Why Makeb Hits LGBT Players So Hard

[the_real_seebs]

Really nice article, by the way. Read the first page, thought "huh, normal game website coverage". Someone made a comment about the second page, I went and looked.

Wow. Seriously, wow. This is a very impressive bit of writing, and I think you've done a great job of capturing some of the issues that make these topics a source of complication and drama in the gaming world. I would point out: Disney's pretty tolerant of gay stuff these days, their view of "family-friendly" has necessarily adjusted to reflect the fact that gay parents also take their kids to theme parks.

 

[Fwee]

Who would consider Disney "family friendly" if they had family members who were gay?
I'm getting so sick of homophobia, and can't understand why so many people have problems with this issue.
I mean I do KNOW why, just don't understand.
Isn't there a big LGBT event where they completely rent out Disneyland for a day or two and basically make it Prideland? If there isn't maybe we should get started on that.

 

[redknightalex]

I'm still hoping for a future, at least in the sci-fi genre, where this is not a debate, not even an issue. I don't understand how it's not just assumed that in the future sexuality is no longer an issue, much less a big issue.

If I remember rightly, in Peter F Hamilton's "Commonwealth" universe, the issue of sexuality is, from my memory, not an "issue" at all. The character of Oscar Monroe has the history of same-sex relationships brought up when he is first introduced, but no one bats an eyelid and it's never more fully developed. Which is good. There's nothing more annoying than a person whose entire character revolves around their sexuality. So that's one universe in which sense prevails.

That's good to know as he's an author that comes up frequently on my to-read list. My problem was that I could never figure out if I wanted to start with Pandor's Star or The Reality Dysfunction. Always a plus in my book when writers can create a side note of the non-issue "issue" of sexuality and just let the characters be characters. Think it should also apply to the fantasy genre as well but I don't see it there all too often.

(Sorry for the off topic.)

 

[Farther than stars]

That's an interesting perspective and those are definitely some points worth thinking about. I do disagree with one thing though. Writing a specific set of statutes for hate crimes is risky business. Laws are positivistic by nature and differentiating them based on intent opens up a host of legal and moral issues. Personally I ascribe to a combination of philosophies from Max Weber and Oliver Wendell Holmes, whereby laws outline the crimes and proportionate punishments and it's left to judges to interpret them with regard to criminal intent and the impact that that intent has on the cultural environment.
If you do want to consolidate hate crimes in the law, however, it's better to tie them in with existing anti-discrimination legislation.

I held this view for a long time. However, there is a real reason for such laws to exist, which is that the effects of crimes are not quite linear with their frequency. Having something be sufficiently pervasive gives it a huge multiplier in its effect and harm, so there are real reasons to modify rules that have to do with crimes which are likely to be pervasive for some people and not for others. So basically, in the real world, these laws serve a useful function, at least for now.

And that's really where my concerns lie. The temporal functionality of interpretive law is basically how the totalitarian culture of Eastern communism (especially Nazism) was born. Relying on judges to interpret laws is one thing, since that leaves the authority with a democratically amendable legal system, but asking judges to base verdicts on the moralistic intent of the law is too much.
It's not that I think these laws will herald in a Fourth Reich or anything (especially since the LGBT community is in the minority), but you do want to be careful when gauging public opinion against legal action, simply to avoid the mistakes that they made in Germany and Russia. Especially in a nation which is so strongly divided on the issue, it is a good idea for lawmakers not to make any rash decisions.

So, same-sex households/families aren't families?

Not by Disney's standards.

This is also an issue for any non-traditional family, including the single parent. Single parents aren't as polarising, but they are discriminated against. I mean, part of the complaint against homosexual pairings is that kids need a mother AND a father, something single-parent households also lack.

It's garbage, but it's the line of thought.

Of course that line of reasoning negates the fact that a single parent has to do all the work alone. Traditionally speaking, "bringing home the bacon" and caring for the children has been spread between two people, so obviously a second parent takes a lot of the workload off the first parent, whether they're of the same gender or not. We'll leave by the wayside for now the debate in psychology about maternal bonding.

