Why is The Witcher allowed to portray heterosexual male sexuality while Kojima gets grilled over it?

Erttheking

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BarryMcCociner said:
Zhukov said:
I wasn't aware that "heterosexual male sexuality" consisted of groping action figures with specially made squishy boobs.

Clearly I have been doing it wrong all these years.
Um, a taste for breasts is almost ubiquitous in heterosexual male sexuality.
1. I like boobs and I think a squishy boobed action figure is stupid.

2. Some people prefer asses.
 

Ariseishirou

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Is it just me or is comparing Geralt boning some entirely willing women who obviously enjoyed themselves to military torture and rape a false equivalence? o_O If you can't see why some people would have a problem with the latter and not the former I... don't know what do say to you, really.
 

infohippie

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Depends where you are looking. I have seen a lot, and I mean a LOT of people bashing the Witcher series as sexist, misogynist, and nothing but T&A, certainly not art of any kind. There was even a user on this site who made it her business to enter every single thread where there was any mention at all of The Witcher or CDPR and derail it by posting over and over and over about how horrible and sexist it was and how she would never play it because it was so self-obviously horribly sexist and the cause of all evil in the world.

On the other hand, this is, quite literally, the first I have even heard of this Kojima game at all. So I guess it's all about where you look. Personally, I think you should not care so much. Take the attitude "hater's gonna hate" and just ignore idiots spouting off. Or make a point of laughing at them, which is usually my preferred response. 'Cause TBH, I don't give a shit if someone thinks there is sexism in a particular game. If I like the game in question, I will play it unashamedly. If I don't like the game, I won't. And I think of people making a fuss like that as nothing more than digital curtain-twitchers, and worthy of about as much attention.
 

SecondPrize

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If you want consistency, you're looking to the wrong crowd. Why do people focus on Quiets squeezable bosom when Big Boss' action figure has squeezable pecs and ass? Also, Quiet squeezable ass when? In the interests of equality, of course.
 

Kristoffer

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Fappy said:
That action figure serious creeps me the fuck out. It's on the same level as those anime girl boob-mouse pads. Like, what the fuck? Seriously? Who the fuck buys these?

Get laid, please God!
I know a lot of people who have these, both men and women, and I too used to have a pair when I lived in Japan.

Most of these get laid on a regular basis.

It's almost as if they think the mousepads are funny and/or comfortable!
 

remnant_phoenix

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Darth Rosenberg said:
I heartily second this sentiment:
Zhukov said:
I wasn't aware that "heterosexual male sexuality" consisted of groping action figures with specially made squishy boobs.

Clearly I have been doing it wrong all these years.
I don't quite see the parallel (OP), so I don't see why you're comparing the stick each game/creator gets.

I personally don't see Kojima getting more criticism, so you seem to be overreacting, as well. All I see is a much bigger console IP with one of the most prominent auteurs in the medium getting more attention than a core European RPG dev - ergo it is proportional. I also think both parties deserve some of the criticism they get.

So, yeah. Non-issue is a non-issue? Quoting some random people banging on about Quiet's design is a bit pointless, too, given we really need to see Quiet's story play out to assess whether Kojima's talking a lot of old BS about her arc (I suspect his BS will just be BS, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now).

As for the 'action' figure of the character? It is fucking ridiculous, and it deserves mockery, but to me that's just Japan being Japanese. CDPR haven't, as far as I know, greenlight an oddly fetishistic figurine of Triss. So, again, the comparison doesn't really work. Critics are criticising different things.

LeathermanKick25 said:
Not to mention the whole "MGS is so silly it can't be taken seriously" despite exploring some truly dark themes in the past anyway.
Not to derail the thread, but; it may blow your mind to discover something can be "silly" whilst exploring "dark themes" (whatever they are... ). I'm not a fan of Kojima or MGS in general, but I played MGS and MGS2 multiple times back in the day, and they were certainly both utterly stupidly ridiculously absurd as well as being rather intelligent (neither had "dark themes", though, as far as I could tell).
MGS1 introduced genetically-engineered clone children. MGS2 dealt with child soldiers.

