Why is The Witcher allowed to portray heterosexual male sexuality while Kojima gets grilled over it?

[thewatergamer]

Because Kojima is much more famous than the witcher series, and therefore has more attention on him, because of that the attention hungry extremists will get alot more of what they want if they hate on Kojima

Aside from that argument, writing is the other major factor, contrary to what some say, the Witcher series handles its sexuality quite seriously with amazing writing and good context, while the metal gear series... uhhh yeah it doesn't exactly handle sex in a mature fashion

 

[Black Reaper]

Without knowing next to anything about MGS or this supposed controversy, maybe it's because at least the female leads in the Witcher series tend to be wearing a shirt the majority of the time?

I mean bikini are great and all, but there's a time and place for that stuff and the battlefield isn't one of them, especially not when trying to be taken seriously.

I second this, the design would be fine if everyone had equally silly outfits, i like stories that take a silly situation seriously(like World Conquest:The Zvezda Plot), but this just looks out of place

 

[endtherapture]

Without knowing next to anything about MGS or this supposed controversy, maybe it's because at least the female leads in the Witcher series tend to be wearing a shirt the majority of the time?

I mean bikini are great and all, but there's a time and place for that stuff and the battlefield isn't one of them, especially not when trying to be taken seriously.

I second this, the design would be fine if everyone had equally silly outfits, i like stories that take a silly situation seriously(like World Conquest:The Zvezda Plot), but this just looks out of place

Here are some very serious character designs in the Metal Gear Solid series. Just for reference of course.

Spoiler

As we can see, everyone has "equally silly outfits" to Quiet when you actually look at some of the other named soldiers in the series.

 

[ExDeath730]

The problem I had was everyone saying MGS was too silly of a series to show rape and other stuff in Ground Zeroes, when the series has had stuff as bad, if not worse since the first one anyway.

I can only speak of MGS 1 and 2, and in those games, no, neither had anything as sensitive as rape. There's also a time and place for such subject matter, and I don't think a goofball conspiracy soap-opera is it. MGS1's [variously hamfisted] existentialism worked fine (apropos 'mature' themes), but sexual assault's a jarring tonal change. I've heard the Ground Zeroes content, and to me it's horribly misjudged verging on exploitative.

In relation to the thread; I have issues with both companies, but I don't think anything CDPR have done is as crass as hearing rape audio in a poorly written [and acted] interrogation scene. If that's there to somehow underline what a badguy The Badguy is? Then, well, Kojima is now nothing but a hack.

Sorry, but...Have you payed attention the Raiden's backstory in MGS2? Conscripting somenone forcefully as as slave child-soldier for me is right up there with Rape in "things that really crosses the line".

OT: Since MGS2 the series tackled serious issues, but most of them were in the backstory, or even in the twists that would happen in the middle/end of the game. That's why you see people fixating in the goofyness, because that's how the series present itself...At first. But at the same time, that's why Kojima coudn't care less about any kind of sensitive opinion about his works. He will make what he want, and it will sell well regardless of anyone doing anything.

About CDPR, there's the thing of them having a really loyal fanbase, and that their games really...Keep you interested when playing them. The first Witcher, after you get to Vizima, you can't stop playing, and the second one? You just can't after starting it, obviously if you like WRPGs. Another thing is that...They don't care about any kind of criticism about sexual stuff, they're from Poland, and they hate being Censored in any way (that's a common thing with people who lived in any kind of dictatorship), social or otherwise, so...They also don't care, most Eastern European devs don't care.

 

[Spartan448]

Quiet is an interesting issue because we still don't know anything about her. Unlike previous MGS titles, the battlefield in TPP is much more of a battlefield, than the forest spygame setting of MGS3 that made Eva somewhat passable. Kojima's characters are always designed the way they are for a *reason* though - Ocelot is a cowboy, Psycho Mantis was supposed to be creepy, The Fear acted like something out of a horror movie, and The Fury was incredibly infuriating. I doubt that Quiet is suddenly an exception made purely for fanservice - there's a story behind her, and there's likely a story behind her appearance as well, and when we find out what that story is, my guess is a lot of people are going to have a lot of egg on their face.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

I wasn't aware that "heterosexual male sexuality" consisted of groping action figures with specially made squishy boobs.

Clearly I have been doing it wrong all these years.

Um, a taste for breasts is almost ubiquitous in heterosexual male sexuality.