 

[Ukomba]

Fine, but of SWTOR's issues, is this really the one that most needs attention right now? Not that I think the free-to-play conversion and Hutt Cartel was a worth while expenditure of resources either.

 

[Fat Hippo]

Why can't bioware pull it off as well as Bethesda has done in the last few games... It's just, there. It's not trumpeted, it's not pushed, it's not a binary GAY or NAY at some point in building character relationships... in both new vegas, and to a slightly lesser extent, skyrim, it's just there. There are some characters, well written, great characters. They happen to be l/g/b- you only really find this out if you learn enough about them as a person, talk to them, find out about their past, etc, like how it is for the most part in real life. Veronica and Arcade are probably two of the best written gay characters I've ever seen, especially the backstory with Veronica and Christine at the Brotherhood, and how that gets expanded upon when you meet that character in an expansion.

Bioware, seriously, take notes. Oh yeah, EA. That explains a lot.

I just felt I should point this out, since it's a commonly made mistake. Fallout: New Vegas was made by Obsidian Entertainment, and only published by Bethesda. Bethesda's writing has never been of even nearly that quality. Obsidian on the other hand, well...let's just say you should play some more of their games.

You are absolutely right though, that people should definitely be taking lessons from this game.

 

[TheCaptain]

I think the inclusion of (probably) half-baked same-gender-romances was kind of a panic reaction on Bioware's part. They promised something they weren't able to deliver, so they decided they had to throw people a bone like, right now.

I myself was hoping for full-on romance between my Bounty Hunter and her companion myself, because they were kinda cute together, but as I'm not gay myself I suppose the issue isn't quite as urgent for me as it might be for people with a more personal stake in this.

Anyway, I'm happy the game still exists at all, so I'll keep playing and waiting for the real deal. From the past year I've learned that while Bioware in their current state are prone to screwing things up now and then, they at least try to come through for their community.

 

[medv4380]

I don't play the game so I'm confused on the context of Relationship.

Is a Relationship between two players or between a player and an NPC?

Initially when I heard of this I thought "Whats so hard about letting two people have a 'Relationship' in game that Gender would be coded for?", but now this sounds like an NPC thing.

 

[yunabomb]

Who would consider Disney "family friendly" if they had family members who were gay?

Family-friendly is like family values. Just PC language to hide homophobia.

 

[Serrenitei]

Oh man, this one is loaded. I think Bioware did 1 of 2 things. Either, 1) slammed it in quickly to try and keep a promise (understandable), or 2) were pigeon-holed into this small offering by some larger influence, and put it in knowing there'd be backlash. See, I work in a comparable industry where we are forced into decisions that we know won't work, but people above us tell us we have to do anyway. It's frustrating as hell, let me tell you. Bioware isn't a stupid developer, I'm betting that they were pushing for the inclusion, and this was their consolation prize they *had* put in, because that's all they were allowed to do from the higher-ups.

I'm gonna go ahead and say I think BioWare knew this was going to blow up like it did, they just didn't have a choice in how it was implemented.

 

[Fearzone]

In Skyrim, a character could marry an NPC regardless of gender. If there was any controversy about it, it was insubstantial and I never heard about it.

Why is it never like this with Bioware games?

 

[Mr F.]

#1reasonwhy you don't give in to outside pressure from "interest groups" to include things in your work, be it religious groups, feminists or LGWhatever.
They finally got what they asked for after years of begging, which was probably not very easy since LucasArts likely had to agree and now they're bitching and crying their eyes out that it "isn't what they expected" or "isn't enough". If anyone talks about "entitlement" in gaming again, point them to this, because if this isn't it I don't know what is.

Especially if it comes from a negligible portion of your customerbase: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/ and you can be sure to piss off another part at the same time.

Oh god, I am getting involved in this.

One: One of the great problems with democracy is that it gives in to the tyranny of the majority. Just because LGBTQ customers are not the majority does not mean they should be ignored, just because they are a minority does not make them a NEGLIGIBLE amount of people.

Two: Asking to be equally represented is not entitlement. Any more then asking for protection in the eyes of the law. Christ, I wish I could report you (I found your post offensive yet I don't think the mods would necessarily agree with me).