Those are fairly dark if you ask me.
 

Jaegerbombastic

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Darth Rosenberg said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
Ah, the old "You can't use rape to make a villain seem bad!" arguement.

...which is a shitty arguement. Rape happens. It's not some sacred taboo subject that can't be touched. No matter how well done or shoddy you think it's portrayed.
(y'know, it'd make it so much easier for everyone else if you learned how to quote only that which you're replying to)

No, it's not a "shitty" arguement, it's a fairly unimaginative shorthand way for a - usually male - writer to gain some villainous-villainy leverage; exploit violence - preferable sexual - against a female character. It's a cheap narrative trick in the wrong hands, and Kojima, in this instance with this subject matter, certainly appears to be the wrong hands.
So what is "wrong" with the specific scene between Paz, Chico, and Skullface? Also, would you consider something like the rape scene in Girl With a Dragon Tattoo to be a better or worse depiction? It too is also there to establish that the rapist is a bad person.
 

WhiteNachos

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BarryMcCociner said:
http://imgur.com/k7CP1Cz

[Context: These people are all talking about Quiet's action figure having soft breasts.]

"... they used her [Quiet, a character that is in the game] as a marketing tool [for the game that she is a character in] which is unacceptable."

"Why does Japan get a pass for everything? They're like a cuter Saudi Arabia." [I won't even touch the racial undertones of that statement, but they're there.]

"I wonder how Joosten [who made the conscious decision to sell her likeness to Konami to create this game] feels after seeing her (kinda boss) upload a picture of [someone] squishing the breasts on a figure modeled after her."

I can't be the only one who finds this incredibly ridiculous, can I? I mean, this is unarguably less of an issue than The Witcher's portrayal of rape, yet I never saw people being this up-in-arms about that.

With the brouhaha that's happening in gaming right now, I'd very much appreciate a little consistency coming from the masses.
The consistency is they are the prudish, sex-negative branch of feminism looking for targets so they pick the more mainstream one.

Oh my god a fictional character was objectified! Who the fuck cares except for moral busybodies? Fictional characters are literally designed for our amusement (or at least someone's amusement), same with action figures.

I like how they act like the existence of this game means negative "progress" when it comes to women in gaming, as if you know this game can't co-exist with whatever you deem to be progress. Unless by progress you mean women shall never look sexy in game again. I honestly don't understand why a game being made to be fap material for straight men is a really bad thing that must be stopped.

I also like how they parrot "exposure to art influences people's world views". It can, but that doesn't mean it'll influence them the way you think it does, so you still have to pony up evidence that this is a problem. I like their false dichotomy that either you think games have 0 influence or you have to agree with them whenever they think something causes real world sexism.
 

WhiteNachos

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Darth Rosenberg said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
Because rape is some horrible thing that shows the bad guy doing bad things makes its unimaginative?
No, because rape surely needs to be handled with a modicum of intelligence, maturity, and sensitivity.
Why? Putting aside the fact that every single one of those things is subjective, why is it bad if some people choose to be immature about it?

Darth Rosenberg said:
It's cheap as a narrative trick
So is a villain that wants to take over or destroy the world. But there's no movement to say those plots should stop.

Darth Rosenberg said:
- the violence is almost always against women, coincidentally/suspiciously enough
Hooray, equality, there's finally an avenue in violence in video games that isn't entirely dominated by men. But still isn't this a mirror to how rape works in real life? At least how most people think it does.

Darth Rosenberg said:
- because it's using a very serious subject in a rather offhand manner.
Is it played for humor or is just not the main focus of the story at the moment?

Darth Rosenberg said:
... How do we motivate a male PC and, most likely, a male player? Why, violate and torture a female character, of course!
Why do you think he assumes the player character will be male? Wouldn't this motivation work equally for everyone? I'd say so, even if the victim was male. Why is it a bad thing to use rape this way?
 

