Why is a Bare Breast More Offensive Than a Severed Arm?

[zinho73]

I find it interesting that you mention how being aroused among others is more taboo than being grossed out among others.

That's exactly what I was thinking. This article is probably giving more information on the author's psyche than intended.

Then main point of the article is that on AVERAGE, for MOST people in MOST cultures the world over, people are less comfortable about sex in group environments than they are violence.

But that's not true at all.

It all depends on context, this is not a rule. Millions of people watched Oh, Calcuta together (a play in which every actor is naked). Yes, been aroused in front of your mom is weird but if you are comfortable with sex scenes you won't be aroused while watching it with your mom. You will be if watching with your loved one, sipping a wine. With my mom on my side I would just remember the name of the film for future reference.

Context is everything.

With a quick pool around my office (50 people or so) I asked what they would prefer to watch: a very good fight scene or a very good sex scene?
Most would prefer a sex scene because they are more rare.

In Asia they talk a lot about it and really go into the realm of fetishes, perversions and fixations, but it is prohibited to show genitalia.
In Africa there are numerous cultures that see sex in a very different, crude way, (including collective rape as a girl initiation).
IN Brasil, nudity and seduction are quite common in TV shows.
In Europe, the erotic is much more prevalent in art than violence.
Even in US, the exploration of the female body is as common as violence. Americans just don't like to see people doing it, but they are quite comfortable with sexist innuendo (very present in Brasil, too).

The only true generalism here is that the issue is very problematic for american audiences. More so than in other countries.

BUT IT IS OK! THIS IS A CULTURAL THING AND NOT A FLAW OF CHARACTER.

With globalization, those kind of biases are more explicit, and it will generate some conflict and naturally change with time. Because all cultures like sex equally, they only deal with it in different ways.

 

[zinho73]

I mean not everybody reacts to humor in the same way either, but watching a comedy with my mom or sister won't cause me any discomfort. Watching a porno will.

The problem is right there on this thought: immediately equating sex with pornography. There are several comedies with sex scenes and naked people on them. You would not watch any of them with your mother?

Explicit sex movies are not meant to be watched with moms.

 

[mtarzaim02]

Uh.. we do know why.. and the answer is religion.

Indeed. I too think the OP completly missed the point of all violence vs sex debate.
Sex is repulsive because we have been brainwashed since 2000 years (more for jew people) about sex being bad. Romans had no qualm about sexuality. same for Greeks, Egyptians, and so on. They had taboo, but still a lot less "focused" than we are.
In the same time, we got the bible, filled with depiction of gross violence, often more against the innocent than the guilty. Because when you frustrate people sexually, it has to come out anyway, ie the porn violence eructing not only in writing, but in action too.

All that for what? For control.
Telling to people they will f*ck when you say they can, is litteraly grabing them by the balls, forcing them to do whatever nonsense you order them to. Remember the reptilian brain we all have, and how the "upper" brain is only an extension of it. Since you cannot force people not to feed or protect themselves, only the sexual activities remained as a potential tool for power-hungry freaks.

Judeo-christian values are incredibly rooted in all western minds. For all the good (and mainly the bad) it does.

Never noticed how the Pope is considered as "great" while doing less than any responsible shmuck?
And how much backslash you receive when stating it loud?

(Hey that tentacle looks like a penis... shouldnt that be censored? Naaaah.... its a tentacle.. its not a penis.. it looks and functions like one but something like this clearly doesnt exist in real life so its totaly okay not to censor it)

Remind me of some Londo [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e--3WZYEEhk]...

 

[Casual Shinji]

I mean not everybody reacts to humor in the same way either, but watching a comedy with my mom or sister won't cause me any discomfort. Watching a porno will.

The problem is right there on this thought: immediately equating sex with pornography. There are several comedies with sex scenes and naked people on them. You would not watch any of them with your mother?

Explicit sex movies are not meant to be watched with moms.

If it's played for laughs, the comedy usually takes the forefront.

