Why Kinect Would Make For A Bad Spying Device

[Arnoxthe1]

Even if Microsoft wasn't using the Kinect to spy on users, they are already doing so with Skype. Which is also going on the Xbox one, that's food for thought. Regardless, the Kinect is still mandatory, which is ridiculous. I don't need nor want to talk or scream at my console and TV like an idiot. I don't need yet another camera in my home. I have to have the stupid thing in-order to use the console, why? It's not moving gaming forward. Why anyone trusts this company after the Prism debacle is beyond me.

So don't use Skype...

Hope you're not using Windows or any Apple OS because if so, you're still trusting Microsoft/Apple.

Sure, if they did it today. But they'll implement it bit by bit, over a number of years, and slowly but surely people will accept it. I'd rather we didn't set off down that slippery slope in the first place.

10 years ago the idea of having to pay to play games online would have been ridiculous, now both the major consoles are going to require it.

Sure, just as their userbase would steadily drop bit by bit. People are already upset about the small ads on the Home tab of the 360 Dashboard.

It wasn't ridiculous 10 years ago because that's when Live came out. Discarding the argument of time even, paying for online services back then was agreeable because they didn't have the power or the personnel that they have now. They were somewhat stretched for what they had to work with. Besides, you weren't hosting the server to play online on your console unlike online PC games. They were doing that.



You know what though? It's fine if you don't like using the Kinect. I don't either. However, hate it for the right reasons, please.

 

[Lusty]

Sure, just as their userbase would steadily drop bit by bit. People are already upset about the small ads on the Home tab of the 360 Dashboard.

It wasn't ridiculous 10 years ago because that's when Live came out. Discarding the argument of time even, paying for online services back then was agreeable because they didn't have the power or the personnel that they have now. They were somewhat stretched for what they had to work with. Besides, you weren't hosting the server to play online on your console unlike online PC games. They were doing that.

You know what though? It's fine if you don't like using the Kinect. I don't either. However, hate it for the right reasons, please.

How much has their userbase dropped since introducing dashboard ads? I would imagine not very much. You know what they say about boiling a frog?

I don't hate Kinect at all. I certainly won't be bringing one into my home, but that doesn't mean I hate it. I was just responding to your point that it's a bad spying device. It's actually a very good device for the kind of spying Microsoft have in mind.

 

[Blueshadow]

Sure, just as their userbase would steadily drop bit by bit. People are already upset about the small ads on the Home tab of the 360 Dashboard.

It wasn't ridiculous 10 years ago because that's when Live came out. Discarding the argument of time even, paying for online services back then was agreeable because they didn't have the power or the personnel that they have now. They were somewhat stretched for what they had to work with. Besides, you weren't hosting the server to play online on your console unlike online PC games. They were doing that.



You know what though? It's fine if you don't like using the Kinect. I don't either. However, hate it for the right reasons, please.

We do hate it for the right reasons. It's nonsensical, mandatory, and it's probably the reason the console costs $100 more. We don't want, nor asked for it. We certainly didn't want it to be mandatory. Whether it's a spy device has yet to be determined. The fact that the console won't work without out it is insane. Options are good, it seems like Microsoft hasn't figured that out yet.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

It's actually a very good device for the kind of spying Microsoft have in mind.

Eh, no it's not. See OP and my second post in this thread.

 

[nvzboy]

Let's say the xbone sells to about a million people. Now how many of those million people are going to say after playing "don't forget to tape the kinect cam off"?. How many of them will wrap their console in pillows to prevent it from eavesdropping on you? No sane person would do that, and that makes it a good spying tool. Sure there will be a handful of paranoid people out there but the majority of people won't be busy with actively preventing being spyed upon although it is a very real possibilty that they are being spied upon.

We are already being watched day in day out, wether we want it or not and there is very little we can actually do about it. Take the PRISM thing that's going on right now. So if I could help it there would not be another spy-machine in my house.

 

[Saltyk]

Look a Xbox Apologist thread. Is this like those "Why does everyone here hate Nintendo?" threads that have become more popular?

Look, it doesn't matter whether the thing WILL spy on you. It can. And considering it's all part of an unnecessary but forced peripheral that no one actually wants, that capability is just one more nail in the coffin. There are plenty of reasons people don't want to buy the Xbox 180. And the Kinect itself is a deal breaker for multiple reasons (like being a Kinect). If you want one, that's fantastic and I'm happy for you. Others don't.

 

[chinangel]

Look a Xbox Apologist thread. Is this like those "Why does everyone here hate Nintendo?" threads that have become more popular?