WhiteNachos

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erttheking said:
BarryMcCociner said:
Zhukov said:
I wasn't aware that "heterosexual male sexuality" consisted of groping action figures with specially made squishy boobs.

Clearly I have been doing it wrong all these years.
Um, a taste for breasts is almost ubiquitous in heterosexual male sexuality.
1. I like boobs and I think a squishy boobed action figure is stupid.

2. Some people prefer asses.
And I'm sure there's women who prefer not to use strap ons and men who prefer not to use fleshlights. There's no reason to attack their existence though.
 

irishda

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WhiteNachos said:
And I'm sure there's women who prefer not to use strap ons and men who prefer not to use fleshlights. There's no reason to attack their existence though.
Which one of those is being marketed as a toy?
 

WhiteNachos

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irishda said:
WhiteNachos said:
And I'm sure there's women who prefer not to use strap ons and men who prefer not to use fleshlights. There's no reason to attack their existence though.
Which one of those is being marketed as a toy?
Is it being marketed to children? Because not all toys are for children, like the Breaking Bad action figures.
 

Danbo Jambo

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Who cares? :)

Having just read Gamesradar's review of TW3 I am buzzing, absolutely BUZZING for this game from the second I read "it's NOT an open world game"!! 😊

No faffing about with filler, no mindless dicking around for the COD crew, a deep, brilliant STORY DRIVEN game.

A God thankyou devs, thankyou so much for resisting the temptation to sell out and ruin the game.

Just awesome
 

Darth Rosenberg

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To both members quoted; I won't reply about the MGS:GZ scene specifically until I've watched a full LP (I assume there's some around YT), as well as, if possible, heard all the tapes. I assume you've both played through it, so I am at a disadvantage where context's concerned.

Jaegerbombastic said:
Also, would you consider something like the rape scene in Girl With a Dragon Tattoo to be a better or worse depiction? It too is also there to establish that the rapist is a bad person.
I've only seen the Swedish original once, so I can only go from that.

I think rape is treated far more maturely and sincerely in that - that much is obvious (no risible voice acting or b-movie sound design/effects goes a long way to ensuring that). And I disagree about the function of the scene; it has more to do with Lisbeth's experience than 'derp, bad guy is bad!'. 'Our' perspective in the trilogy is really her perspective, and so the scene feels more of a horribly mundane intrusion. I think an optional audio log - which can be played at any time - is a terrible vehicle to deal with sexual assault (perhaps especially in a pulpy action stealth IP).

We also see its psychological consequences, and how she processes her experience.

WhiteNachos said:
So is a villain that wants to take over or destroy the world. But there's no movement to say those plots should stop.
True, but they are open to and deserve criticism nonetheless. I love Joss Whedon's work, but damn, Ultron? Must Try Harder for his motivations and goals needed to be stamped on earlier scripts. Ditto Dragon Age Inquisition's woeful villainous villain.

But still isn't this a mirror to how rape works in real life? At least how most people think it does.
Taking UK statistics - as opposed to pulling a generalisation out of the air (not accusing you of that, btw) - of rape between 2009 and 2012, yes, it appears there's a significant bias towards female victims[footnote]How the stats were arrived at, and how might they be skewed is up for debate, but I doubt 'perfect' stats would greatly alter the numbers; 69K female to 9K male[/footnote]. So the rather normalised depiction of violence of various forms against women is just a reflection of reality, nothing more? I disagree; I see endemic problems in society, and those are reflected in our media/pop culture. Kojima's reputation suggests he's an ambitious and self-aware creator - which, to me, would then suggest his created work be far more than a simple, dumb reflection of the way society is.

I'd argue - at the moment, before I've seen ZG all the way through - he does nothing but exploit sexual violence for shock value. He's free to do that, and I and others are free to call him a hack for doing so. If an LP changes my mind on that count, I'll say so.