 

[JarinArenos]

More importantly, arousal is a very personal thing and we're more particular about when and where we want to feel it. I don't mind being grossed out in front of my mom, but I definitely don't want to be aroused in front of my mom. Making something sexually titillating immediately makes it something that you don't want to see in certain situations. People aren't so much upset by what they're seeing as what they're feeling. While you can ease the impact of violent imagery by reminding yourself it's "just a movie", that's not so easy to do with sexual content. That really is a naked person and they really are affecting you on a physiological level. You can stop believing in a movie, but you can't control what sorts of things arouse or embarrass you.

This is actually an odd thing to just cruise past as an explanation instead of investigating it directly. I'd think this would be the most important part of your article to ask "why?" This embarrassment about arousal, or really, anything involved in sex, is causing our society all sorts of trouble. Look at the state of sex education in the US (possibly elsewhere as well). It's horrendous, and even with how embarrassingly little they teach, you still see parents getting exceptions for their children to sit out those days (usually "that day" singular) in health class.

How many health problems, emotional trauma, STIs, or accidental pregnancies could be avoided if we had better education on the topic? I don't know about the rest of you, but for me "the talk" never actually happened, my parents were so embarrassed by the topic, leaving me to learn from bathroom walls and eventually really bad porn that I could get over a 14,400 modem. This is not healthy. So no, these attitudes don't get a pass, they deserve to be questioned, wherever they're found.

Edit: hit post too soon

 

[CaitSeith]

]Yeah, that makes this discussion a bit muddy, doesn't it? But, as a baseline, if you were playing mass effect 1 and just went into the sex scene with liara, and your mom walked in and wanted to see you play this game(maybe she bought it for you or whatever), how quickly and frantically would you hit the pause/power button? Or would you be all like "Hey mom! Check this out!"?

Neither. If she asks, I say: "It's just a scene like in an adult movie. When it's done, it goes back to the main part of the game".

 

[Jacco]

As an addendum for why nudity is rather uncommon in television and movies, compared to violence: It is far more comfortable for an actor or actress to have someone apply make-up and some silicone prosthetics to make it look like you've been impaled, beaten or decapitated than it is to have to undress in front of 40 of your co-workers with the knowledge that potentially millions of people will be watching you undress. It is also far easier for a director or casting supervisor to pitch "you will get a really cool death scene and make-up" than it is to pitch "you will be nude at multiple times during this shoot, including a sex scene". This is especially true with big name actresses or actors who can demand literally millions of dollars for the movie or show to include a few seconds of them naked.

This is actually one of the more interesting and level headed takes on this topic that i've seen. Well done.

 

[themilo504]

If you want characters to have sex just cut to black, and then show them both lying in bed naked, anything more is pointless unless you?re trying to turn on the audience.

Not quite true actually, while it is in any game at the moment especially with the quality of our models and animations. You can actually describe a lot about a character or their relationship or mood by how they are having sex, its a complex interaction. Though you probably could convey this just by how they stated and looked afterwards true. though overall I agree as I have not interest in learning about characters though watching them have sex even if it could be an effective character building seance.

I still don?t see how it can add anything that can?t be shown some other way, then again I?m anti sex so that?s hardly surprising.

 

[RyuujinZERO]

I have to disagree with the writer on one aspect. He's quite right that it forms a divergent experience - people's upbringings and history with sex tends to be more widely varied than in the example of violence. BUT, that is not universal nor undivergent either.

People who have survived disasters, or experienced warfare and seen first hand death and dismemberment have very different feelings and reactions to visceral on screen violence for the same reasons - they divergeing experiences for them. In our old MMO guild a couple of them were soldiers (One was a combat medic!), and he particulary was quite unkeen to see graphic violence in his games and movies, or even talk about the depiction of it.

We're not talking about Mr Squeamish here, in fact he was quite a hard guy with a cruel tongue. But for him, graphic violence and injury (understandably) was not an experience he could relate to with other people.

