it's okay to tell people that their opinions might be wrong. After all, we wouldn't want to create some sort of safe space where people's views aren't challenged. Or maybe we do, so long as the opinions happen to be ones whinging about those censorious, counterfeit feminist, morality police
No, it's okay. I just got feminism wrong. I thought it was about equality and empowerment. I was further confused by other people in the thread disagreeing with her without having to say that she's only pandering and doesn't actually believe what she's saying.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
No, it's okay. I just got feminism wrong. I thought it was about equality and empowerment. I was further confused by other people in the thread disagreeing with her without having to say that she's only pandering and doesn't actually believe what she's saying.
Well considering you think feminism is bowing to the opinions of any woman who uses words as if she were an infallible prophet of truth, I'd say you definitely got feminism wrong. You also seem to be imagining people writing words they haven't actually written, so your confusion makes sense.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, it's okay. I just got feminism wrong. I thought it was about equality and empowerment. I was further confused by other people in the thread disagreeing with her without having to say that she's only pandering and doesn't actually believe what she's saying.
Well considering you think feminism is bowing to the opinions of any woman who uses words as if she were an infallible prophet of truth, I'd say you definitely got feminism wrong. You also seem to be imagining people writing words they haven't actually written, so your confusion makes sense.
No, I think I got another word wrong. I thought "disingenuous" meant "insincere".

LifeCharacter said:
Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!
But you definitely did say she was pandering.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
No, I think I got another word wrong. I thought "disingenuous" meant "insincere".
Oh, and who actually used that word before you came in?

But you definitely did say she was pandering.
Well, she just so happens to be expressing a number of views that all appeal to a certain group of people that she and the site she works for love appealing to, but you're right. It's wrong to make assumptions that people who are paid to write articles want their articles to attract attention from an intended audience.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
405
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, I think I got another word wrong. I thought "disingenuous" meant "insincere".
Oh, and who actually used that word before you came in?
You're right, I jumped to conclusions. I saw your statement that she was pandering with a cookie-cutter argument and took it to mean that you don't think she believes the views that she espouses.

Of course,

But you definitely did say she was pandering.
Well, she just so happens to be expressing a number of views that all appeal to a certain group of people that she and the site she works for love appealing to, but you're right. It's wrong to make assumptions that people who are paid to write articles want their articles to attract attention from an intended audience.
LifeCharacter said:
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
I feel that my assumption is well founded. But in any case, this has been a big misunderstanding. Since I have clearly misunderstood feminism, I suppose it's only right that we discount her opinion since we can operate on the assumption that she doesn't believe what she writes. We can do so because she disagrees with certain feminists apparently. My bad.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
Scow2 said:
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
Show me the sort of public pressure that could get a massive corporation to do something. Preferably something that is recent and can actually be linked to this. Where's the hashtagtwittertumblrmob that supposedly is responsible for this?

Also, did you expect asking me to prove something I never actually claimed nor could I realistically prove (especially to the standards of certain people who are more than likely to have standards of proof that are suddenly really high) to accomplish something?
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You're right, I jumped to conclusions. I saw your statement that she was pandering with a cookie-cutter argument and took it to mean that you don't think she believes the views that she espouses.
Don't worry about it, it's quite common amongst people desperate to take issue with something despite not having some tangible thing to actually take issue with.

But in any case, this has been a big misunderstanding. Since I have clearly misunderstood feminism, I suppose it's only right that we discount her opinion since we can operate on the assumption that she doesn't believe what she writes. We can do so because she disagrees with certain feminists apparently. My bad.
We could also discount her opinion because she supports it with your typical assortment of bad anti-feminist rhetoric that only really convinces people who were already thoroughly entrenched in the idea of some shadow group of morality enforcing counterfeit feminists (wearing police hats!). That's what I'd like to do. Though, I imagine that makes it harder for you to continue this disingenuous thing you're doing where you ignore what people actually say in favor of going on about nonsense. It must be horribly inconvenient for you and I feel just terrible about putting you through such a thing.
Well one thing I certainly feel horrible about is that, apparently in addition to not knowing the definitions of certain words, I was also incorrect about you even using those words in your posts that I quoted you using them in.

I suppose that means that I'm not actually reading you using "disingenuous" in this post that I'm quoting?

Does that also mean that I'm not seeing you saying (paraphrase) "we should discount the opinions of people who strenuously disagree with certain feminists"?
 

ThatOtherGirl

New member
Jul 20, 2015
249
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
Scow2 said:
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
Show me the sort of public pressure that could get a massive corporation to do something. Preferably something that is recent and can actually be linked to this. Where's the hashtagtwittertumblrmob that supposedly is responsible for this?
There has been a fairly significant wave of pressure coming from parents over the past year and a half on the slave Leia issue. It's been much talked about and very well covered, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, seeing how much you seem to care about feminism.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
Well one thing I certainly feel horrible about is that, apparently in addition to not knowing the definitions of certain words, I was also incorrect about you even using those words in your posts that I quoted you using them in.

I suppose that means that I'm not actually reading you using "disingenuous" in this post that I'm quoting?

Does that also mean that I'm not seeing you saying (paraphrase) "we should discount the opinions of people who strenuously disagree with certain feminists"?
Like I said, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes in our attempts at blindly charging forward at those evil people who think that a woman might be wrong and be using crappy arguments, especially when they're criticizing counterfeit feminists while said crappy arguments are little more than a copy of what anti-feminists would write.

...Well, not "all," really. More like some, with some grammatical workings to make it fit.

