Why is there such snobbery towards Hip-Hop?

Nickolai77

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I know little about rap and hip-hop, beyond what i've heard it playing out of someone's car or in a nightclub, so i try not to slag it off.

From what i know about music, a lot of the bad stuff floats to the top, drowning out the actual good stuff which is only known by those who are truly into the genre. So, i assume there is good rap and hip-hop, but i'm not going to go out and find it because the genre as a whole doesn't really interest me.

This is because it's a type of music produced by, and for, predominantly black Americans. I'm not black, nor American, and i'm not interested in Black-American culture so i don't really find the genre of much interest.

I'm sure there is hip-hop and rap that can qualify as "good music", but as said i'm not going to make an effort to find it, and anyway, just because a piece of music may be "good", doesn't mean i'll *like it*.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Retronana said:
Volf99 said:
Immortal Technique? Really? You call that the "golden age of rap"? Have you heard the song Dance with the Devil by Immortal Technique? It's about rape/incest. smh
I like how you judge that song from it's contents and not the message, the message being that men in the ghetto are unknowingly destroying it's only salvation: the women who will raise the next generation. It also states how our destruction always comes from our own actions.

Judging IT off one song isn't really on, that being said he was harder to understand in his earlier work.

OT: I tend to get annoyed with the other end of the spectrum, the hipsters who instantly dismiss artists like Lil Wayne despite not hearing a single track of his, or judging someone from a single song. Admittedly I think lil wayne is shit but he has a few decent tracks with some lyrical value to them.
You can deliver a message without graphically depicting someone orally raping their own mother. For example (while I don't think he is a role model) the song "I can" by Nas attempts to tell children how to grow up, and there is nothing disgusting about it.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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VladG said:
Volf99 said:
Hazy992 said:
Now I know some rap has its problems, like Lil Wayne and 50 Cent being derogatory to women and the sheer idiocy of the Insane Clown Posse, but how can you lump that nonsense with the golden age rap of Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash and the like or the more alternative stuff of Tyler The Creator or Immortal Technique? Hip-hop is a valid art form just like other genres of music.
Immortal Technique? Really? You call that the "golden age of rap"? Have you heard the song Dance with the Devil by Immortal Technique? It's about rape/incest. smh
Yes, but it's not glorifying it, quite the contrary. Immortal Technique's work is generally strong on social commentary and the delivery is appropriately gritty.

Guess my thoughts on the matter were best summarized by Chris Rock: I love hip hop, but I'm tired of defending it


Actually, what the heck, gonna post this in anyway: I'm an avid hip-hop fan. Like, I very rarely listen to anything else. Not because I dislike it, simply because I love hip hop so much that there's little time for me to listen to anything else.

That being said, I hate exactly what most people who dislike rap hate about it too: lyrics usually glorify adolescent power fantasies of inner city life and drug culture as well as objectifying women, underlying hypocrisy of it all, the "ghetto" culture, etc.

That is not what this music is about. It's only it's latest "public" face. I fucking hate 50 Cent, I consider most of his work garbage. He's just one example. And yet I still love hip hop with a burning passion, because for every 50 Cent out there, there are 3 less known Killah Priests (don't let the name fool you, listen for example to "From Then Till Now" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-jkqwz2HM, a song that's against all that crap above), Aesop Rocks and Sage Francis... eeer... 'es

Basically what I'm saying is don't judge the whole genre based on a few examples. I understand why you don't like it. But try to understand why we DO like it before judging.
If as other people have claimed, the song is about showing people why not to be a "gansta", then I think it could have been done in a less graphic manner. For example the song "I Can" by Nas


Off topic but I hate Chris Rock because of his racism against white people.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Soveru said:
Its popular. Its cool to hate popular stuff. Makes you 'special'
nope, more like because of the glorification of being a criminal, violent, misogynistic, and racist. It being poplar might attract more hate, but there is a legitimate reason why people don't like it.
 

Skoosh

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From a technical standpoint, a lot of it isn't very impressive. Instruments aren't really being played, you don't need to have a beautiful voice or even sing. That's why so many people get into it and think they have a shot. It's probably the easiest genre to music in.

So that leaves the lyrics, the most important part for that genre. A lot of the lyrics are shallow and just plain bad. You know it, we all agree here that there's a ton of popular stuff that's poorly written. But as for the "good" rappers, most of us can't relate. It's not targeting my culture, my demographic. So people brush it off and say they don't care because they don't. You just have to deal with the fact that not everyone will understand your favorite genre of music.