 

[zinho73]

I mean not everybody reacts to humor in the same way either, but watching a comedy with my mom or sister won't cause me any discomfort. Watching a porno will.

The problem is right there on this thought: immediately equating sex with pornography. There are several comedies with sex scenes and naked people on them. You would not watch any of them with your mother?

Explicit sex movies are not meant to be watched with moms.

If it's played for laughs, the comedy usually takes the forefront.

Yes, but not always. Sex can be awkward, funny, sexy and even violent. Just like violence can be presented in a myriad of ways (even in cartoons). Sex is not a genre. It is a narrative tool. Sometimes it is well used and sometimes it is not, but the reaction to it is contextual and it can be as Shamus presented but can also be in another myriad of ways.

The "not get aroused in front of mom" argument is clever but false. Yes, almost everyone do not want to get aroused in front of mom, but to actually get aroused while your mom is in the room is not easy, regardless of what is happening on the screen.

First, because sex can be depicted, as I said above, in plenty of ways that are not necessarily exciting (funny, gross, etc).
And second, because your mind would not probably be into it. As I said in another post; you will probably remember the name of the movie for future reference, to watch it again in another context.

The gist is that it is a cultural difference. Beyond that, the discussion is not simple at all.
Actually Americans do not have a problem with sex per se. Hollywood created the "one night stand" meme, in which the hero always have sex with girls after the first date. Also, western TV have no problem with innuendo or the objectification of women - there are plenty of examples of that in movies and TV. The naked body and the actual sex scene are more problematic, though.

But it is changing. Globalization, man, globalization.

 

[maninahat]

Why is a Bare Breast More Offensive Than a Severed Arm?

This question gets asked a lot. "Why is a bare breast more offensive than a severed arm?" This question has been around in one form or another for decades and is usually presented as a challenge or a demand for explanation regarding the way movies are rated, marketed, and edited.

Read Full Article

Excelelnt artilce but I have one question after it.

You had stated that games are bad as systematizing relationships and conversations. So where does that put Visual Novels like Little Busters, Clannad and other such digital media that revolves around conversations and developing relationships between characters in game? Does this mean that the current model of Visual Novel is the best we have limited by a very poor system?

I'd say visual novels have a very poor system for exploring sexuality. In terms of a game exploring sexuality, visual novels often deprive the gamer outright in terms of interactivity, reducing their input to just an occasional, arbitrary choice as to which room in the school to go to, or what time to get up. It's there so we can't deviate from the pre-arranged love story. If this were an actual book with no interactivity, I wouldn't mind; with that, one can still read a meaningful and interesting story that explores sexuality. But in VNs, there is this awkward format in which I can only read one sentence at a time and have to click to move onto the next (or wait for the next sentence to appear), because 90% of the screen is wasted, taken up by a static picture of a girl who is often not doing anything but standing still and pulling a face.

As a book for exploring sexuality, outside of the formatting issues, VNs are often written from the perspective that sex is a reward for the player. The games are often are marketed on the idea that you pick a girl you like the look of and by picking through the scant in-game choices, you eventually get to see nudie pictures of her. People might argue that there is an emotional, deep or interesting relationship being explored within the game, and that's what VN fans are really playing it to see, but even then these relationships are often following a standardised format in which the sex comes eventually (and inevitably). These stories are often corny, with lots of purple prose and boring content. The slice of life nature of most VNs encourage you to look at these from a character driven perspective, but that often results in a lot of tedious drivel and little to drive the plot beyond "let's see if they will get around to having sex". Even in most sliciest of life stories, like Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou), there is usually a driving intrigue, or mystery, or some form of device that keeps the reader wanting to see a resolution (in the case of YKK, you have plant babies, mysterious planes, a fish woman, the bizarre circumstances surrounding the gynoids and their "owners", the reason for Earth's death; all kinds of crap that is going on whilst the protagonists talk about roasting coffee beans.)