Though if you'd like, I could change the description of your recent posts from disingenuous to just blindly ignorant of what other people are actually writing. Those are really the only two options when I write "I think the author's wrong because her arguments are bad" and you come away with this whole thing of yours.

ThatOtherGirl said:
There has been a fairly significant wave of pressure coming from parents over the past year and a half on the slave Leia issue. It's been much talked about and very well covered, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, seeing how much you seem to care about feminism.
And I'm surprised that if it was such a fairly significant wave of pressure that has been much talked about and very well covered, you decided to commit the cardinal sin of telling rather than showing. Because it seems like the latter would be really easy to do.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
Alright, enough being cute.

LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
LifeCharacter said:
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You're right, I jumped to conclusions. I saw your statement that she was pandering with a cookie-cutter argument and took it to mean that you don't think she believes the views that she espouses.
Don't worry about it, it's quite common amongst people desperate to take issue with something despite not having some tangible thing to actually take issue with.

But in any case, this has been a big misunderstanding. Since I have clearly misunderstood feminism, I suppose it's only right that we discount her opinion since we can operate on the assumption that she doesn't believe what she writes. We can do so because she disagrees with certain feminists apparently. My bad.
We could also discount her opinion because she supports it with your typical assortment of bad anti-feminist rhetoric that only really convinces people who were already thoroughly entrenched in the idea of some shadow group of morality enforcing counterfeit feminists (wearing police hats!). That's what I'd like to do. Though, I imagine that makes it harder for you to continue this disingenuous thing you're doing where you ignore what people actually say in favor of going on about nonsense. It must be horribly inconvenient for you and I feel just terrible about putting you through such a thing.

You HAVE said that she's pandering. You HAVE said that she's disingenuous. You HAVE said that her opinion can be ignored. What we can INFER is that you do not believe that people can legitimately hold on to a view counter to yours. You do not believe a woman can hold on to this opinion unless it was for money. This is what counterfeit feminism is. Your argument is not a constructive one. It's not even an innocent disagreement. It's a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong. It is the argument that women should only hold certain opinions, or at least that they can't hold certain other opinions. It is not the argument that advances female empowerment or equality, it's the argument that stratifies women into "right" or "wrong".

If that's not what you meant to say, you should find a different way to say what you mean.

If you want to say you didn't say what I quoted, deal with your own conscience.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
405
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
Scow2 said:
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
Show me the sort of public pressure that could get a massive corporation to do something. Preferably something that is recent and can actually be linked to this.
... that's not the sort of pressure we're talking about. It's not some easily-dismissed Internet Outrage Phenomenon that can be linked to through easily-ignored twitter hashtags and similar tizzying stupidity. It's the overall 'background noise' on how women are supposed to be depicted in media, going on all over the place. It's social pressure - such as that of the atmosphere or white noise, not social force, like a hammer. Not that I disagree with Disney's decision to end an unhealthy obsession over the costume.

So... I guess we are showing by having this conversation in the first place.

Something I have a problem with in discussions of feminism (and this is an "External baggage" thing, not wholly related to this particular conversation) is when avoiding sexually-objectifying women moves from that to shaming and suppressing the female form. This came up in the Stormtrooper commander's armor. Stormtrooper men wear boobplate armor that reflects the underlying anatomy. Why don't stormtrooper women? This is a common thing in discussion of sci-fi/fantasy armors. (It doesn't help that some idiots think women have dicks over their ribcage instead of chests)
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
My take.

sexuality is part of life and being human.

Showing sexuality or a sexual aspect is showing an aspect of well humanity.

To try and deny that sexuality and sex is natural seems very odd to me and almost puritanical like some abstinence pushing religious group with the whole "Sex is bad, no sex before marriage"

If you're over sensitive or easily offended best skip this video illustrating the kind of people I mean.

I mean if people were going to try and take umbrage at something I'd have honestly thought it would have been the symbolism of her white outfit at the start due to it's common link to the idea of purity and virginity and how sacred such things are to some, which for the longest time such ideas actually restricted Women's sexual agency.

I mean if you want to talk about symbolism it's Leia in the slave outfit that kills planetary mob boss Jabba the Hutt in almost a symbolic act of proving she still had power and agency of her own meanwhile in the white outfit she's captured and Damseled.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
3,101
0
0
(Checks watch)...So, everybody convinced that their opposites are irredeemable in their ignorance, malicious in their intent, cemented in their closed-mindedness, and that they were fully justified in their preconceptions again?

I mean, if you really feel that a metal bikini is the fulcrum on which so much rides that it's necessary to become incandescently ballistic about it, being either the final straw before the world slides into either feminist tyranny or the universal acceptance of female slavery, far be it from me to stand in your way.

But if those ideas seem, perhaps, the tiniest bit hyperbolic, maybe you could grant those who disagree with you the slightest shred of humanity, perhaps even try to find some common ground? Make actual progress? Expand some horizons?

Look, I'm not claiming to be above this kind of thing, or that I've never gotten overly heated in an argument that wasn't worth the trouble. But to see this kind of spite and sneering, just outside the boundaries of the terms of use, over and over again, doesn't convince me of the peerless enlightenment and unassailable goodness of anyone participating. It just makes me tired.
 

ThatOtherGirl

New member
Jul 20, 2015
249
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well one thing I certainly feel horrible about is that, apparently in addition to not knowing the definitions of certain words, I was also incorrect about you even using those words in your posts that I quoted you using them in.

I suppose that means that I'm not actually reading you using "disingenuous" in this post that I'm quoting?

