Why the Indoctrination Theory is WRONG!!!

[Moth_Monk]

SPOILER WARNING IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED MASS EFFECT 3 DO NOT READ FURTHER

Okay, most people in the gaming community will have probably heard about how bad the ending to Mass Effect 3 is supposed to be and also about the 'Indoctrination Theory' which some Bioware fans have come up with to escape (ba-dum tss) the 'horrible' ending.

However the Indoctrination Theory CAN NOT be correct, here's why:

On the mission on Thessia, Shepard and his squad speak to a Prothean VI. Later on, when The Illusive Man's assassin interrupts and the Illusive Man speaks to Shepard via the holographic link, the Prothean VI says that a "indoctrinated presence has been detected" and so it deactivates - this is because the Illusive Man and co. are indoctrinated.

SO...

If Shepard is/was/had been indoctrinated then the Prothean VI would not have even spoken to Shepard.

Critical Mission Failure: Indoctrination Theory



Please people, repost this around, we wouldn't want the Bioware writers forced into going along with the Indoctrination theory and introduce another plot hole.

Watch the scene here, for clarification: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqb5h82fSRs&t=26m0s

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Unless you know, Shepard isn't indoctrinated for as long as his actions are still his own, which is until the last 10 minutes in the game according to the theory. Undergoing indoctrination and being indoctrinated are different things.

 

[Euhan01]

And there's no chance that Shepard indoctrination was after? Say at the point when he was speaking to the Catalysis and decide to try and control the Reapers like everybody else who was being indoctrinated (if that's what you chose.) Personally I find this whole uproar over the ending rather sad the ending was ok (not great, not awful), although then again I chose to destroy the Reapers with a high Galaxy rating and everything went well.

 

[rob_simple]

Oh good, another one of these threads. This is exactly what we need.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

I'll copypaste something I posted from another IT thread

Indoctrination theory is false for one simple reason. (Just for the record I haven't played Jade Empire or NWN) Bioware doesn't do subtlety. They do morally grey, but they don't do subtle. FFS, the good guys in DA:O are called Grey Wardens, in a game all about ambiguous choices. The only time they have done anything subtle was KOTOR, and they fully explained the twist afterwards. Indoctrination assumes an unprecedented level of subtlety.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

Unless you know, Shepard isn't indoctrinated for as long as his actions are still his own, which is until the last 10 minutes in the game according to the theory. Undergoing indoctrination and being indoctrinated are different things.

Aaaaaand owned.

Seriously, no one advocating the indoctrination theory has suggested that Shepard was indoctrinated prior to the run-in with Harbinger in London. At least, not fully indoctrinated. Maybe it was starting in on him, but not done yet.

But I don't support the Indoctrination theory. I think all of Mass Effect is just the Prothean Beacon from Eden Prime in Mass Effect one causing Shepard to have a 120 hour long dream sequence. Because that's how I roll.

 

[Vegosiux]

When I read the title I immediately thought of this:


I mean, it's a cute guess, isn't it, and convenient? But as was said, BW and subtlety aren't exactly tho things you use in the same sentence unless it's a sentence about two things you don't exactly use together.

Plus, if the indoctrination thing was planned as such, the last game of the trilogy is the worst possible place to put it. You can't end a trilogy on a "...but IS it?" note. You can hang us off a cliff in the first and second game, but the last one should wrap things up.

 

[Moth_Monk]

It's nonsense to say that Shepard was indoctrinated at some point after the attack on Illusive Man's HQ. I thought that the 'evidence' for the theory was that Shepard had been around Reaper technology, dreamed about little kids where the bushes were a specific type e.t.c
Are we supposed to accept that Commander Shepard was indoctrinated within the final minutes of
the game? Indoctrination is supposed to take a long time.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

Sure, but she wasn't fully indoctrinated according to the theory until the end, up until that point she was still in control of her own actions.

 

[soren7550]

People who support the theory have addressed the VI detecting signs of indoctrination. At that point, Shepard's level of indoctrination is minor, but TIM's and Leng's is far greater. Plus, there's the chance that the VI can only detect the higher levels of indoctrination and not the lesser ones. Shepard's actions and thoughts are still Shepard's alone. TIM's and Leng's aren't.