Of course, there are exceptions to these. Christina Love games have more than one sentence on screen, tend to involve lots of ways in which the player can direct the conversation/action, the thing driving the plot is usually not just an ambition to have sex, and romance is explored in ways beyond "fucking 15 year olds". I'd love to see more VNs that deviate from the standard, shitty format. Because right now, I can't understand why people would shill out for what I see as awkwardly presented, lazily designed, badly written, immaturely conceived and dubiously tasted Franken-game/books.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Why is a Bare Breast More Offensive Than a Severed Arm?

This question gets asked a lot. "Why is a bare breast more offensive than a severed arm?" This question has been around in one form or another for decades and is usually presented as a challenge or a demand for explanation regarding the way movies are rated, marketed, and edited.

Read Full Article

Excelelnt artilce but I have one question after it.

You had stated that games are bad as systematizing relationships and conversations. So where does that put Visual Novels like Little Busters, Clannad and other such digital media that revolves around conversations and developing relationships between characters in game? Does this mean that the current model of Visual Novel is the best we have limited by a very poor system?

I'd say visual novels have a very poor system for exploring sexuality. In terms of a game exploring sexuality, visual novels often deprive the gamer outright in terms of interactivity, reducing their input to just an occasional, arbitrary choice as to which room in the school to go to, or what time to get up. It's there so we can't deviate from the pre-arranged love story. If this were an actual book with no interactivity, I wouldn't mind; with that, one can still read a meaningful and interesting story that explores sexuality. But in VNs, there is this awkward format in which I can only read one sentence at a time and have to click to move onto the next (or wait for the next sentence to appear), because 90% of the screen is wasted, taken up by a static picture of a girl who is often not doing anything but standing still and pulling a face.

As a book for exploring sexuality, outside of the formatting issues, VNs are often written from the perspective that sex is a reward for the player. The games are often are marketed on the idea that you pick a girl you like the look of and by picking through the scant in-game choices, you eventually get to see nudie pictures of her. People might argue that there is an emotional, deep or interesting relationship being explored within the game, and that's what VN fans are really playing it to see, but even then these relationships are often following a standardised format in which the sex comes eventually (and inevitably). These stories are often corny, with lots of purple prose and boring content. The slice of life nature of most VNs encourage you to look at these from a character driven perspective, but that often results in a lot of tedious drivel and little to drive the plot beyond "let's see if they will get around to having sex". Even in most sliciest of life stories, like Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou), there is usually a driving intrigue, or mystery, or some form of device that keeps the reader wanting to see a resolution (in the case of YKK, you have plant babies, mysterious planes, a fish woman, the bizarre circumstances surrounding the gynoids and their "owners", the reason for Earth's death; all kinds of crap that is going on whilst the protagonists talk about roasting coffee beans.)

Of course, there are exceptions to these. Christina Love games have more than one sentence on screen, tend to involve lots of ways in which the player can direct the conversation/action, the thing driving the plot is usually not just an ambition to have sex, and romance is explored in ways beyond "fucking 15 year olds". I'd love to see more VNs that deviate from the standard, shitty format. Because right now, I can't understand why people would shill out for what I see as awkwardly presented, lazily designed, badly written, immaturely conceived and dubiously tasted Franken-game/books.

I will admit that most visual novels are basically self-insert fantasies designed around high school drama, tension and problems designed only to appeal to Otaku and NEET but at the same time, there are companies like Key that make works that people seem to really like: Little Busters, Kanon, Clannad. In addition, It is still possible for people to feel something from a standardized format: after all, many stories are simply those retold over and over again.

on that note, what are your opinion on either of the Key visual novels I named above, Katawa Shoujo, Grisaia No Kaijutsu, and School Days (School Days is the odd man out since it's a deconstruction of harem VNs)

 

[maninahat]

Why is a Bare Breast More Offensive Than a Severed Arm?