Does that also mean that I'm not seeing you saying (paraphrase) "we should discount the opinions of people who strenuously disagree with certain feminists"?
Like I said, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes in our attempts at blindly charging forward at those evil people who think that a woman might be wrong and be using crappy arguments, especially when they're criticizing counterfeit feminists while said crappy arguments are little more than a copy of what anti-feminists would write.

...Well, not "all," really. More like some, with some grammatical workings to make it fit.

Though if you'd like, I could change the description of your recent posts from disingenuous to just blindly ignorant of what other people are actually writing. Those are really the only two options when I write "I think the author's wrong because her arguments are bad" and you come away with this whole thing of yours.

ThatOtherGirl said:
There has been a fairly significant wave of pressure coming from parents over the past year and a half on the slave Leia issue. It's been much talked about and very well covered, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, seeing how much you seem to care about feminism.
And I'm surprised that if it was such a fairly significant wave of pressure that has been much talked about and very well covered, you decided to commit the cardinal sin of telling rather than showing. Because it seems like the latter would be really easy to do.
A cardinal sin? Wow, that's a bit over dramatic. I have no interest in forum sparing with you. Just thought you might want to know your ignorance of the issue was showing. You could just google it. I mean, if it was really something you were interested in beyond simply winning the argument at hand you would end up doing that anyway.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
405
0
0
I'm not sure how anything she said could be construed as Anti-feminist, aside from a snipe at people who seek to use "feminism' to deprive women of control over their own lives and bodies.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
You HAVE said that she's pandering. You HAVE said that she's disingenuous. You HAVE said that her opinion can be ignored.
I wasn't aware pandering and disengenuous were now horrible charges that one must never level at anyone ever lest they wish to insist that they don't hold any of the opinions they're actually stating. Though let's be clear, she is very much pandering to the crowd of people who cheer every time someone criticizes the "morality police" and "censorship" and let's just say that I hope that she was being disingenuous when she used those arguments, because being sincere in there use is much worse. And I guess I said her opinion can be discounted, though I'm not sure why discounting (or ignoring) someone's opinion when it's supported poorly is bad.

What we can INFER is that you do not believe that people can legitimately hold on to a view counter to yours.
Oh no, I very much believe people can legitimately hold a view counter to mine. I don't believe that all these people in the world who disagree with me are just being incredibly dishonest as part of a conspiracy to combat monotony. That said, some of their arguments are more than capable of being what could, I guess, be called illegitimate.

You do not believe a woman can hold on to this opinion unless it was for money.
And what do we infer this from, exactly? Because I accused a single woman of pandering to an audience through the use of particular words and rhetoric that do just that?

This is what counterfeit feminism is. Your argument is not a constructive one. It's not even an innocent disagreement. It's a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong.
I wasn't aware that pointing out that her arguments are poor is a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong. I'm not surprised at this point since I don't seem to be the only one ignoring things, though at least I'm not constantly misrepresenting people based upon that.

It is the argument that women should only hold certain opinions, or at least that they can't hold certain other opinions. It is not the argument that advances female empowerment or equality, it's the argument that stratifies women into "right" or "wrong".
That certainly is an argument about that. What wonderful, fanciful fantasies people have.

If that's not what you meant to say, you should find a different way to say what you mean.
Or maybe you could stop inferring wildly to the point where "I'll discount her opinion because it's poorly supported and filled with pandering rhetoric" is turned into "no woman is allowed to have an opinion contrary to mine!"

If you want to say you didn't say what I quoted, deal with your own conscience.
It's surprisingly easy to deal with a clean conscience.
Scow2 said:
... that's not the sort of pressure we're talking about. It's not some easily-dismissed Internet Outrage Phenomenon that can be linked to through easily-ignored twitter hashtags and similar tizzying stupidity. It's the overall 'background noise' on how women are supposed to be depicted in media, going on all over the place. It's social pressure - such as that of the atmosphere or white noise, not social force, like a hammer. Not that I disagree with Disney's decision to end an unhealthy obsession over the costume.
And, naturally, it can't possibly be that people at Disney happen to just want this on their own. They must have felt forced to by this pressure of background noise to do it. After all, it's going on all over the place and it'd be incredibly egotistical to assume that everyone in power agreed with your point of view that a 30 year old outfit needs to be constantly made and all female characters need to have big, noticeable boob-shaped armor bits on their chests.

Oh, and also prove it all, since you felt the need to ask me to prove that someone was being disingenuous.

Something I have a problem with in discussions of feminism (and this is an "External baggage" thing, not wholly related to this particular conversation) is when avoiding sexually-objectifying women moves from that to shaming and suppressing the female form. This came up in the Stormtrooper commander's armor. Stormtrooper men wear boobplate armor that reflects the underlying anatomy. Why don't stormtrooper women? This is a common thing in discussion of sci-fi/fantasy armors. (It doesn't help that some idiots think women have dicks over their ribcage instead of chests)
So because the Stormtrooper armor had slight bumps on their chest piece in the original, the female Stormtroopers should have boobs on it, for no other rhyme or reason than because that's the only way it can match the men's? Though, you'll note that the new movies (you know, where this commander you want to be walking around with stupid looking plastic boobs sticking out in front of her actually plays a role) have no bumps [http://www.moviesinfocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/daniel-craig-stormtrooper-star-wars-force-awakens.jpg].