Look, it doesn't matter whether the thing WILL spy on you. It can. And considering it's all part of an unnecessary but forced peripheral that no one actually wants, that capability is just one more nail in the coffin. There are plenty of reasons people don't want to buy the Xbox 180. And the Kinect itself is a deal breaker for multiple reasons (like being a Kinect). If you want one, that's fantastic and I'm happy for you. Others don't.

this. if they dropped the goddamn kinect and price i'd consider it. as it stands? nope nope nope nope nope nope

 

[Blueshadow]

Eh, no it's not. See OP and my second post in this thread.

It monitores your heart rate, it watches and detects eye patterns, infra-red, and the camera faces you as you play. If that isn't a perfect device to spy I don't know what is. It might as well be GLaDOS or Hal 9000.

But the point remains we don't want the Kinect, but we are forced to have. If we cover it, i'm pretty sure it will tell us to remove the obstruction. We shouldn't just blindly accept when a corporation tell us, "don't worry, it's not a spy device." The same company that attacks Google on their ads for "bad privacy". Very ironic, indeed.

And what if someone finds a way to hack the camera? They can watch a bedroom or home to spy or look to see if people are home. This "thing" is a security issue as well as anti-consumer.

Gamers shouldn't have to think and weigh these things. We shouldn't have to worry about getting a console.

 

[Smeatza]

And what if someone finds a way to hack the camera? They can watch a bedroom or home to spy or look to see if people are home. This "thing" is a security issue as well as anti-consumer.

This.
I saw an (admittedly sensationalist) article.....
Here it is - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22967622
Surely an Xbox would have less security measures than your average PC, meaning the kind of stuff mentioned in the article would be all the more feasible.

I can't see much profit in it though so I don't think it will be a big issue in reality.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

I'm supposed pay an extra 100 for a camera that I don't even want, for games I'll never even play, or features that I'll never use and then go through the added troubles of wrapping it in pillows and duct tape?

I think I'll just go with the cheaper and more convenient PS4. At least they actually made the camera optional.

It's not just the camera either. Xbox is now placing a ton of focus on the whole "smartphone integration" thing, just another completely pointless addition. It's actually coming to the point where PC gaming will be the easiest option.

 

[J Tyran]

True, smartphones are a more effective way of spying. But you can turn off (most) of those features permanently quite easily. There's the whole PRISM debacle, but that's a different topic.

Without the battery removed (why would you buy something that requires you to do things) you have no way to be sure any phone is not spying on you, turning features "off" just means you turned off the indication in the operating system. Hackers or government agencies that gain access can simply make the notices display "off" when they are actually turned on and they are using them.

Same for if your phone is turned "off" its not actually off, its in a kind sleep mode which can receive a reactivation signal from the network provider. It can also receive a low power reactivation signal that leaves almost all functions like the display etc disabled when the battery is low. You cannot rely on thinking the battery is low for another reason, hackers could make the operating system display low battery warnings and even turn every visible sign of it being on off to make you think the battery was flat and it died. Apart from whatever features like the cameras, microphone and GPS they wanted to abuse of course.

The only way to be totally sure is to be a programmer and able to take the OS apart and examine it or pull the battery out.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Is anybody actually worried about the kinect spying on them? Aside from being being ridiculous that anybody would, if somebody really wanted to watch me eat, play CoD and fap then they are welcome too.

Lets say some poor soul at Microsoft was payed to watch you. Would it really matter?

 

[TeaCeremony]

Seriously i dont think MS give a shit about whether you hate the government or not. They are there to make money, which is going to happen whether or not the gove goes all dystopian on us.

What MS is trying to do imo is advertising revenue. Think about it. You have a game e.g. Halo. Before MS has no idea what demographic actually played Halo and just made an educated guess... now... MS knows; who, how, when, race, gender, time, age of the players. Cross reference this with CoD and the FPS genre suddenly has a set demographic.

Think about how advertisement companies would PAY THROUGH THE NOSE to make advertisements catering to one very specific section of society, a section that has proven to be willing to pay money for frivolous items and can tailor adverts to fit that exact demographic, instead of carpet bombing via youtube, billboards and TV. Adverts suddenly become exponentially effective as all the right things are there e.g. breasts, cars, women etc for the 21-25 yr age group... and class, luxury etc for the 40-50 age group.

Thats why they are trying to put the TV in there, so people can you know... watch tailored ads without them even knowing its happening. The kinect is connected to the TV, and streams from the cable box... and can see who, what etc are watching particular shows.

Oh and MS can track who has registered on said machine, so they can tell when people other than family are on it and make adjustments to calculations based on that e.g. which games are likely to attract audiences and how to appeal to these people.