I need to step out because this thread WILL inevitably become even more offensive as people like you flock to it.

I just do not understand why some people find integration hard to understand, why some people want to be treated as equals and not as aberrations. Fucking hell, It would not have taken that much to integrate LGBTQ relationships from the start (Get a few of the lines done twice by some of the characters, one referring to a male partner and the other to a female partner. Done, you now have some bisexual characters and nobody is offended). Instead the LGBTQ community is always thought of as an afterthought.

The problem is that companies and society as a whole treat us like afterthoughts.

And people like you don't give enough of a shit.

It's not my fight because I am queer. Its not someone else's fight cause she is a lesbian, or someone else cause they are Trans. Its all of our fight because we are all human and this shit is offensive to anyone with an ounce of decency and sense.

Fuck the tyranny of the majority.

And before someone says "It doesn't matter how gays are depicted in games" it does. It fucking does. Because if the LGBTQ community is treated like every other community in games and popular media eventually the idea of someone being LGBTQ will be normalised. We will be people again. And not "Others".

 

[Brainwreck]

After Kotor 2, I honestly doubt 'family friendly' is an apt description of anything Star Wars.
Nevermind all the genocide and the ewok cannibalism and whatnot.

 

[maxben]

#1reasonwhy you don't give in to outside pressure from "interest groups" to include things in your work, be it religious groups, feminists or LGWhatever.
They finally got what they asked for after years of begging, which was probably not very easy since LucasArts likely had to agree and now they're bitching and crying their eyes out that it "isn't what they expected" or "isn't enough". If anyone talks about "entitlement" in gaming again, point them to this, because if this isn't it I don't know what is.

Especially if it comes from a negligible portion of your customerbase: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/ and you can be sure to piss off another part at the same time.

Yeah no, I think I will still point people to the thing where a couple of months ago a bunch of neckbeards pressured Bioware into making a new ending for ME because the normal one upset their fee fees.

Oh wow, what a horrible survey.
1. Bisexuals are not even represented.
2. How about considering all those who have had a "homosexual experience" but do not self identify as gay or lesbian?
3. Self identifying as gay in large parts of the US will get you killed or beaten or sent to brainwashing camp. This creates a LOT of closet cases who will not even admit what they are in an anonymous survey, and sometimes refuse to even admit it to themselves.
If the number is 2% in this survey, I certainly believe the 10% estimation

 

[stonemaskstoryteller]

oh dear...another article about LGBT. I'm too tired to argue in forum debates about who's in the right or wrong again x__x
but in short: I think the gay thing is more confusing for straight people...for us, we just get on with our lives, it's part of who we are. Yeah the "gay planet" thing in star wars is a little stupid and shallow but maybe in the future they won't treat us as a minority who needs pandering to, but just as ordinary humans like everyone else...or ordinary aliens, in the case of Star wars i guess? haha

 

[mikespoff]

Interesting article, but I have to question this statement:

"...civil unions inherently hold members of the LGBT community apart from the rest of the populace by creating a separate, and therefore unequal, category..."

I disagree that civil unions are inherently "unequal" just because they are separate from marriage. If they have the same legal standing, I think that it is a superior option than trying to re-define marriage.

It is useful to have a term for a faithful, monogomous life-long relationship between a man and a woman, which creates an environment in which to bear and raise children. That term is "marriage", and that relationship is recognised as having certain legal implications and protections.

If you want to have equivalent legal standing for a faithful, monogomous, homosexual relationship, that is a legitimate discussion within society. But to insist that such a relationship be brought under the term "marriage" only makes ambiguous a term which was previously clear and specific.

 

[Korskarn]

#1reasonwhy you don't give in to outside pressure from "interest groups" to include things in your work, be it religious groups, feminists or LGWhatever.
They finally got what they asked for after years of begging, which was probably not very easy since LucasArts likely had to agree and now they're bitching and crying their eyes out that it "isn't what they expected" or "isn't enough". If anyone talks about "entitlement" in gaming again, point them to this, because if this isn't it I don't know what is.

