Why is there such snobbery towards Hip-Hop?

[Littaly]

I used to hate hip hop, thinking that it wasn't music. But I was 13 or so at the time, so I think I can be forgiven for it ^^

These days I don't hate it, it just doesn't click for me. I acknowledge it as a music genre like any other, I can even see what it is in it that people like, but it just doesn't appeal to me at all. There are a few exceptions to confirm the rule of course, but other than that, it's just not my thing.

 

[repeating integers]

I keep hearing bad things about Insane Clown Posse. Since I'm wary of youtubing an artist as despised as all that, and the Wiki page is completely neutral (with the critics merely disliking, rather than hating them), could someone please explain why they are so bad to me?

And I think I've evangelised Dr. Steel too much already on another thread. Still, go check him out, he's good.

 

[joeman098]

Oh its def music most of it is complete bull and pisses me off but some of it is very good. i hate the stuff that just goes on about drugs and killing people and hookers and all the stuff that said artist wishes he was out doing.

 

[Gralian]

The most obvious reason i can think of for disliking Hip-Hop (read: rap) is that it deconstructs traditional ideas of 'singing'. What really bugs me about it is that rapping is still classified as singing, when nothing is being sung. Yes, you have to match your words to the rhythm of the beat, but it's not singing. It's just talking poetry to a beat. It makes you initially think "Well, any moron can do that. It takes real talent to be able to sing and hold a note." I know matching your words to the beat is harder than it seems - but this is at a first glance, and therefore initial reactions will be just that. It's the same with 'growling' music, where people scream into a microphone to loud noise. It's not singing, it's straining your voice and screaming because you don't have the talent to actually sing. Again, that's not true because growling is incredibly hard to do and so requires some real talent - but that's what an outsider is going to think when exposed to that sort of music without any knowledge of it.

I think as well part of the problem with rap, particularly "deep rap" where the artist has something really affecting to say, is that it's hard to keep up with what's being said and so if the listener loses interest for even a second he's lost and can't work out what the song is about or what the artist is trying to say. People can't be expected to listen so intently to something they have a vaguely passing interest in.

Lastly, the worship of gang culture seen from idiots like 50 cent really gives the rapping scene a bad name and you can't help but associate bling-bling, "bitches in tha hood" and "cappin' n****s and cops" with rap. I don't like that, i don't like the disrespect towards women, society, and civility. I understand (some) rap had its roots in this kind of poor background and that's where a lot of the inspiration comes from, but i don't like it being such a focal point for all the mainstream rap music. I think artists should use those experiences to say something meaningful about the world they're in, not to recount and glorify those days of hardship in order to try and get the audience to empathise and ultimately emulate that 'brought up in the hoodz' attitude, because that's the sort of things that create groups of aggressive youths.

 

[walrusaurus]

See i would make a distinction between Rap, and Hp-Hop. Pretty much everything from the 90's is Rap, and there are still a lot of great Rap artists out there today like Devlin. Hip-hop on the other hand, in my mind, refers to the modern 'gansta rap' trend, where all the music is about fucking bitches, shooting cops, and dealing drugs. Subject matter aside, the bulk of the people putting out these songs, wouldn't stand up as actual artists. Most all of it is sped-up, auto-tuned, and vocoded, over one of half a dozen boiler-plate drum machine tracks. there is not a lick of musicality or originality in it.
I'd say its the 'pop' of urban music, but what passes for R&B these days pretty much takes the cake on that one *shudder*

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with many, it's like most genres, the shit floats to the top, and the stuff that sells, and the stuff that deserves to be selling, are two very different groups.

Remember, Justin Bieber and the Beatles are the same genre, hell they're even the same sub-genre of 'boy band'. Doesn't mean all pop is shit or wonderful.

Not all rap is about ho's n guns, not all metal is grunting idiocy about satan, and not all pop is endless reworkings of 'I love you'.

 

[smithy_2045]

Poetry, which is essentially what rap is, isn't music. Artistically valid, yes, music, no.

Poetry in a rythm, and rythm is music.

Two things wrong with your response.

#1 - Rhythm is a necessary component of music, but it is not the only one. You can have a rhythm without it being music.

#2 - Most poetry has a rhythm, regardless of whether it is rap. Otherwise it's just a sentence or a paragraph.

 

[Gloomsta]

Poetry, which is essentially what rap is, isn't music. Artistically valid, yes, music, no.