ThatOtherGirl said:
A cardinal sin? Wow, that's a bit over dramatic. I have no interest in forum sparing with you. Just thought you might want to know your ignorance of the issue was showing. You could just google it. I mean, if it was really something you were interested in beyond simply winning the argument at hand you would end up doing that anyway.
Hey, if you don't feel like performing the seemingly easy task of linking something from this well-covered year and a half long bit of public pressuring, that's okay. Though I wouldn't consider asking for links to be forum sparring.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
405
0
0
I'm glad the new armor is consistent, but your dismissal of the female figure as 'stupid' is what I'm talking about.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
Scow2 said:
I'm glad the new armor is consistent, but your dismissal of the female figure as 'stupid' is what I'm talking about.
I'm dismissing poorly designed armor that happens to overwhelmingly find its way to female characters. That you want to conflate that with the female figure is your issue. My issue is that it makes no sense from a practical standpoint, seems to be born out of complete ignorance of female anatomy, and is just so completely uninspired and boring at this point.

And that latter bit is the most annoying, because the idiots in charge of designing female armor up to this point have been so obsessed with making sure we're always aware of boobs, and that the female character always has a sexy armor design that they've taken what could have been an interesting design for a unique, stylistic armor and made it more common than armor that actually looks like actual armor. I shouldn't be impressed when I see a female character in something resembling real armor, but I am, and it's the fault of all the people who think that boobs are a necessary component of a female character's appearance no matter what she's actually wearing at the time.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, it's okay. I just got feminism wrong. I thought it was about equality and empowerment. I was further confused by other people in the thread disagreeing with her without having to say that she's only pandering and doesn't actually believe what she's saying.
Well considering you think feminism is bowing to the opinions of any woman who uses words as if she were an infallible prophet of truth, I'd say you definitely got feminism wrong. You also seem to be imagining people writing words they haven't actually written, so your confusion makes sense.

LifeCharacter said:
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!

And do you not see the problem with just assuming somebody shouldn't be listened to because you disagree with them? Do you not see the problem with just assuming a woman doesn't believe their own opinion? Isn't that what modern feminists have been talking about?
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You HAVE said that she's pandering. You HAVE said that she's disingenuous. You HAVE said that her opinion can be ignored.
I wasn't aware pandering and disengenuous were now horrible charges that one must never level at anyone ever lest they wish to insist that they don't hold any of the opinions they're actually stating. Though let's be clear, she is very much pandering to the crowd of people who cheer every time someone criticizes the "morality police" and "censorship" and let's just say that I hope that she was being disingenuous when she used those arguments, because being sincere in there use is much worse. And I guess I said her opinion can be discounted, though I'm not sure why discounting (or ignoring) someone's opinion when it's supported poorly is bad.
So you're saying you know Liana K better than she herself does?

Or do you think it's insane that she doesn't sing in tune to what others have been saying?

Or is it just you're worried that people might start saying that Feminism can be self critical and isn't in fact a unified social class of people and that people might start to look and realise that in fact it never was the case as was seen with the two sides in the feminist porn wars?

Because it's just that, those attitudes being played out again. 2nd wave has somehow come back and now actual 3rd wave are arguing against it again.

Is it such a horrible situation for people not to have unified views to not "Listen and Believe" and take on blind faith to what some proclaimed leaders say just because it's for "The greater good"?

Is it really a terrible situation to believe some-one can both be pro sex and a feminist and maybe sex is a natural thing not some patriarchal monster that some of the more radical peoplep[footnote]https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/[/footnote] out there believe?


LifeCharacter said:
What we can INFER is that you do not believe that people can legitimately hold on to a view counter to yours.
Oh no, I very much believe people can legitimately hold a view counter to mine. I don't believe that all these people in the world who disagree with me are just being incredibly dishonest as part of a conspiracy to combat monotony. That said, some of their arguments are more than capable of being what could, I guess, be called illegitimate.
As are many of those pushing for it. It's funny people worry about the idea of sexualised figures. When I worked on a campsite we had some campers from Italy. Some of the stuff they said with their own kids about prompted some of the English campers to ask them to stop. The point they gave was that honestly it's an entirely different attitude they have to sex as do many other European countries. This was in the UK which is considered far less conservative than the US. In other words it's still a very conservative attitude being displayed by many in the US regarding sex. It's still got this stigma. It's still seen as to an extent Sinful in some areas of the US.

There's plenty of illegitimate arguments about. One of the most illegitimate it seems is that somehow kids are fine to be taught how sex is wrong, evil and sinful but not prepared for later in life and told about the idea of the age of consent and that when they're old enough (meeting the age of consent) they should feel free to make their choice about if they're ready and when they're ready and not feel ashamed of part of nature.


LifeCharacter said:
You do not believe a woman can hold on to this opinion unless it was for money.
And what do we infer this from, exactly? Because I accused a single woman of pandering to an audience through the use of particular words and rhetoric that do just that?

This is what counterfeit feminism is. Your argument is not a constructive one. It's not even an innocent disagreement. It's a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong.
I wasn't aware that pointing out that her arguments are poor is a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong.
It is if the idea she's wrong came first and not after you looked over the arguments.