Punk has a similar problem. There are rarely any punk musicians that are really that good at playing an instrument or singing, the lyrics are always the same few anti-establishment crap, it's just not great. The difference is I can relate a bit more to punk, so I can see the sincerity and emotion behind a lot of it. I don't relate to rap and hip-hop, so I don't see that sincerity, just isn't a genre for me. But even with lyrics tailor-made for me, I still wouldn't be wild about it. That style of music just doesn't speak to me. It doesn't speak to most people here, so simply enjoy your music and move on. It's okay for someone on the internet to not like the same things you like.
 

Hiroshi Mishima

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Going back into this thread and reading some of the responses is both amusing and a bit disappointing. It seems the TC has already made up their mind and either disregards or attempts to debunk everyone's opinions that don't align with his own. It's a rather commonplace issue in such topics, but it is still a bit sad to see it all the time, especially when they seem to be genuinely interested in knowing why.

Gralian and Smithy have made very valid points. I myself have stated frequently (not in here) that rhythm does not automatically mean music. A good example is my tendancy to make four rapid taps/clacks repeatedly. It sounds rhythmic and it's supposed to, cause it's something for me to focus on when I'm having problems or have nothing else to do (like if I'm waiting on something). It's most certainly not music, but it is definitely a rhythm.

Also, something I didn't touch on in my previous post is that I often notice a lot of rap lyrics don't make a lot of sense or will use lines/words which have nothing to do with the song JUST for the sake of making it rhyme, which I've always had a problem with.


I really don't wanna get into the culture aspect again, I think plenty of people have already driven that point home. Especially cause it reminds me of non-musical cultures which also tend to glorify rape, racism, and misogyny...


EDIT: I just realized something I totally missed until someone else's comment reminded me. The idea that most of the dislike came from the generation of 50cent and Eminem.. that's really not too far from the truth. Admittedly, I enjoyed a fair amount of what was clearly called hip-hop back in the 80's and early 90's. Bobby Brown, Run DMC, TLC, Will Smith, etc.. But by the mid 90's and onwards, there was a definite shift in the view many had of the genre. I think it does tie into the idea that rap and hip-hop have become the "easy route" for breaking into the music scene.

It also reminded me of something else. A lot of rapping back in the old days had nothing to do with music, it was a way of talking. Poetry is NOT music, gods I can't believe people are still insisting that. Someone go take a look at The Cheat Commandos for a moment, it's the only modern example I can think of at the moment. There's one guy who rhymes all of his sentences. Is he singing? Gods, no, he isn't.
 

Atmos Duality

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I've heard good lyrics to strong beats before. There's a couple of clubs/dives near campus that host a variety of local talent (and some of these people are genuinely talented; not just buzzing Autotune drones) ranging widely: Punk, Rock, Metal, R&B, Rap, Blues and even some really good Jazz.

So I know that there is at least potential for good music (beyond niche' appeal). The local talent at least *tries*.

However, that's not what I'm forced to listen to regularly. Not even close. The Pod People actually on campus make sure of that by blasting it on their cars, cell phones and mp3 players. Lately, when it isn't the same regurgitated love/money/slutty shit, it's some half-techno party anthem with shitty rhymes.
I don't know who makes it, but I do know that it annoys me greatly.

Oh, and if there's singing, it's always Autotuned to Hell and back.
Autotune, to me, sounds like you took someone's voice, and dragged it kicking and screaming back onto the key it was SUPPOSED to be sung on in the first place, and added an obnoxious buzz to it.

Add to that, that the "singing" and rapping is set to what sounds like a Drum Machine giving Lamaze coaching to an oscilloscope in labor, and it drives me nuts. It's like these "songs" are being deliberately annoying to remain memorable, instead of, y'know, GOOD.

The fact that droves of these talentless hacks can make millions as a result is depressing beyond words. But even ignoring that, I still don't get the message, I can't connect with it, and I hate the resulting sound.
 

Gloomsta

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Skoosh said:
From a technical standpoint, a lot of it isn't very impressive. Instruments aren't really being played, you don't need to have a beautiful voice or even sing. That's why so many people get into it and think they have a shot. It's probably the easiest genre to music in.
Technical doesnt mean good, but you underestimate the difficulty of being a rapper, especially being a good rapper.

And if its the easiest genre to music in, then it will be much harder to make it and stand out.

So that leaves the lyrics, the most important part for that genre.
Who said it was the most important?