Poetry in a rythm, and rythm is music.

Two things wrong with your response.

#1 - Rhythm is a necessary component of music, but it is not the only one. You can have a rhythm without it being music.

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

 

[smithy_2045]

Poetry, which is essentially what rap is, isn't music. Artistically valid, yes, music, no.

Poetry in a rythm, and rythm is music.

Two things wrong with your response.

#1 - Rhythm is a necessary component of music, but it is not the only one. You can have a rhythm without it being music.

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

If I tap my fingers on the table in a pattern, it's a rhythm, but it's not music.

 

[Gralian]

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

Stage plays, for one. Could you really consider the iambic petameter spoken by actors to be 'music'? After all, it has a definite rhythm - anyone who's studied literature would know that. No. It's not musical at all. It had a rhythym - it would have to have a rhythm or it wouldn't sound right - but that doesn't qualify it as music. I believe this is what can also be applied to rap. Like stage plays, it has a definite rhythm, but that doesn't make it automatically musical de facto.

 

[Gloomsta]

Poetry, which is essentially what rap is, isn't music. Artistically valid, yes, music, no.

Poetry in a rythm, and rythm is music.

Two things wrong with your response.

#1 - Rhythm is a necessary component of music, but it is not the only one. You can have a rhythm without it being music.

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

If I tap my fingers on the table in a pattern, it's a rhythm, but it's not music.

So your saying that percussion isnt music?

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Also just to prove that it's not all gangstas n weed, here's the UK's Dan Bull, with two pieces on piracy, the ACTA bill, and the US Healthcare issue, someone writing about current affairs, and you'll notice he's rather lacking in bling and humvees too.


and its not all heavy political stuff, he's a gamer too:

 

[Gloomsta]

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

Stage plays, for one. Could you really consider the iambic petameter spoken by actors to be 'music'? After all, it has a definite rhythm - anyone who's studied literature would know that. No. It's not musical at all. It had a rhythym - it would have to have a rhythm or it wouldn't sound right - but that doesn't qualify it as music. I believe this is what can also be applied to rap. Like stage plays, it has a definite rhythm, but that doesn't make it automatically musical de facto.

If it is in a rythm, it can be music, but i guess no one listens to the iambic petameter for music, but if they did, it could qualify.

Rapping is done right next to music, like it or not, it is rythmic and done with music in mind.

If rapping wasnt music, what is exactly the problem with that, the quality, or enjoyment would still be the same anyway.

 

[Mudze]

I like a fair amount of rap and hip-hop. But most of it is utter shite. No sense of rhythm or tone, barely any vocabulary that extends beyond the basics, the vulgar and the colloquial. Not all of it, just the vast majority. It's enough to put anyone off it if you weren't exposed to it a lot.

 

[Soveru]

Its popular. Its cool to hate popular stuff. Makes you 'special'

 

[Les Awesome]

The only True Hip-Hop Group I ever liked was the Beastie Boys
but then again they were more Rap-Rock so I'm hardly an expert
though if you "Hip-Hop" at its best....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Y0cy-nvAg&ob=av2e or http://www.youtube.com/watchv=4B_UYYPbGk&ob=av2e
Great Humor and Satire in each

 

[Gralian]

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

Stage plays, for one. Could you really consider the iambic petameter spoken by actors to be 'music'? After all, it has a definite rhythm - anyone who's studied literature would know that. No. It's not musical at all. It had a rhythym - it would have to have a rhythm or it wouldn't sound right - but that doesn't qualify it as music. I believe this is what can also be applied to rap. Like stage plays, it has a definite rhythm, but that doesn't make it automatically musical de facto.

If it is in a rythm, it can be music, but i guess no one listens to the iambic petameter for music, but if they did, it could qualify.

Rapping is done right next to music, like it or not, it is rythmic and done with music in mind.

If rapping wasnt music, what is exactly the problem with that, the quality, or enjoyment would still be the same anyway.

No, it couldn't. Being able to say "NOW-is-the-WIN-ter-of-OUR-DIS-con-TENT" (that is iambic pentameter) to make each line match a clear rhythm does not give it a musical quality. You can't just say "Well if we call it music then it's music".