Why do you think he assumes the player character will be male?
I don't understand your question. Unless Snake's (whichever the hell one it is in Ground Zeroes) gender is undetermined in the story, the scene is being written to motivate a male PC, i.e. Snake. If that was a typo and you're asking why I assume he'd assume the player was male, then that is an assumption on my part regarding the demographics of MGS. If someone can produce demographic splits on the MGS fanbase over a few years to prove me wrong, then fair enough.
 

kitsunefather

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It should be noted that the figure for Snake in this line also carries this flexible plastic skin; it is just easier (and more media capturing) to illustrate that on the female character's breasts.
 

Remus

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There's good naked and bad naked. Hot redhead in a forgotten ruin/hotspring, cue steamy swim and other things? Good naked. Creeping around enemy base, side-flipping while holding your scrotum to avoid detection? Bad naked. One is sexy, one isn't even utilitarian, just awkward.
 

Erttheking

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WhiteNachos said:
erttheking said:
BarryMcCociner said:
Zhukov said:
I wasn't aware that "heterosexual male sexuality" consisted of groping action figures with specially made squishy boobs.

Clearly I have been doing it wrong all these years.
Um, a taste for breasts is almost ubiquitous in heterosexual male sexuality.
1. I like boobs and I think a squishy boobed action figure is stupid.

2. Some people prefer asses.
And I'm sure there's women who prefer not to use strap ons and men who prefer not to use fleshlights. There's no reason to attack their existence though.
It's a good thing no one is doing that then. At least not here.
 

Jaegerbombastic

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Darth Rosenberg said:
To both members quoted; I won't reply about the MGS:GZ scene specifically until I've watched a full LP (I assume there's some around YT), as well as, if possible, heard all the tapes. I assume you've both played through it, so I am at a disadvantage where context's concerned.
So you haven't even played the game? Not even seen a complete playthrough?

Let me try to put this in a way that doesn't come off as a personal insult: remember back when Mass Effect 1 came out and that one Conservative pundit who never played the game heard about the sex scene and proceeded to go on Fox News and declare the game was disgusting smut filled to the brim with alien gangbangs? Don't be that person. You really need to hear the tapes in the context of the mood and setting of the campaign. Ground Zeroes is dark game that shows a very blunt and (sadly) realistic portrayal of how badly POWs can be treated. You're not going to find fat men on rollerskates.
 

khoryos

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endtherapture said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
endtherapture said:
People don't understand what is normal for Japanese media. Japanese media is one of huge tonal shifts, between serious stuff and incredibly dark stuff. People apply Western standards on sexuality to Japanese created characters like Quiet. Additionally sexualised characters in Metal Gear always have a reason for it - see EVA and Paz for two sexualised characters who are sexualised on their own terms to manipulate male characters.

Also if the Chico = Quiet theory is true then the people who are pissed off are going to feel pretty stupid.
The two leading theories are that, and one where shes horribly disfigured and it's some sort of hologram device (which can also make her invisible, like octocamo from MGS4). Either way the people getting pissed off over how a game character looks are stupid regardless.
The other theory is that she's related to The End, and is dressed like that since she has to photosynthesise like he did.

Yep MGS has never been one for subtle character designs either. The whole series is basically a post modern Tom Clancy crossed with an anime and that's half the charm of it. If you can't take crazy character designs and massive tonal shifts then MGS isn't the game series for you.

No need for prudes to try to force their way in to a series and demand it change to fit to their world view.
Didn't the TGS gameplay demo already cover why she dresses like that?
She has chromatophores in her skin, making it natural octocamo.
 

GladiatorUA

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Because Witcher games did not come out during SJW boom? Because Witcher aligns more with western(christian) sensibilities as opposed to very foreign Japanese? Because MGS is bigger? Because a lot of people haven't read Witcher books and don't know the context for some characters and conflicts? Because a lot people get information from tweets(140 characters) and highly upvoted(filtered and interpreted) comments?

You know, usual internet outrage ignorance, narrow-mindedness and reduction of parts of the fiction to one aspect.

What's wrong with a figurine with soft boobs? What's wrong with boob mousepads? It's all about attitude. Objects are not creepy. People's behavior is.

Someone wanted diversity(cultural, in addition to everything else)? Here it is.