Especially if it comes from a negligible portion of your customerbase: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/ and you can be sure to piss off another part at the same time.

Yeah no, I think I will still point people to the thing where a couple of months ago a bunch of neckbeards pressured Bioware into making a new ending for ME because the normal one upset their fee fees.

Oh wow, what a horrible survey.
1. Bisexuals are not even represented.
2. How about considering all those who have had a "homosexual experience" but do not self identify as gay or lesbian?
3. Self identifying as gay in large parts of the US will get you killed or beaten or sent to brainwashing camp. This creates a LOT of closet cases who will not even admit what they are in an anonymous survey, and sometimes refuse to even admit it to themselves.
If the number is 2% in this survey, I certainly believe the 10% estimation

Congratulations for reading the wrong part of article, not even reading the figures (which would have told you that you were reading the wrong part), and then showing how little you read by posting about it. That part is asking people "What percentage do you think is gay?" - showing how misinformed they are. The part you ACTUALLY want to read is:

The Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, a gay and lesbian think tank, released a study in April 2011 estimating based on its research that just 1.7 percent of Americans between 18 and 44 identify as gay or lesbian, while another 1.8 percent -- predominantly women -- identify as bisexual. Far from underestimating the ranks of gay people because of homophobia, these figures included a substantial number of people who remained deeply closeted, such as a quarter of the bisexuals.

That covers your (1) bisexuals and (3) closets, and if you click through to the actual study itself you'll see it also covers (2) "homosexual experiences" (which the Atlantic article leaves out). To quote the abstract of the study:

Drawing on information from four recent national and two state-level population-based surveys, the analyses suggest that there are more than 8 million adults in the US who are lesbian, gay, or bisexual, comprising 3.5% of the adult population. There are also nearly 700,000 transgender individuals in the US. In total, the study suggests that approximately 9 million Americans ? roughly the population of New Jersey ? identify as LGBT. Key findings from the study include among adults who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, bisexuals comprise a slight majority (1.8% compared to 1.7% who identify as lesbian or gay); women are substantially more likely than men to identify as bisexual; estimates of those who report any lifetime same-sex sexual behavior and any same-sex sexual attraction are substantially higher than estimates of those who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual. An estimated 19 million Americans (8.2%) report that they have engaged in same-sex sexual behavior and nearly 25.6 million Americans (11%) acknowledge at least some same-sex sexual attraction.

Yes, the 11% who acknowledge same-sex attraction is pretty much bang on with the 10% number you cite, but if you're including ladies who joke they'd "go gay for Angelina Jolie" in the LGBT community, then I suspect you might be padding your numbers a leeeetle too much.

 

[Dascylus]

Gay people scare me...
Nah not really, but I was raised in a pretty uptight family. Dad was military and such so you can imagine the cliche attitude in the house. Gays are wrong and immigrants should go home but Raj (or whatever he was called) who runs the corner shop is ok cos he works for a living and we'll not say a word about allegations that dads friend on the town council cross-dresses when his wifes away.

I enjoy movies and tv, I like performing in theatre and playing roleplaying and video games. I have never really enjoyed football, have no idea how an engine works.

Moving away and becoming my own person was amazing. Attitudes and interests that were discouraged at home I was now free to pursue them.

I am not gay, have never been and have no interest in exploring it out. If my gay friends are being a bit too fabulous I can feel a bit uncomfortable but there is a reason they are my friends and I know when they are just screwing with me.
Same goes for when I'm on the subway and there are a group of individuals being boistrous with each other and talking in their native language.

So that's me...

My opinion does not make others wrong. I can understand if it is difficult to accept others but that does not give anybody the right to take their options away.
I am for homosexual relationships in games and out. And much like real life, if I don't want a homosexual relationship I should choose the relevant conversation options for my desire.

 

[Simca]

Minor nitpick but LGB is more correct than LGBT in this context as transgender is not relevant in the sense of the game (no trans characters). Transgender is typically grouped with LGBT for legal reasons (they share some legal goals) and because being transgender can modify sexuality (i.e. a trans-man could have always liked men and it would have been straight when he was female but now is gay), but neither happens to apply in this case.