LifeCharacter said:
Scow2 said:
... that's not the sort of pressure we're talking about. It's not some easily-dismissed Internet Outrage Phenomenon that can be linked to through easily-ignored twitter hashtags and similar tizzying stupidity. It's the overall 'background noise' on how women are supposed to be depicted in media, going on all over the place. It's social pressure - such as that of the atmosphere or white noise, not social force, like a hammer. Not that I disagree with Disney's decision to end an unhealthy obsession over the costume.
And, naturally, it can't possibly be that people at Disney happen to just want this on their own. They must have felt forced to by this pressure of background noise to do it. After all, it's going on all over the place and it'd be incredibly egotistical to assume that everyone in power agreed with your point of view that a 30 year old outfit needs to be constantly made and all female characters need to have big, noticeable boob-shaped armor bits on their chests.
So what other 30 year old figure designs are they cancelling?
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
If you didn't think those were horrible charges, why did you try saying that you didn't say them?
Why did I say that I didn't say she doesn't believe what she wrote? Mostly because I didn't. At least, from what I can tell, but you clearly see the truth of existence where I say the words that you ascribe to me.

If you think people can legitimately hold a counter position, why do you immediately assume she doesn't hold her opinion?
I immediately assumed she was pandering, which I guess in your mind that's intent on semantics despite not being very good at it means that I accused her of not really holding that opinion. It's a shame that you can easily pander while holding the opinion you're pandering too. I have no problem believing that Milo Yiannopoulas believes the vile bullshit that streams from his throat even if everything he says is pandering to the scum who read what he writes.

And do you not see the problem with just assuming somebody shouldn't be listened to because you disagree with them? Do you not see the problem with just assuming a woman doesn't believe their own opinion? Isn't that what modern feminists have been talking about?
Except she was listened to. That's the thing you constantly brush over in your attempts to act as though I've just dismissed her out of hand for disagreeing with me. I listened to her and found her arguments to be terrible and unconvincing. But then I don't actually expect much from you at this point since you've once again decided that not thinking that this one particular woman's argument was shit and that she's pandering (especially through her word choice) to a certain audience means that I think that every woman doesn't believe their own opinion.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
The_Kodu said:
So you're saying you know Liana K better than she herself does?
Not really, but just pretend I said yes. I expect people to do it now anyway, so might as well give my permission.

Or do you think it's insane that she doesn't sing in tune to what others have been saying?
I disagree with her position and find the arguments she uses to support her position to be poor, which is naturally read as exactly what you said.

I'm not really interested in your perspective on the workings of feminism and how the feminist wars are upon us because a woman called anyone who dares disagree with her about a fucking slave outfit a counterfeit feminist. But:

youdon'thavetobesexnegativetothinkthatslaveleiaisn'tthegreatestthingever,pullingsomerandombullshitblogandactingasthoughitsrepresentativeofsomethingmorethanthatonepersonispathetic,nooneeverclaimedfeminismwasunifiedandnotself-criticalbutkeeppretendingotherwiseitseemsfun,idon'tcareaboutwhatitalianssaidatyourcampsiteandwhatbeliefsyouwanttoascribetomeaboutsexed.

It is if the idea she's wrong came first and not after you looked over the arguments.
Well good thing I read her article first and then came to the idea that I disagreed with her and that her arguments didn't convince me otherwise. Though we should assume that I'm lying because you know me better than I do and you just know that I didn't actually bother to look over the actual arguments I've been talking about.

So what other 30 year old figure designs are they cancelling?
No idea, don't really care, but feel free to find out on your own.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
If you didn't think those were horrible charges, why did you try saying that you didn't say them?
Why did I say that I didn't say she doesn't believe what she wrote? Mostly because I didn't. At least, from what I can tell, but you clearly see the truth of existence where I say the words that you ascribe to me.

If you think people can legitimately hold a counter position, why do you immediately assume she doesn't hold her opinion?
I immediately assumed she was pandering, which I guess in your mind that's intent on semantics despite not being very good at it means that I accused her of not really holding that opinion. It's a shame that you can easily pander while holding the opinion you're pandering too. I have no problem believing that Milo Yiannopoulas believes the vile bullshit that streams from his throat even if everything he says is pandering to the scum who read what he writes.
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
Previous posts aside, I do actually know the meaning of disingenuous. I can read and comprehend your posts. Since you are denying up and down that you've said this, I suggested that you change the way you type.