This question gets asked a lot. "Why is a bare breast more offensive than a severed arm?" This question has been around in one form or another for decades and is usually presented as a challenge or a demand for explanation regarding the way movies are rated, marketed, and edited.

Read Full Article

Excelelnt artilce but I have one question after it.

You had stated that games are bad as systematizing relationships and conversations. So where does that put Visual Novels like Little Busters, Clannad and other such digital media that revolves around conversations and developing relationships between characters in game? Does this mean that the current model of Visual Novel is the best we have limited by a very poor system?

I'd say visual novels have a very poor system for exploring sexuality. In terms of a game exploring sexuality, visual novels often deprive the gamer outright in terms of interactivity, reducing their input to just an occasional, arbitrary choice as to which room in the school to go to, or what time to get up. It's there so we can't deviate from the pre-arranged love story. If this were an actual book with no interactivity, I wouldn't mind; with that, one can still read a meaningful and interesting story that explores sexuality. But in VNs, there is this awkward format in which I can only read one sentence at a time and have to click to move onto the next (or wait for the next sentence to appear), because 90% of the screen is wasted, taken up by a static picture of a girl who is often not doing anything but standing still and pulling a face.

As a book for exploring sexuality, outside of the formatting issues, VNs are often written from the perspective that sex is a reward for the player. The games are often are marketed on the idea that you pick a girl you like the look of and by picking through the scant in-game choices, you eventually get to see nudie pictures of her. People might argue that there is an emotional, deep or interesting relationship being explored within the game, and that's what VN fans are really playing it to see, but even then these relationships are often following a standardised format in which the sex comes eventually (and inevitably). These stories are often corny, with lots of purple prose and boring content. The slice of life nature of most VNs encourage you to look at these from a character driven perspective, but that often results in a lot of tedious drivel and little to drive the plot beyond "let's see if they will get around to having sex". Even in most sliciest of life stories, like Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou), there is usually a driving intrigue, or mystery, or some form of device that keeps the reader wanting to see a resolution (in the case of YKK, you have plant babies, mysterious planes, a fish woman, the bizarre circumstances surrounding the gynoids and their "owners", the reason for Earth's death; all kinds of crap that is going on whilst the protagonists talk about roasting coffee beans.)

Of course, there are exceptions to these. Christina Love games have more than one sentence on screen, tend to involve lots of ways in which the player can direct the conversation/action, the thing driving the plot is usually not just an ambition to have sex, and romance is explored in ways beyond "fucking 15 year olds". I'd love to see more VNs that deviate from the standard, shitty format. Because right now, I can't understand why people would shill out for what I see as awkwardly presented, lazily designed, badly written, immaturely conceived and dubiously tasted Franken-game/books.

I will admit that most visual novels are basically self-insert fantasies designed around high school drama, tension and problems designed only to appeal to Otaku and NEET but at the same time, there are companies like Key that make works that people seem to really like: Little Busters, Kanon, Clannad. In addition, It is still possible for people to feel something from a standardized format: after all, many stories are simply those retold over and over again.

on that note, what are your opinion on either of the Key visual novels I named above, Katawa Shoujo, Grisaia No Kaijutsu, and School Days (School Days is the odd man out since it's a deconstruction of harem VNs)

Of those three you listed, I've only played/read Katawa Shoujo. I think it had better ideas than most in the same kind of setting, but over all I felt the quality of writing was inconsistent, and I didn't like the pacing. Basically the complaint I made above about how the more slice of life stories still need something to pull the plot along. Perhaps if the heart condition was much more of a ticking time bomb in the path I took (Shizune's), or if there was some other looming threat, it might have made the arduous discussions about the council easier to read through.

 

[MrBaskerville]

Isn't this mostly an American thing? Here in Scandinavia nudity isn't that big a deal, just seems like Americans tend to be a bit more prudish when it comes to the human body, while extreme violence is a-ok.

 

[ISearchForTraps]

Because American Culture is extremely prudish when it comes to sex.