A lot of the lyrics are shallow and just plain bad. You know it, we all agree here that there's a ton of popular stuff that's poorly written.
Your opinion.

But as for the "good" rappers, most of us can't relate.
Speak for yourself.

It's not targeting my culture, my demographic.
This is the lamest excuse for critising a genre. It doesnt even make sence.


Punk has a similar problem. There are rarely any punk musicians that are really that good at playing an instrument or singing, the lyrics are always the same few anti-establishment crap, it's just not great. The difference is I can relate a bit more to punk, so I can see the sincerity and emotion behind a lot of it. I don't relate to rap and hip-hop, so I don't see that sincerity, just isn't a genre for me. But even with lyrics tailor-made for me, I still wouldn't be wild about it. That style of music just doesn't speak to me. It doesn't speak to most people here, so simply enjoy your music and move on. It's okay for someone on the internet to not like the same things you like.
Yup you said it.

Opinions.
 

Gloomsta

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Hiroshi Mishima said:
Gralian and Smithy have made very valid points. I myself have stated frequently (not in here) that rhythm does not automatically mean music. A good example is my tendancy to make four rapid taps/clacks repeatedly. It sounds rhythmic and it's supposed to, cause it's something for me to focus on when I'm having problems or have nothing else to do (like if I'm waiting on something). It's most certainly not music, but it is definitely a rhythm.
Are you saying percussion isnt music?

Also, something I didn't touch on in my previous post is that I often notice a lot of rap lyrics don't make a lot of sense or will use lines/words which have nothing to do with the song JUST for the sake of making it rhyme, which I've always had a problem with.
Well you havent listened enough then.

I really don't wanna get into the culture aspect again, I think plenty of people have already driven that point home. Especially cause it reminds me of non-musical cultures which also tend to glorify rape, racism, and misogyny...
I have never heard racism in rap ever. Ive barely heard any Rape. Misogyny is fairly widespread but there are many Hip Hop musicians who dont use misogyny.

EDIT: I just realized something I totally missed until someone else's comment reminded me. The idea that most of the dislike came from the generation of 50cent and Eminem.. that's really not too far from the truth. Admittedly, I enjoyed a fair amount of what was clearly called hip-hop back in the 80's and early 90's. Bobby Brown, Run DMC, TLC, Will Smith, etc.. But by the mid 90's and onwards, there was a definite shift in the view many had of the genre. I think it does tie into the idea that rap and hip-hop have become the "easy route" for breaking into the music scene.
Im inclined to agree that in the 2000s hip hop just isnt as exciting.

It also reminded me of something else. A lot of rapping back in the old days had nothing to do with music, it was a way of talking. Poetry is NOT music, gods I can't believe people are still insisting that. Someone go take a look at The Cheat Commandos for a moment, it's the only modern example I can think of at the moment. There's one guy who rhymes all of his sentences. Is he singing? Gods, no, he isn't.
Thats why its called Rapping/MC-ing but not singing or poetry. But even if rapping is or isnt a musical intrsument.
Thats a shitty ass argument against a genre.
 

The Diabolical Biz

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Hiroshi Mishima said:
I'm sorry, but are you the King of tapping your hand on tables or something? Being able to create a bass line, a varying and complex drum beat, a melodic pattern, scratching, vocal samples, and hooks with only your hand is one heck of a talent.

You should probably go on a show with skills like that.
 

minuialear

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Jazoni89 said:
minuialear said:
Jazoni89 said:
Yes, us Brits take good music genres and turn them upside down, that's what we do best.
Fix'd.

Seriously though, "you Brits" think way too highly of your musical talents.
Why can't we Brits be proud of something for a change, it works for you Americans quite nicely.

How am i thinking "too highly" You Americans have made some great genres, Grunge comes into mind.

It's just that I feel Trip-Hop is infinitely better than Hip-Hop, and if more people knew what Trip-Hop is, then I'm sure that most would agree with me, especially on here.
There's a difference between being proud of something ("We've made some excellent music genres, many of which improve upon their roots") and being pompous about it ("We can take the crap genres from other people and turn them into something worth listening to!"). Take a look at your statement again and try to see which category yours best fits under.
 

Skoosh

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Gloomsta said:
Skoosh said:
From a technical standpoint, a lot of it isn't very impressive. Instruments aren't really being played, you don't need to have a beautiful voice or even sing. That's why so many people get into it and think they have a shot. It's probably the easiest genre to music in.
Technical doesnt mean good, but you underestimate the difficulty of being a rapper, especially being a good rapper.