Then we get things like how the Kinect can detect heartbeats, voices, number of people... so it can detect whether or not you are excited, sad, depressed... christ... its like we are one giant focus group.

All cutscenes can be scientifically created to bring maximum emotion, all action will be tailored for maximum adrenaline and more and more.

MS is ensuring its future in the gaming and entertainment industry by creating frankenstein games that are created purely to bring emotions and enjoyment out of us instead of creating games that bring enjoyment through the love of the developer... which is so very ominous considering MS wont allow indies to create games and force them to go through publishers, which need MS veto to put games on the system.

Welcome to the scientific age of entertainment, where everything has been calculated to bring maximum enjoyment... have fun.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

They'll collect data on you, just like any other connected device out there does.

Well maybe I don't want data collected on me.

I don't want to get caught drinking a can of pepsi, and then suddenly drowned in a torrent of ads from pepsi affiliates.

I don't have a problem with my computer doing the same, because I have a way to make ads... let's just say 'less bothersome' on my computer. I doubt I'll be able to do the same on the xbone.

The problem here is that you say you don't want to be spied on and then go on to say you're fine with being spied on so long as you don't have to see ads. Thus I'm forced to conclude the problem you have isn't with spying, or even targeted advertisement but rather advertisement itself.

Which, I should point out, means you must clearly support paying for services on the internet since the way the internet generally maintains free status is through ads.

 

[Lusty]

It's actually a very good device for the kind of spying Microsoft have in mind.

Eh, no it's not. See OP and my second post in this thread.

I did. And I was responding to them.

Being able to put a pillow on it doesn't mean anything, because most people won't.

Having an unstable internet connection doesn't matter, because it doesn't need to be connected all the time. It could collect data quite happily offline and slowly upload it when it has the opportunity.

It's a brilliant trojan horse. People will voluntarily be installing a listening device in their living rooms on Microsoft's behalf. How is that not a good device for spying?

 

[doomed89]

1. The camera can be easily blocked and the microphone muffled all with a simple pillow.

2. People will inevitably reverse engineer it for their own purposes like what they did with the first Kinect and find anything suspicious and when they do, a big deal will be made about it.

3. I'm sure it can be disconnected after you're done playing on the Xbox One.

Besides, I love how all of you are talking about privacy issues while completely ignoring the fact that smartphones (or actually any phones at all) are a much better, more widespread, and effective way of spying on people.

First of all on your points.

1. Kinect can tell if you are actually there, if you block the camera I'm willing to bet you couldn't play because it doesn't recognize a user, not to mention nobody would actually do either of those things UNLESS IT WAS A SPY DEVICE AND THEY KNEW IT.

2. Because internet rumors by hackers hold so much weight. (note the sarcasm)

3. It has to be on for you to play your xbone so even if you are right there's still plenty of opportunity to spy especially with the tv "features" and such.

As for smartphones they would be worse for spying on people.

1. They don't have built in voice recognition so in order to spy you'd have to literally shift through all audio on all phones by hand which is logistically impossible.

2. Having the mic on constantly would drain the battery and be noticed

3. Sending even small datapacks across the internet using 3G or whatever would show up on people's data plans

4. There isn't enough storage on all phones to store the data until it can be upload without being noticed.

5. There are far more laws established involving phone taps and circumventing those laws would be next to impossible, where there isn't really a precedent for a device like Kinect.

 

[nevarran]

Well maybe I don't want data collected on me.

I don't want to get caught drinking a can of pepsi, and then suddenly drowned in a torrent of ads from pepsi affiliates.

I don't have a problem with my computer doing the same, because I have a way to make ads... let's just say 'less bothersome' on my computer. I doubt I'll be able to do the same on the xbone.

Don't buy a console then. Simple, isn't it?
And it's not just about ads, companies are collecting data on you, and this data affects you one way or another.

Besides what will happen if you see a Pepsi ad, while you drink one? Is someone forcing you to buy it, or something?
There will be an advert in that area of the interface anyway. It may as well be something that you care about.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

I'm done talking to people who can't read the OP at least before posting.

It monitores your heart rate, it watches and detects eye patterns, infra-red, and the camera faces you as you play. If that isn't a perfect device to spy I don't know what is. It might as well be GLaDOS or Hal 9000.

And what if someone finds a way to hack the camera? They can watch a bedroom or home to spy or look to see if people are home. This "thing" is a security issue as well as anti-consumer.

Gamers shouldn't have to think and weigh these things. We shouldn't have to worry about getting a console.