 

[endtherapture]

The problem I had was everyone saying MGS was too silly of a series to show rape and other stuff in Ground Zeroes, when the series has had stuff as bad, if not worse since the first one anyway.

I can only speak of MGS 1 and 2, and in those games, no, neither had anything as sensitive as rape. There's also a time and place for such subject matter, and I don't think a goofball conspiracy soap-opera is it. MGS1's [variously hamfisted] existentialism worked fine (apropos 'mature' themes), but sexual assault's a jarring tonal change. I've heard the Ground Zeroes content, and to me it's horribly misjudged verging on exploitative.

In relation to the thread; I have issues with both companies, but I don't think anything CDPR have done is as crass as hearing rape audio in a poorly written [and acted] interrogation scene. If that's there to somehow underline what a badguy The Badguy is? Then, well, Kojima is now nothing but a hack.

Sorry, but...Have you payed attention the Raiden's backstory in MGS2? Conscripting somenone forcefully as as slave child-soldier for me is right up there with Rape in "things that really crosses the line".

OT: Since MGS2 the series tackled serious issues, but most of them were in the backstory, or even in the twists that would happen in the middle/end of the game. That's why you see people fixating in the goofyness, because that's how the series present itself...At first. But at the same time, that's why Kojima coudn't care less about any kind of sensitive opinion about his works. He will make what he want, and it will sell well regardless of anyone doing anything.

About CDPR, there's the thing of them having a really loyal fanbase, and that their games really...Keep you interested when playing them. The first Witcher, after you get to Vizima, you can't stop playing, and the second one? You just can't after starting it, obviously if you like WRPGs. Another thing is that...They don't care about any kind of criticism about sexual stuff, they're from Poland, and they hate being Censored in any way (that's a common thing with people who lived in any kind of dictatorship), social or otherwise, so...They also don't care, most Eastern European devs don't care.

Additionally, sexual assault was tackled in Metal Gear Solid 3. It's first implied and then downright shown to you (in her medical records) that EVA is raped several times in the story by Volgin and that's a game that is 11 years old. It's not like Kojima hasn't been tackling tough moral issues since like...Metal Gear 2.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Sorry, but...Have you payed attention the Raiden's backstory in MGS2? Conscripting somenone forcefully as as slave child-soldier for me is right up there with Rape in "things that really crosses the line".

I spent most of MGS2 trying to pretend Raiden wasn't as pathetic or annoying as he was, but yes, I did pay attention to his backstory (which is probably on par with the cringe worthy child soldier scenes in Beyond Two Souls), and there's a massive difference between how the details of his arc are handled, versus Paz and Chico, although both aren't help by poor writing and dicey voice 'acting'/emoting. Raiden's arc seems more boring, and the rape tape seems even more crass because of it.

Also, Raiden's backstory informs his whole character in 2, and - if I remember correctly - gets a fair bit of attention towards the latter stages. The rape/brutalisation of Paz? It's a frikkin' collectable tape, inessential, and it appears he's using sexual violence against women to underscore bland villainy. And that makes him a terrible - or terribly unimaginative - writer.

He will make what he want, and it will sell well regardless of anyone doing anything.

Quite, and therefore - as with any artist - his work is open to criticism and deconstruction by individuals and groups.

The first Witcher, after you get to Vizima, you can't stop playing,

I've personally only watched an LP of 1, but I know several PC die-hards who did stop playing the first game for various reasons. I love 2, but the LP of 1 was enough to make me steer clear of playing through it myself (ye gods, that combat mechanic... and Triss is rather horridly aggravating in 1).

And as with Kojima, re Witcher's content; you make art, and you're open to criticism and challenges (I think TW2's one of the finest A/RPG's of the last gen, but I have serious issues with how nudity and female characters are often depicted).

They also don't care, most Eastern European devs don't care.

You see that as a positive in this context - I don't.

 

[Petromir]

I wasn't aware that "heterosexual male sexuality" consisted of groping action figures with specially made squishy boobs.

Clearly I have been doing it wrong all these years.

Um, a taste for breasts is almost ubiquitous in heterosexual male sexuality.

And liking breasts has little to do with how appropriate a squish cheasted action figure is...

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Ah, the old "You can't use rape to make a villain seem bad!" arguement.

...which is a shitty arguement. Rape happens. It's not some sacred taboo subject that can't be touched. No matter how well done or shoddy you think it's portrayed.