And if its the easiest genre to music in, then it will be much harder to make it and stand out.
I never said otherwise. I didn't say it was easy to be a good rapper, just that the technical parts of the music are simpler compared to many genres. It's a lot easier to get a beat and speak in rhyme than to play a violin. That doesn't mean it's any worse or better, just pointing that out for one of the reasons a lot of people don't like it. Some people, myself included, enjoy hearing a musician's technical skill, not just artistic vision.

And yes, it is harder to stand out in a flooded genre, but that doesn't mean the people that do stand out are any better or worse than people in other genres either.

So that leaves the lyrics, the most important part for that genre.
Who said it was the most important?
Everything is designed around the words. They aren't playing instruments other than percussion usually, they aren't giving a drum solo (usually just a beat), they aren't singing. It's pretty much deduction: there's not much left but the lyrics, the rhymes and their meaning. If you really want to argue it, okay, I don't care, just figured most everyone agreed on that since it's also what I hear more rap fans say too.

A lot of the lyrics are shallow and just plain bad. You know it, we all agree here that there's a ton of popular stuff that's poorly written.
Your opinion.
Yeah...a very popular opinion stated by fans and haters alike in this very thread, but yes, an opinion. I never said otherwise. Why are you trying to argue every single little point? It's not a debate, silly.

But as for the "good" rappers, most of us can't relate.
Speak for yourself.
This is obvious. Most of the people on this site simply can't relate. I'm not saying you can't or that there aren't other people that can't, just that most of the people on the site can't. Otherwise they wouldn't all be so critical of it.

It's not targeting my culture, my demographic.
This is the lamest excuse for critising a genre. It doesnt even make sence.
Doesn't make sense? The music wasn't written for someone like me, so of course I don't like it. Someone that doesn't like fantasy isn't likely to like Skyrim. An adult isn't likely to enjoy Barney. It wasn't made for them, it was created with a different group of people in mind. You can't please all the people all of the time.

Punk has a similar problem. There are rarely any punk musicians that are really that good at playing an instrument or singing, the lyrics are always the same few anti-establishment crap, it's just not great. The difference is I can relate a bit more to punk, so I can see the sincerity and emotion behind a lot of it. I don't relate to rap and hip-hop, so I don't see that sincerity, just isn't a genre for me. But even with lyrics tailor-made for me, I still wouldn't be wild about it. That style of music just doesn't speak to me. It doesn't speak to most people here, so simply enjoy your music and move on. It's okay for someone on the internet to not like the same things you like.
Yup you said it.

Opinions.
OF COURSE IT'S OPINIONS! We are talking about why people don't like hip-hop. It's a matter of taste, what music we like, OF COURSE it's an opinion. By definition it is. Is that the point you were trying to make with your post? Maybe I was off, you just seemed really dismissive and argumentative with your response. I didn't really see how my post even called for a response. Again, it's okay for someone on the internet to not like the same thing you do.
 

penguindude42

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Hazy992 said:
Now I LOVE Hip-Hop, it's one of my favourite genres and I listen to it probably every day. So it frankly pisses me off when some people (and I must stress, SOME) start saying that rap isn't real music or that it isn't worth their time, thinking they're better than those that listen to it.

Now I know some rap has its problems, like Lil Wayne and 50 Cent being derogatory to women and the sheer idiocy of the Insane Clown Posse, but how can you lump that nonsense with the golden age rap of Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash and the like or the more alternative stuff of Tyler The Creator or Immortal Technique? Hip-hop is a valid art form just like other genres of music.

I've even heard some people (including here on The Escapist) say that rap, by definition, isn't music at all! Webster defines music as 'vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony.' Hip-Hop clearly hits these criteria.

BTW I'm not a Hip-Hop elitist or anything like that. I listen to loads of genres; Punk, Metal, Soul, Funk, Pop, Dubstep, D'n'B, Grime. If it sounds good I'll listen to it. It just annoys me that people are so harsh and dismissive of something I love so much.

TLDR; why are people so dismissive of Hip-Hop? It's a legitimate genre of music, and a legitimate art form.


EDIT: I think there needs to be some clarification here. I really don't mind if people don't like the genre. People have made serious, well thought reasons as to why hip-hop isn't for them, and that's fine. I'm not trying to make people like it, I don't think less of you for not liking it and I hope you don't think any less of me for liking it. What I need to stress, and I really need to stress this, is that I want to know why there is such elitism and snobbery towards hip-hop, not why people simply don't care for it.

LOLNO. Learn to music.

~TOM</3