1. Yeah, except for the fact that it's terrible in everywhere else that matters as a spying device.

2. People can spy on you through a webcam, phone- you know what? I don't think you read what I said either. Good day.

First of all on your points.

1. Kinect can tell if you are actually there, if you block the camera I'm willing to bet you couldn't play because it doesn't recognize a user, not to mention nobody would actually do either of those things UNLESS IT WAS A SPY DEVICE AND THEY KNEW IT.

2. Because internet rumors by hackers hold so much weight. (note the sarcasm)

3. It has to be on for you to play your xbone so even if you are right there's still plenty of opportunity to spy especially with the tv "features" and such.

As for smartphones they would be worse for spying on people.

1. They don't have built in voice recognition so in order to spy you'd have to literally shift through all audio on all phones by hand which is logistically impossible.

2. Having the mic on constantly would drain the battery and be noticed

3. Sending even small datapacks across the internet using 3G or whatever would show up on people's data plans

4. There isn't enough storage on all phones to store the data until it can be upload without being noticed.

5. There are far more laws established involving phone taps and circumventing those laws would be next to impossible, where there isn't really a precedent for a device like Kinect.

1. How is it going to detect the pillow when it's off when IT'S ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE MONITORING FOR VOICE? If it did tell you to remove the pillow while it's off then that would mean that the camera IS on and then Microsoft would catch a tidal wave of rage. And people suspecting the Kinect as a spying device doesn't make it a spying device.

2. Yeah, like how Sony's rootkit was never paid attention to when it was revealed by other people, right brah?

3. Actually, they said they will make it to where you can turn everything on it off even when the Xbox is on. As to the possibility of it spying anyway, see first point.

-

1. Who says all they can monitor is voice? It can also tell people where you are easily through simple triangulation which is incredibly beneficial for spying.

2. They don't need or want to have the mic on constantly.

3. Why would they alert you about that in your plan if they were spying on you?

4. It doesn't need to store data nearly as often as you think. Its prime uses as a spying device is finding out location and monitoring voice, all of which can be streamed.

5. What are they gonna do? Make a law prohibiting cameras in homes? Maybe COMPANY sold cameras? That'll narrow it down. Besides, the government hardly pays attention to its own laws anyway.

 

[doomed89]

1. How is it going to detect the pillow when it's off when IT'S ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE MONITORING FOR VOICE? If it did tell you to remove the pillow while it's off then that would mean that the camera IS on and then Microsoft would catch a tidal wave of rage. And people suspecting the Kinect as a spying device doesn't make it a spying device.

2. Yeah, like how Sony's rootkit was never paid attention to when it was revealed by other people, right brah?

3. Actually, they said they will make it to where you can turn everything on it off even when the Xbox is on. As to the possibility of it spying anyway, see first point.

-

1. Who says all they can monitor is voice? It can also tell people where you are easily through simple triangulation which is incredibly beneficial for spying.

2. They don't need or want to have the mic on constantly.

3. Why would they alert you about that in your plan if they were spying on you?

4. It doesn't need to store data nearly as often as you think. Its prime uses as a spying device is finding out location and monitoring voice, all of which can be streamed.

5. What are they gonna do? Make a law prohibiting cameras in homes? Maybe COMPANY sold cameras? That'll narrow it down. Besides, the government hardly pays attention to its own laws anyway.

1. I thought it was only in standby when the xbox one was off (seeing how the command it's listening for is xbox one...) correct me if I'm wrong and you have proof of it.

2. Was their any legal action against Sony, was their a massive outcry? No. (I don't even know what you are referring to so that kinda farther proves my point)

3. Why is the system programmed to not work without it in the first place? And MS never lies right? Also source? I assume by they you mean MS and not xboners.

-

1. Triangulation is too costly to do on mass, they can only tell which is the closest cell tower you are too, though gps devices do do that. But that's completely different from what we are talking about.

2. So then what exactly are they spying on? If they are just recording phone calls that becomes highly illegal with no loop holes and not even that valuable for market research.

3. Who's doing the spying? The data carry? The device maker? Which ones? There are dozens. You see the problem of course it's open source and has to go through a ton of people before it even becomes possible which makes it impossible to keep under-wraps plus they have to pay for the extra data out of pocket which would show up in financial reports ect.

4. You can't stream location from a phone you need to triangulate, and even streaming voice constantly would be costly and what if they are roaming then they are going through a third party and so is your spy packets... you see the issues yet?

5. I'm talking about phone tap laws (ie recording phone calls) the camera is useless for spying purposes as it'd be impossible to send any significant amount of video over every phone on any carrier and most of the video would be of the inside of pockets.