Why the Marvel Movies Should Ditch Peter Parker

Vault Citizen

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Personally I hope that Peter Parker sticks around for a good few years before they switch to Milo. If they are going to switch to Milo I hope it is only after the new version of Peter Parker has 2-3 of his own movies and 2-3 appearances in other Marvel movies. I also think that it would be good to introduce Milo before him becoming Spiderman so that he and Parker can interact a bit before Peter is killed off, maybe have Peter mentor his character a bit. If you had that character relationship as a sub plot through the second and third new Spiderman movies Milo would be better placed to take up the mantle of Spiderman.
 

Spaceman Spiff

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I'd really like to see Miles (if there absolutely has to be a Spider-man in the MCU, which I still don't think it needs) just because Peter Parker has been done to death. No sense in wasting MCU screen time rehashing the same stuff we've already seen twice in the last 15 years.
 

Kameburger

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Kahani said:
StewShearer said:
Miles Morales, comparatively, is a character that moviegoers haven't seen before. While comic book readers are familiar with him, wider audiences might not even know he exists.
The thing is, this isn't really any different from Peter Parker. Wider audiences know Spiderman, his alter-ego is much less well known. Clarke Kent and Bruce Wayne are famous, Peter Parker is just some kid who could easily be replaced by someone else without most people even noticing, let alone actually caring.

Nods Respectfully Towards You said:
Now as an ancillary character? Sure, he works fine I suppose.
Kameburger said:
I think in that way it makes Miles simultaneously an interesting character but not a very individual character till later in his story.
Bear in mind he's being introduced as a secondary character in a big cross-over film in a well-established franchise. An ancillary character who doesn't do much individually until later in the story once he gets his own film is exactly what he's going to be.
Well to both your points even though only the second one is directed at me.

In many ways Peter Parker had one of the widely recognized alter egos in comics, maybe not quite as big as Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent but he's certainly a close third. Hell he's one of the few superheroes who's reason to hold his secret identity so close is actually common knowledge. He was probably one of the earliest relatable alter egos as well, as prior to him super Heroes were larger than life people on their own in one way or another. My case and point on this one might very well be Fox News actually. Fox News never cared about any other comic book characters diversity retcon or change out. Hell even captain America got no mention, but Peter Parker on the other hand was cause enough for Fox News, who's veiwership certainly isn't your average comic enthusiast still went apeshit over Spider-Man's passing of the mantel all be it for the wrong and despicable reasons but still.

And the point addressed to me, it's difficult to say honestly what role he'll play but knowing both civil wars storyline and morales' origin, it's really easy to see how Parker will pass on the mantle, but really difficult to see how they can bring morales in without completely re-writing the character. And why re-write him? I thought his origin was cool. I get the "it's been done" angle, but it hasn't been done by marvel. And that's something I'd want to see.
 

XDSkyFreak

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Could we just get anice character? You know, a well written interesting to watch compeling one? I don't give a single fuck about what race he is, what gender, what name he has (though I will say this to you comic fans: putting someone name anything else than Peter Parker will only make the audience that actually earns marvel money scratch their heads and boo. I tried raising this subject to my non-comic reading friends and their reactions have been "Dude, Parker is Spider-man, I don't give a shit about Miles whatever the hell" ... allthough they were open to a spider-girl), how nerdy or cool he is doesn't matter to me. What matters is that I get a character that I can identify with and understand and whose strugles are compelling to watch. So instead of all this pointless sjw, my character is better than your character bla bla, let's recall that these are not the point. The point is: we want a good spiderman movie with an awesome main character. As long as that happens he can a klendathu alien bug queen for all I care.

And just a side-note: these movies are works that take certain elements from comic books and adapt them to the big screen. Keyword beeing ADAPT, not TRANSPLANT.

captcha: easy as cake - no shit ... common sense can work wonders sometimes.
 

Redd the Sock

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Jake Martinez said:
Silverspetz said:
Just because there is a market for minority characters doesn't mean that they are given the same chance as other characters. Simply making new characters to represent minorities rarely works because while many people would like to see more representation, few people are willing to take a risk by buying new and untested books. And if the readers are unwilling to risk their Money on an untested character with no history, then the Publishers that ultimatelyy have to sign on for this risk Before the readers even get a chance to support it are even worse. Comics are an expensive hobby you know. Hence why new minority characters are generally legacy heroes or related to other characters so that they can borrow some brand recognition while they get started.
Sorry, but this is a bullshit argument. Marvel alone has put out something like 3 or 4 books with female characters head-lining them in the last year alone. If they didn't want to print a full book, then they could do what they do with every other new character - try them out in an existing book and see if fan reaction is good enough to run to print.

The only reason why they gender/race swap existing characters is because every time they do this they are (for now) guaranteed to get free publicity from the press that loves to run stories like this because it always causes thread exactly like this one.