And do you not see the problem with just assuming somebody shouldn't be listened to because you disagree with them? Do you not see the problem with just assuming a woman doesn't believe their own opinion? Isn't that what modern feminists have been talking about?
Except she was listened to. That's the thing you constantly brush over in your attempts to act as though I've just dismissed her out of hand for disagreeing with me. I listened to her and found her arguments to be terrible and unconvincing. But then I don't actually expect much from you at this point since you've once again decided that not thinking that this one particular woman's argument was shit and that she's pandering (especially through her word choice) to a certain audience means that I think that every woman doesn't believe their own opinion.
That doesn't change that your argument is poor and thinks less of women.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
That doesn't change that your argument is poor and thinks less of women.
Well, except you've said precisely nothing about my actual argument other than this weird thing where saying that the arguments of one woman aren't very good mean that I must think less of all women everywhere. And the thing is that I'm not even sure how that works outside of the mind of someone who thinks that every single woman is the same and has the same opinions and makes the same arguments, because, otherwise, criticizing the poor arguments and badly supported opinions of one woman wouldn't mean doing the same to every last woman in existence. Who knows, maybe you do think that.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
That doesn't change that your argument is poor and thinks less of women.
Well, except you've said precisely nothing about my actual argument other than this weird thing where saying that the arguments of one woman aren't very good mean that I must think less of all women everywhere. And the thing is that I'm not even sure how that works outside of the mind of someone who thinks that every single woman is the same and has the same opinions and makes the same arguments, because, otherwise, criticizing the poor arguments and badly supported opinions of one woman wouldn't mean doing the same to every last woman in existence. Who knows, maybe you do think that.
Defensiveness aside, you're the one saying that a woman's opinion doesn't matter.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
Defensiveness aside, you're the one saying that a woman's opinion doesn't matter.
Complete misrepresentations aside, I'm the one who says that this particular woman's opinion is founded on poor arguments and therefore can be disregarded. Which, to someone utterly incapable of honestly representing what another person has said, means that I've declared that we should all disregard the opinions of all women everywhere. I would say to have a good night, but I'm worried you'll twist that into me threatening to beat everyone who disagrees with me to death with the moon, so I'll just leave it. Also, I wouldn't really mean it so why bother?
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Defensiveness aside, you're the one saying that a woman's opinion doesn't matter.
Complete misrepresentations aside, I'm the one who says that this particular woman's opinion is founded on poor arguments and therefore can be disregarded. Which, to someone utterly incapable of honestly representing what another person has said, means that I've declared that we should all disregard the opinions of all women everywhere. I would say to have a good night, but I'm worried you'll twist that into me threatening to beat everyone who disagrees with me to death with the moon, so I'll just leave it. Also, I wouldn't really mean it so why bother?
You're the one telling people what to think. It's actually perfectly possible to disagree with someone without assuming they're just being paid, or that they're bad people or anything similar.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
You're the one telling people what to think. It's actually perfectly possible to disagree with someone without assuming they're just being paid, or that they're bad people or anything similar.
I'm aware. But then, that would be sort of clear if you bothered to actually respond to what I had actually written rather than whatever fantasy best suits your desire to complain about someone daring to criticize someone's opinion and the crappy arguments she based it on.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
33,944
1,209
118
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You're the one telling people what to think. It's actually perfectly possible to disagree with someone without assuming they're just being paid, or that they're bad people or anything similar.
I'm aware. But then, that would be sort of clear if you bothered to actually respond to what I had actually written rather than whatever fantasy best suits your desire to complain about someone daring to criticize someone's opinion and the crappy arguments she based it on.
Several people have disagreed with her in this thread. You're the one I'm talking to. The other people managed to make more reasonable arguments.
 

F-I-D-O

I miss my avatar
Feb 18, 2010
944
0
0
WinterWyvern said:
If she said:

"I like the bikini outfit because it's sexy and cool, and I think it's dumb to hide sexy costumes, so I'll wear it even more in protest for Disney's dumb sex-ophobic plan"

....I couldn't have agreed more.

But no, she said:

"I wear the bikini outfit because IT'S EMPOWERING!!!"

....and that's kinda ridiculous.
So...if the crux of her argument was how you feel and now how she feels about said metallic clothing you'd have been fine with it?

I see Disney's marketing not as sexphobic, but as number crunching. They probably aren't selling too many RotJ figures anymore. It also lets them stop any argument of "why are you still sexing up Leia" if they sell those figures alongside the new episode VII lead. I'd be surprised if they try and crack down on Halloween costumes and the like (sales are sales), but it really just seems like a company phasing out an old visual for a new one - not too much different from moving between Optimus Prime toys.

And while you might not see the outfit as empowering, its a repeat of the visual trend set in the first movie. There, you have Leia in a white dress, as the personification of princess in distress, take control of her own rescue (despite not wearing armor) and get everyone out. With RotJ, you have Leia again doing more than her clothing (a core component of characterization in films) would imply she can do - the similarly dressed Twi'lek can do nothing as she dies. Leia takes control when opportunity arises, using the only tool available to her - the chain attached to the bikini. Whether or not you see it as a symbol of feminism is irrelevant - it's a core scene of a beloved character rising above her current station to handle a problem, gaining power from a disadvantage.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
LifeCharacter said:
I disagree with her position and find the arguments she uses to support her position to be poor, which is naturally read as exactly what you said.
Ok then why do you disagree?

e.g.
Do you disagree because you think it's better for kids to not have a "sexualised" Leia doll?
Does the outfit offend or upset you personally?
Do you believe the outfit itself is a regressive thing?


LifeCharacter said:
I'm not really interested in your perspective on the workings of feminism and how the feminist wars are upon us because a woman called anyone who dares disagree with her about a fucking slave outfit a counterfeit feminist. But:

you don't have to be sex negative to think that slave leia isn't the greatest thing ever,pulling some random bullshit blog and acting as though its representative of something more than that one person is pathetic,no one ever claimed feminism was unified and not self critical but keeppretending otherwise it seems fun ,i don't care about what italians said at your campsite and what beliefs you want to ascribe to me about sexed.
You might not have tried to say Feminsim should be unified by I do know someone who has said just that.


Watch from about the 2 minute on wards. You'll see the face of one of the "modern" branches of feminism talk about how she's concerned with the direction of internet feminism and it's tendency towards a form of hyper individualism. She then goes on to talk about how choice feminism is harmful because of the potential impact on other womens' lives of those choices. The claim is by doing so you're supporting a system of oppression. She then talks about how patriarchy limits womens choices somehow.

I know you hate me saying about what I see but I know female scientists. I know a female professional BMX rider. I know female computer programmer. 2 Doctors. 2 in the army. A psychiatrist. A lab Manager. A legal adviser.A dentist. A bio-medical scientist. and many more.

Seems like the only choices that aren't paying is activist and you know what's funny? it's the same people who complain about the lack of women in STEM while happy to have 80-90% of Gender studies courses being female and never wonder if that might be part of the reason.

That's what it seemingly boils down to. All those women I know in other fields that are normally male dominated it's lessening their work. It's suggesting they made a bad choice. It's suggesting that them making a choice and letting nothing stop them was wrong. It's saying the "right" choice should have been to protest, go do gender studies and then wonder why nothing is changing.