(y'know, it'd make it so much easier for everyone else if you learned how to quote only that which you're replying to)

No, it's not a "shitty" arguement, it's a fairly unimaginative shorthand way for a - usually male - writer to gain some villainous-villainy leverage; exploit violence - preferable sexual - against a female character. It's a cheap narrative trick in the wrong hands, and Kojima, in this instance with this subject matter, certainly appears to be the wrong hands.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Because rape is some horrible thing that shows the bad guy doing bad things makes its unimaginative?

No, because rape surely needs to be handled with a modicum of intelligence, maturity, and sensitivity. It's cheap as a narrative trick - the violence is almost always against women, coincidentally/suspiciously enough - because it's using a very serious subject in a rather offhand manner. Kojima's scene is exploitative, tacky, crass, cringe worthy (I'm trying to think of a scene in a videogame where rape is handled 'well', but I'm struggling. history will show Kojima's fumbled scene won't be one of them).

It's unimaginative because he's tried to justify the content in the context that it'll make players want to go get the mean ol' baddy more... How do we motivate a male PC and, most likely, a male player? Why, violate and torture a female character, of course! That's pathetic of Kojima. Perhaps if Paz was found in a fridge instead of strung up, he could trot out the line that he was being 'subversive'.

It's not the forefront of anything unless you actively seek out the cassette tape or stumble on it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the video I watched a tape falls out of the chopper after extracting Chico, where Snake picks it up and is pretty much told to listen to it for clues about Paz's location. Is that the tape in question?

Even if it's not, the tapes are presented as a means of exposition, I assume for plot (be it as details or just texture) and character. Ergo that's very much to the forefront of the gameplay experience. [edit] (apparently tape 4's found mid mission)

It was shown in a disturbing way that didn't feel forced or over the top.

Hah, really?! I suppose you're more conditioned to Kojima's cartoon worlds, psychology, and characters than I, then.

If this happened 5 years ago no one would of given two shits. But now simply showing a female in any way other than absolute perfect is some sexist bullshit.

That kinda makes you seem rather insecure. Perhaps a videogame writer lazily exploiting sexual violence wouldn't have caused a fuss five years ago, but I see that change as progress. The medium's maturing, and with that process comes more attention and more criticism of what's created.

Apologies to BarryMcCociner for this reverting to a thread about MGS, btw. But to me it also illustrates that whilst both companies deserve a few raised eyebrows with their content, I don't think CDPR have done anything as dense or awkwardly misjudged as the Paz/Chico scene. In that sense, Kojima simply deserves more stick (Quiet still looks like a BS design, but I'll wait til her arc's revealed to judge her, as Kojima's asked). And I don't believe either can be defended on the grounds of 'portrayals of heterosexuality'.

 

[Popido]

Kojima is a person and symbol, he is a straight white white white Japanese cis male. He is rich and famous and actively mocks SJWs, he is well known, rich, white and successful.

The Witcher is made by poor faceless Polish developers who aren't well known.

I think its the opposite. Video game journalists always shit on japanese developers. Japanese studios never talk back, or they believe Japan is so far away they would never find out about it. The younger studios, not run by old men, do reply back occasionally.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Geralt is straight because he was written as straight. Bioware games Mass Effect and Dragon Age, the characters are written with "ambiguity" in mind so the player would have a blank template they can project themselves on to. Not every game has to have Choice. Sometimes you play the character how the developers want the character to be played. If you don't like not having a choice, then it's your choice not to play.

 

[scotth266]

My guess is this: Kojima is Japanese, and since Japanese culture is uninhibited about sex/sexual desires, it fucking TERRIFIES the people who want to be the new gatekeepers of morality.

To these gatekeepers, any expression of male hetero sexual desire is something shameful, but the salacious, steamy gay sex of Dragon Age is to be saluted as the ultimate act of social courage (even though Bioware, the game's developer, has been catering to that crowd for over a decade now - their work hardly qualifies as courageous at this point). To the sort of people that think any expression of straight male sexuality is dangerous, Japanese sexual mores are the Antichrist - their entertainment openly jokes about male perversion. Watching an anime like "Maji de Watashi ni Koi Shinasai!" would probably send these people into fits of apoplexy.


Indeed, whenever anime, manga, or otaku culture comes up in certain circles (the sort of circles that hype sites like The Mary Sue, Polygon, or Kotaku) there will inevitably be a lot of sighing and disappointment regarding how "weirdly sexual" certain Japanese entertainment can be. A good semi-recent example is how The Mary Sue tried to shame the Soul Calibur devs for hiring a hentai artist to make a sexy outfit for Ivy.