All the fans and readers are basically being played.
Moreover it's the only way to keep sales high. Female Thor sells well. Spider-Women did well. Books without mass internet controversy hype: She Hulk = canceled. Elektra: Canceled. Black Widow = sells like shit. Ms. Marvel, sells better but pretty crappy. Storm, dropped like a rock from middle range sales. Hell, if half they hype over Miles online hit the comic USM would be back selling at #1.

People seem to love diversity, but only so long as it's big, in your face and hyped to the wazoo.
 

shadowmagus

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I've been saying it since we got the word about Spider-man. I mean, honestly, we are already using a number of "Ultimate" versions of characters (Nick Fury being the most notable), so why not just keep the train rolling?
 

happyninja42

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I'm totally cool with this, mostly because I've always found "legacy" stories really fun. Of having the name Spider-Man becoming more of a mantle of power, that get's passed on from generation to generation. Giving it more of a mythical nature. Of course this also assumes there is time passing in a generational manner, which Marvel tends to avoid if possible for continuity reasons. Still, I wouldn't care if it was Peter or Miles, as long as he's done well and it fits the story.

Redd the Sock said:
Moreover it's the only way to keep sales high. Female Thor sells well. Spider-Women did well. Books without mass internet controversy hype: She Hulk = canceled. Elektra: Canceled. Black Widow = sells like shit. Ms. Marvel, sells better but pretty crappy. Storm, dropped like a rock from middle range sales. Hell, if half they hype over Miles online hit the comic USM would be back selling at #1.

People seem to love diversity, but only so long as it's big, in your face and hyped to the wazoo.
Eh, I dunno, I don't think it's so much because it's "in your face" as it's something new. I fully admit I started reading Female Thor simply because I wanted to see what they're doing with it. However, after having read it, I'm probably not going to stick with it for much longer. The level of mysogynistic obstruction from every character with a penis in the story is sort of overwhelming. I mean I get it from a certain percentage of characters, but the amount of it in just the 4 issues I've read is kind of comical. Yes, it is easy publicity, and generates interest, but this is hardly a thing that is only seen in the politically correct venue. Every time a comic series drums up something "earth shaking" it's to try and revitalize sales. The death of superman, the back breaking of batman, you name it. It's all publicity, it's nothing new, or unique to this type of diversity story.

So I don't really have a problem with them trying out new stories, as long as they are good stories.
 

Coruptin

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Black Peter Parker and white Miles Morales or GTFO. The simultaneous nerd rage and social activist whining will fuel my sadism and sustain my physical form for at least a couple more decades.


I don't care about the race of the character. Peter Parker is Peter Parker no matter what MCU decides he looks like. It just better be Peter and not Miles in the forefront; at least, not for a little while.
 

faefrost

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elvor0 said:
Robot-Jesus said:
Miles would be a marketing frailer. Parker has brand recognition and enough people know him that the average person would be put off by spider-man being a different character. Always remember, the target market is always people who have never read a comic book. With every other character the movie is the first time the audience has seen this person, this gives the studio a lot of latitude with how they portray the character; this is not the case for Spider-man

faefrost said:
Simply race swapping Peter Parker to be a black kid actually works far far better for the vast majority of your desired audience than Miles Morales.
Yeah....but why? Why change his race at all? Marvel has characters from different ethnicities they can use. How are they every supposed to become popular if people never argue for marvel to use them? "Well we could use this character who's already black and we kind of want to push....or oh fuck it, just give Peter Parker a lick of paint".
Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.

As an example compare Spider-Man to another oft debated race swapped character. Johnny Storm in the new FF movie. This is a brain dead move on the producers part. Simply because the original character is very much a racial stereotype to begin with. The Human Torch is a "dude bro". He is that white middle class frat boy type that we all know and have a love hate relationship with. He is in fact a racial caricature. Just one we don't talk about or take much offense at. But swapping his race causes some character issues. No matter how good the actor is. That "dude bro" starts to be perceived as something else. You quickly get to the point where in order to bring the race swapped character to the screen in a way that doesn't feel like a Comedy Central sketch you have to change the character to the point where it is unrecognizable from its original form.

It gets subtle. Some characters race swap more easily then others, provided they are not restricted by being pop culture icons. So just don't change well. Just like Captain America does not race swap well. He is by definition a time lost 1940's whitest white guy in the room. Whereas Iron Man is pretty much a non issue.

Spider-man falls into that same category as Batman. There is nothing in the story specific to race, and nothing about them that caricatures race, but they are so familiar to the general public that to go against public expectations is marketing suicide and cheapens your production. The money is made giving the audience the most genuine experience of the character they are looking for.
 

HardkorSB

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Hdawger said:
Yeah... no. How about instead we have Spider Girl and stop pretending that race is the most important factor in choosing a superhero. The political correctness in this article is off the charts.
Won't happen.
Spider-Man is a brand name and just like Batgirl is no Batman, Spider-Girl is no Spider-Man.