 

[Moth_Monk]

That sounds like Wild Mass Guessing to me. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WildMassGuessing)

I think that if the writers wanted it to be a possibility they wouldn't leave fans to fill in perceived 'blanks' in the story. Going from the facts in game Shepard would not be indoctrinated.

 

[Dendio]

The protheans were not able to detect lower levels of indoctrination. Javik says as much when he reveals how they were destroyed from within by sleeper agents. Shepard is not fully indoctrinated until he commits to control or synthesis

 

[Catfood220]

It's nonsense to say that Shepard was indoctrinated at some point after the attack on Illusive Man's HQ. I thought that the 'evidence' for the theory was that Shepard had been around Reaper technology, dreamed about little kids where the bushes were a specific type e.t.c
Are we supposed to accept that Commander Shepard was indoctrinated within the final minutes of
the game? Indoctrination is supposed to take a long time.

Indoctrination can be done very quickly but turns the subject into a gibbering wreck faster than if it were done slowly.

 

[Moth_Monk]

So what you're saying is this:

Shepard gets indoctrinated and is so left a gibbering animal...Basically if IDT is right then the game ends with the Reapers winning.

Nice.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So what you're saying is this:

Shepard gets indoctrinated and is so left a gibbering animal...Basically if IDT is right then the game ends with the Reapers winning.

Nice.

Pfft. Clearly you just wanted a happy sunshine ending.

Really though, they originally planned to have a sequence where Shepard has to fight indoctrination. It was cut at the last minute due to game play issues. It's all in that goofy "Last Hours" thing. So all those clues pointing at indoctrination are actually real clues. They just didn't follow through, instead opting to go with the much more popular "Space Magic" ending.

 

[GloatingSwine]

You could just simplify it to "Bioware really aren't that smart".

 

[Daystar Clarion]

IF I WRITE CERTAIN WORDS IN CAPITALS, IT SOMEHOW MAKES MY POINT MORE RELEVANT, THEREFORE, ALL CAPITALS = ALL RELEVANCE.


LIKE OTHERS HAVE SAID, UNDERGOING INDOCTRINATION AND ACTUALLY BEING INDOCTRINATED ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.


HAVE I MADE MY POINT YET? I WANT TO STOP WRITING LIKE THIS.

[sub]Subtle enough?[/sub]

But seriously people, we've all decided that the indoctrination theory is true, mostly because it acts as a brilliant shield between us and the shitty ending we actually got.

Stop trying to ruin the illusion.

 

[Nieroshai]

IF I WRITE CERTAIN WORDS IN CAPITALS, IT SOMEHOW MAKES MY POINT MORE RELEVANT, THEREFORE, ALL CAPITALS = ALL RELEVANCE.


LIKE OTHERS HAVE SAID, UNDERGOING INDOCTRINATION AND ACTUALLY BEING INDOCTRINATED ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.


HAVE I MADE MY POINT YET? I WANT TO STOP WRITING LIKE THIS.

[sub]Subtle enough?[/sub]

But seriously people, we've all decided that the indoctrination theory is true, mostly because it acts as a brilliant shield between us and the shitty ending we actually got.

Stop trying to ruin the illusion.

Alright, as long as you continue to admit that it's an illusion and you willingly believe it.

My point is, there are many who want to believe the indoctrination theory. That does not make it so. A bad ending is a bad ending, cut material is cut material. An entire 3 games disappeared mysteriously from the Xenosaga series, and I still want to choke Namco for rushing it out and half-assing the conclusion. The point is, would people be crying out if the ending to Halo sucked?

 

[Goofguy]

You can't really disprove such a theory with a somewhat flimsy counter-point.

You're kind of missing the point of the indoctrination theory, which Daystar Clarion put so succinctly. It's not that this theory provides a satisfactory ending to the series, it's that it's really just a means to explain and essentially accept the gaping plot holes and inconsistencies.