My question is: why are people bothering to attack Japan for being "weird" and "too sexual," when Japanese entertainment is so even-handed about selling sexual entertainment? Unlike American comic books (which tend to be overwhelmingly be marketed towards men) manga has entire GENRES for female readers. Shoujo manga like Fruits Basket is aimed squarely at young women, while Josei manga like Nana covers the teen demographic. There's also stuff like yaoi or "Boy's Love" manga, which caters to the sexual interests of fujoshis. There's apparently even a genre of hentai made specifically for gay men.


I can understand people getting frustrated about how certain forms of popular entertainment are so focused on a particular type of sexuality. But that doesn't make it right to attack the entertainment catering to the that crowd, especially when you attack industries that already provide material for all types of people. Japan is miles ahead of the west in that regard (even though there can still be a lot of tension between male and female manga fans) so I can't understand or condone the "why does this exist" shaming circle-jerk that forms around Japanese entertainment.

Moreover, I have yet to see a convincing argument about how one type of sexual fanservice (aimed at women/homosexual/bi people) is good, while another other type of sexual fanservice (aimed at straight men) is bad. Indeed, I think that if we were going to be honest about ourselves, we would admit that everyone has sexual desires, and let artists design entertainment around them instead of furiously wringing our hands about how certain desires are "perverted/shameful" whereas other desires ought to be treated like sacred cows.



You know, just a thought.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Ok, I gotta weigh in on the squishy boobs on the Play Arts Kai Quiet figure.

I like them. Not in a perverted way, mind you (Okay, some, coz I love boobies), but for the fact that they're advancing toy technology. It's like a high end car feature that eventually becomes standard on all cars. It's not necessarily the first figure to have a fleshy stuff on it, either. Copperhead in the Arkham toy line has a fleshy torso, too, to better help with articulation.
I'm a huge fan of articulation. The mechanics are fascinating, and the more clever they are, the more I appreciate them.
More realistic toys aren't a bad thing (well, they can hurt your wallet pretty roughly), and I welcome all advancements.
Heck, I had a large Duke from the G.I. Joe line that had a somewhat realistic buzz cut. And Skeletor's version of battle cat that had a furriness. It was awesome.

That's about it from me.

 

[Mutant1988]

I don't see how a creepy action figure relates to "heterosexual male sexuality".

It's just a creepy action figure.

And sure, CDPR catch flak here and there for their portrayal of sexual relationships, I believe people bring up some points about a woman being almost raped then immediately jumping into bed with Geralt

You know there's a difference between rape and having sex with someone you like, right? Unless the incident establishes in the character an aversion to having sex, I don't see the issue here.

Not wanting to be raped =/= Not wanting to have sex - Ever.

It might be poorly written still though, I don't know, I haven't played the game.

but there's also people bringing up issues of Geralt's infidelity to Triss being neglected if the player so chooses to be unfaithful, a possible lack of maturity on part of CDPR

Or they didn't write the narrative to be obnoxiously moralizing about player choices. It is a role playing game and it allowing you to make your own choices based on your own preferences without obnoxiously punishing you for playing it wrong seems like good design.

Games really don't have an obligation to teach good moral values. It's assumed that the adults playing these games can judge this themselves.

, there's also two occasion in TW2 where sex is explicitly used as a quest reward, which may or may not have lead to some "b& in australia" censorship. Apparently it depends on where us Aussies get our copies. These scenes still work for me and my copy's retail.

Again, the narrative does not moralize. And even then, in a medieval setting, that doesn't sound like such an odd thing. Unless the character demands it as his reward, I don't really see any moral issue with it.

 

[Erttheking]

I find both of them to be stupid and juvenile, so I dunno. Then again I find the writing in both games to be nothing short of appealing (For all its attempts to be serious MGS rarely gets entertainment value over over the top B movie material and the Witcher is just a goddamn trainwreck that goes down the worst possible Dark Fantasy route of putting making things dark over coming up with a reason why I should give a shit.) I look forward to the day where we can portray sex in gaming and have it be more than masturbation material. I've got the internet for that.

 

[Guerilla]

Don't worry, feminist crazies are whining about Witcher too now. Just take a look at Arthur Gies' drivel-review on Witcher 3.