You can't give course places to people who don't apply.

You can't give course places to people who don't have the skills and will likely fail.

So this is where I'm coming from.

This is why it might be worth looking into the feminist wars again and seeing how this all went down before.

One of the best known female leaders of the past decade wasn't a product of some affirmative action who celebrated being the countries first female leader. She was a female scientist who helped develop Mr Whippy Ice cream who was more proud she was the first scientist and at Prime Minister. To her it didn't matter she'd been born female, that wasn't what she saw as an achievement.

If people don't have a choice, people don't have the choice to help change things.

LifeCharacter said:
It is if the idea she's wrong came first and not after you looked over the arguments.
Well good thing I read her article first and then came to the idea that I disagreed with her and that her arguments didn't convince me otherwise. Though we should assume that I'm lying because you know me better than I do and you just know that I didn't actually bother to look over the actual arguments I've been talking about.
I never said I did know you better. I put forward a simple statement about the problem of inherent bias in observation of arguments.

LifeCharacter said:
So what other 30 year old figure designs are they cancelling?
No idea, don't really care, but feel free to find out on your own.
Well my counter argument was if the reason is the figure is old and that's the reason it's being retired surely to support your own argument you'd be able to show it's not the only figure being stopped.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
5,316
1
3
Country
United States
How about we all take a step back and then have this discussion when we can talk without out making it personal?
 

Tsun Tzu

Feuer! Sperrfeuer! Los!
Legacy
May 3, 2020
904
80
33
Country
Free-Dom
Unsurprisingly, I agree with ya Liana.

Not much more to say there, but the whole thing is just sad, all the way around.

Callate said:
(Checks watch)...So, everybody convinced that their opposites are irredeemable in their ignorance, malicious in their intent, cemented in their closed-mindedness, and that they were fully justified in their preconceptions again?

I mean, if you really feel that a metal bikini is the fulcrum on which so much rides that it's necessary to become incandescently ballistic about it, being either the final straw before the world slides either into either feminist tyranny or the universal acceptance of female slavery, far be it from me to stand in your way.

But if those ideas seem, perhaps, the tiniest bit hyperbolic, maybe you could grant those who disagree with you the slightest shred of humanity, perhaps even try to find some common ground? Make actual progress? Expand some horizons?

Look, I'm not claiming to be above this kind of thing, or that I've never gotten overly heated in an argument that wasn't worth the trouble. But to see this kind of spite and sneering, just outside the boundaries of the terms of use, over and over again, doesn't convince me of the peerless enlightenment and unassailable goodness of anyone participating. It just makes me tired.
Wrong tree. Wrong tree!

Really though, just quoting you because it bears repeating.

Unfortunately, it will likely be ignored because we're all apparently bitter kidults with axes the size of Texas and a grinding wheel to match.

erttheking said:
How about we all take a step back and then have this discussion when we can talk without out making it personal?
Yeah!

Nobody around here does that...that kinda thing!



You...you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
 

runic knight

New member
Mar 26, 2011
724
0
0
So, Leia's outfit represents a sexual and empowered woman taking vengeance on her captor? I guess I can see where they'd pick that up from, the jabba murder scene was pretty brutal and the whole thing seemed like an outright planned assassination in the end. Seriously, that many people in place seemed far more than impromptu. Hell, freeing Han, putting chewie into the prison, Luke letting himself get captured after the Rankor pit, the lightsaber clearly waiting on signal, and Lando in waiting all were far more than needed if they were just trying things peaceful like. That was an Ocean's Eleven assassination, with Leia taking the lead, accepting the humiliation in order to do her duty and kill the slug boss. That is some pretty empowering ideas there.

So yeah, definitely a valid reason to like the costume, it can certainly represent women empowerment through an ironic twist in a "slave" outfit. Imagine sort of the same reason as a collar with a broken chain might represent wildness and freedom despite it being, you know, a collar that restricts and all that.

LifeCharacter said:
in general
You do know that she explained why she called them "counterfeit feminists" and that in doing so, your attempt to dismiss it all without going after the arguments used to back it really comes off as disingenuous dismissal. So I have to ask for a little clarity here. Are you calling her wrong and claiming she is pandering to a group you dislike, with the heavily implied notion that she is fake in what she says (as pandering generally is an over the top appeal to an audience) because she is using her reasoning to point to discrepancies in her view of feminism compared to what you think feminism is, or are you declaring her wrong because you disagree with her support of the costume on the basis of a feminist argument that you dislike? Is it the conclusion you find fault with because it runs counter your view of feminism, or is it the use of feminism to support her argument that you find flaw with here?
 

stormtrooper9091

New member
Jun 2, 2010
377
0
0
bwahahaha this topic devolved into a shitstorm as expected, first world problems are the most serious thing ever :D
 

TheSlothOverlord

New member
Mar 20, 2013
24
0
0
chocolate pickles said:
Better hope the SJW's and morality police don't get wind of this. They'll have a field day.
It is too late now. They have already come and are (gasp!) politely disagreeing with the author! THE HORROR.

Considering how often the dreaded "SJWs" are talked about and how often they're actually seen, I'm surprised we don't have cryptozoologists trying to find them yet.

LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
The passive aggressiveness is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

LifeCharacter said:
I wasn't aware pandering and disengenuous were now horrible charges that one must never level at anyone ever lest they wish to insist that they don't hold any of the opinions they're actually stating.
Except that is the very definition of being disingenuous and pandering. And I'd say those are pretty serious charges when leveled against a journalist. Sure, you can disagree with the argument itself, but unless you have some magical insight into the inner workings of her mind (and I consider that unlikely), then I don't really see how you can claim she is being insincere.
Phasmal said:
By the way, anyone want to buy some counterfeit feminism? Looks just like the real stuff, I swear. But just don't come cryin' to me if you get busted by the Feminism Police.
Oh yeah, and how do I know you're not actually an undercover Feminism Officer looking to lock me in Feminist Jail hmmm?! And don't give me the whole "a Feminist Officer has to tell you the truth when you ask them", that's an urban myth!
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
TheSlothOverlord said:
chocolate pickles said:
Better hope the SJW's and morality police don't get wind of this. They'll have a field day.
It is too late now. They have already come and are (gasp!) politely disagreeing with the author! THE HORROR.
Was this before or after they accused the Author of being in short a liar doing to to pander to an audience and called her arguments poor and likened them to an "Anti-feminist checklist". All the time failing to actually present evidence for any of these or argue why the arguments were poor?

I don't consider it particularly polite to level claims like that against people without at least some reasoning or evidence backing them up.
 

TheSlothOverlord

New member
Mar 20, 2013
24
0
0
The_Kodu said:
TheSlothOverlord said:
chocolate pickles said:
Better hope the SJW's and morality police don't get wind of this. They'll have a field day.
It is too late now. They have already come and are (gasp!) politely disagreeing with the author! THE HORROR.
Was this before or after they accused the Author of being in short a liar doing to to pander to an audience and called her arguments poor and likened them to an "Anti-feminist checklist". All the time failing to actually present evidence for any of these or argue why the arguments were poor?

I don't consider it particularly polite to level claims like that against people without at least some reasoning or evidence backing them up.
It was before, my dear friend. I am somewhat confused why you would use a plural pronoun to refer to a single person who started a prolonged fight and did accuse the author of being a liar (and the other stuff). Which I have mentioned in my last comment. Otherwise though I didn't see anyone else throwing accusations at the author, even though a lot of them disagreed. Unless I missed something on the first page of the comments of course.
 

BytByte

New member
Nov 26, 2009
260
0
0
Here's a thought. There are probably people out there who think that fat stinky Jabba was the hot one in that scene. Ewwwwww. But hey, it was harder to get your rocks off in the 80s, so I think we can make an exception
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
TheSlothOverlord said:
It was before, my dear friend. I am somewhat confused why you would use a plural pronoun to refer to a single person who started a prolonged fight and did accuse the author of being a liar (and the other stuff). Which I have mentioned in my last comment. Otherwise though I didn't see anyone else throwing accusations at the author, even though a lot of them disagreed. Unless I missed something on the first page of the comments of course.
Sorry I've been spending too much time near social justice I was using the singular they ( the Social justice version of the royal WE). You didn't miss anything it was the one you responded to. Then again the idea of reducing the argument to absurdity. Well it's already got there when the main argument for stopping making the toys seems to be "Won't someone please think of the children who I don't actually have to buy this figure for at all and can buy an entirely different Leia figure instead"
 

TheSlothOverlord

New member
Mar 20, 2013
24
0
0
The_Kodu said:
Sorry I've been spending too much time near social justice I was using the singular they ( the Social justice version of the royal WE). You didn't miss anything it was the one you responded to.
Oh, I'm actually a fan of the singular they, if only because it's a more graceful option than "he or she". I was just confused because in your original post you referred to multiple people :p.
The_Kodu said:
Then again the idea of reducing the argument to absurdity. Well it's already got there when the main argument for stopping making the toys seems to be "Won't someone please think of the children who I don't actually have to buy this figure for at all and can buy an entirely different Leia figure instead"
I never really got the idea of protecting children from all mentions of the birds and the bees. Sure you probably don't want to expose them to the rich fetish world, which could be somewhat traumatizing to an unprepared mind; but is it really necessary to hide the mere biological fact of sex or is it just because we've come to see it as something inherently dirty and the mere knowledge of it will irreversibly taint your mind?
 

LetalisK

New member
May 5, 2010
1,572
0
0
I more or less agree with Liana. Particularly this line: "So Disney can do what it wants, and counterfeit feminists can cheer the decision after it's been made for them, obeying their own slave masters without the fabulous outfit."

I know there is no unifying theory of feminism, but someone celebrating the slave outfit being gone as progressive for women actually feels a little slut shamey to me. Much like free speech, it's not about liking what women choose, but acknowledging that they should have the choice, ideologically speaking. At least that's how I view it.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
2,918
0
0
First thing I said when I heard about this thing was that I see a lot of women willingly cosplaying it so whoever is decrying it clearly doesn't have consultation with any of them. I find this article highly amusing, since it's as though someone saw my message and responded in order to show how I was right.


All you have to do is go to a con and you'll see this outfit everywhere. To claim it is "bad for women" makes all these girls at the cons "sluts looking to get male attention", and that just isn't true.
 

Liana Kerzner

New member
May 6, 2015
77
0
0
stormtrooper9091 said:
Things like this keep SJWs alive. Please let them disappear. Nobody gives two shits about the god damn metal bikini, is this really the biggest problem on the internet right now? Is there really nothing better and more important to write about?
*looks at Dartmouth, Yale, and Mizzou* Ain't the Slave Leia bikinis of the world keeping SJWs alive. It's the hugbox culture propagated by US leftism(while I may still despise Euro leftism, at least they don't put up with hugbox bullshite)