I think that's the problem with your perspective. You're so focused on something having the a label to validate it. One thing in particular you said "if rapping wasn't music, what is the problem" holds particularly true; what DOES it matter if rap is or isn't classified as 'music'? It doesn't make what it does any less valid and we're certainly not saying you shouldn't enjoy it. I just feel that rap has more in common with actors reciting poetry in iambic pentameter in rhythm than it does to typical definitions of music with held notes that are sung and a clear musical score as opposed to repetitious beats.

 

[Gloomsta]

What rythm doesnt qualify as music then?

Stage plays, for one. Could you really consider the iambic petameter spoken by actors to be 'music'? After all, it has a definite rhythm - anyone who's studied literature would know that. No. It's not musical at all. It had a rhythym - it would have to have a rhythm or it wouldn't sound right - but that doesn't qualify it as music. I believe this is what can also be applied to rap. Like stage plays, it has a definite rhythm, but that doesn't make it automatically musical de facto.

If it is in a rythm, it can be music, but i guess no one listens to the iambic petameter for music, but if they did, it could qualify.

Rapping is done right next to music, like it or not, it is rythmic and done with music in mind.

If rapping wasnt music, what is exactly the problem with that, the quality, or enjoyment would still be the same anyway.

No, it couldn't. Being able to say "NOW-is-the-WIN-ter-of-OUR-DIS-con-TENT" (that is iambic pentameter) to make each line match a clear rhythm does not give it a musical quality. You can't just say "Well if we call it music then it's music".

I think that's the problem with your perspective. You're so focused on something having the a label to validate it. One thing in particular you said "if rapping wasn't music, what is the problem" holds particularly true; what DOES it matter if rap is or isn't classified as 'music'? It doesn't make what it does any less valid and we're certainly not saying you shouldn't enjoy it. I just feel that rap has more in common with actors reciting poetry in iambic pentameter in rhythm than it does to typical definitions of music with held notes that are sung and a clear musical score as opposed to repetitious beats.

My knowledge is running low here lol. But i feel that rapping is still musical, the rapping has melody that can be replicated, although its sometimes atonal.

In terms of my perspective, i somewhat like the ideas of musique concrete that any unconventional sounds can be made to sound melodic, as is the case of Public Enemy and RZA's production(also Jeru The Damaja's debut album), they manage to harmonise atonal noise into music. I find it exciting that they manage to make all these things work for human ears and gain recognition for it.

But i also think music should be approached with subjectivity and openmindedness because it opens up new ideas and venues, and for this reason id be willing to accept certain things as music. This is personal opinion.


But yea, even if "rapping" isnt considered music, that doesnt stop me from enjoying it, but it shouldnt be used as an argument against Hip Hop/Rap. Its more like moving from paintings to movies. Neither is superior and but both serve their purpose.

Its funny that people are ready to disregard this new art form where you combine story telling, ambient atmosphere and music into a new media experience. There is so much potential to it.

 

[Hazy992]

BTW I don't care if you don't like it. I'm asking why people are so snobbish and derogatory towards it. I don't like Country (except for Johnny Cash) but I'm not going to insult all Country artists and anyone who listens to it.

 

[Hazy992]

Now I LOVE Hip-Hop, it's one of my favourite genres and I listen to it probably every day. So it frankly pisses me off when some people (and I must stress, SOME) start saying that rap isn't real music or that it isn't worth their time, thinking they're better than those that listen to it.

Now I know some rap has its problems, like Lil Wayne and 50 Cent being derogatory to women and the sheer idiocy of the Insane Clown Posse, but how can you lump that nonsense with the golden age rap of Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash and the like or the more alternative stuff of Tyler The Creator or Immortal Technique? Hip-hop is a valid art form just like other genres of music.

I've even heard some people (including here on The Escapist) say that rap, by definition, isn't music at all! Webster defines music as 'vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony.' Hip-Hop clearly hits these criteria.

BTW I'm not a Hip-Hop elitist or anything like that. I listen to loads of genres; Punk, Metal, Soul, Funk, Pop, Dubstep, D'n'B, Grime. If it sounds good I'll listen to it. It just annoys me that people are so harsh and dismissive of something I love so much.

TLDR; why are people so dismissive of Hip-Hop? It's a legitimate genre of music, and a legitimate art form.

Poetry, which is essentially what rap is, isn't music. Artistically valid, yes, music, no.

Not just poetry though is it? It has rhythm, it has melody. It's music. End of. You're personal preference is irrelevant