Personally, I think that they'll go with a Caucasian Peter Parker.
Both Maguire's and Garfield's performances, while decent, weren't all that accurate.
I think Marvel is going to try and do it right.
 

happyninja42

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faefrost said:
Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.
Interesting that you say that, since the recognizable part of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man equation is the costumed suit aspect, not the "standard issue white guy". If you just put a typical white guy in a photo, and ask people who he is, nobody would guess it's Peter Parker. But show them the outfit, and it's instant recognition. Which is why I agree that he is very easily swappable, because the iconic aspect of him, has no race/gender/social class tied into it. I don't think it would be much of an issue to have him swapped out really, from a marketing viewpoint, as most of the merchandise (if not all of it), will be the costumed persona anyway. So yeah, swap him out with a different guy/girl all you want. As long as he's the web-slinging friendly neighborhood Spider, defending New York, I think it will be fine.
 

vid87

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I imagine it would be difficult in terms of roster packing, but if I were allowed to be an idealist:

 

Bindal

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Happyninja42 said:
faefrost said:
Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.
Interesting that you say that, since the recognizable part of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man equation is the costumed suit aspect, not the "standard issue white guy". If you just put a typical white guy in a photo, and ask people who he is, nobody would guess it's Peter Parker. But show them the outfit, and it's instant recognition. Which is why I agree that he is very easily swappable, because the iconic aspect of him, has no race/gender/social class tied into it. I don't think it would be much of an issue to have him swapped out really, from a marketing viewpoint, as most of the merchandise (if not all of it), will be the costumed persona anyway. So yeah, swap him out with a different guy/girl all you want. As long as he's the web-slinging friendly neighborhood Spider, defending New York, I think it will be fine.
That argument works for EVERY civilian identity of every superhero, ever. Which makes it pointless.
 

happyninja42

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Bindal said:
Happyninja42 said:
faefrost said:
Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.
Interesting that you say that, since the recognizable part of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man equation is the costumed suit aspect, not the "standard issue white guy". If you just put a typical white guy in a photo, and ask people who he is, nobody would guess it's Peter Parker. But show them the outfit, and it's instant recognition. Which is why I agree that he is very easily swappable, because the iconic aspect of him, has no race/gender/social class tied into it. I don't think it would be much of an issue to have him swapped out really, from a marketing viewpoint, as most of the merchandise (if not all of it), will be the costumed persona anyway. So yeah, swap him out with a different guy/girl all you want. As long as he's the web-slinging friendly neighborhood Spider, defending New York, I think it will be fine.
That argument works for EVERY civilian identity of every superhero, ever. Which makes it pointless.
I disagree, since the entire subject of this thread, is swapping out the race of the superhero in question, and how that would impact the character. The comment I was replying to specifically was about marketability of the new version. And the fact, that there aren't many Peter Parker action figures, but a metric ton of Spiderman action figures, suggests that the iconic aspect has nothing to do with Peter Parker. The companies that make the money off him aren't making that money because he's Peter Parker, they're making it because he's Spiderman. And if the hero, is still doing the same stuff, but under the suit, is a different guy, I doubt it will impact sales of the toys. Spiderman is a blank canvas, neutral in appearance enough, that literally any kid could fantasize about being under the suit, and outwardly still look like Spiderman. What he looks like underneath means nothing to the toy sales. So yes, my argument does have a point thank you.
 
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Wow, great. A whole post about race, again. More social justice crusading. Maybe heroes and movie characters shouldn't be judged by their race, but by their deeds and character. Haven't we moved past this nonsense yet? It's suggested to be good purely because of race and diversity, with "something new" as an afterthought. Rubbish.

OT: I didn't even know there was a different person who was also Spiderman. Saying that, since I know nothing about him I doubt I would go to see a movie for £10+ about a character I didn't know a thing about. Clark Kent is Superman, Bruce Wayne is Batman, Peter Parker is Spiderman, or conversely, Spiderman, at least the one we non-readers know, is Peter Parker.

Spiderman II is still one of, if not the best comic book hero movie in the last decade, if not ever (Superman 2 was incredible too). He doesn't need constant reinvention, rebooting, remaking and retelling. They would be better served just making a good Spiderman movie than constantly reinventing him, even with an all new cast.

I'm not against "something new", but the new should come from a new story, new characters or new heroes entirely. I don't think they needed a new reboot with Garfield, I think Man of Steel was pointless (and rubbish) and even Batman Begins was an unnecessary origin story (tho it did happen to be a good film and ended up as a seperate trilogy entirely). Heck, before Nolan's reboot, we had three Batmans (Batmen?) in one continuity and I thought it was much better. (Routh also took over from Reeves in Superman Returns and the whole "Returns" thing itself was specifically made for continuity).

I'm done with reboots and origin stories (except for Gambit 2016. I'll be living in the cinema until they physically remove me when that one comes out!).
 

medv4380

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Miles back story is different then Peters?

Peter Guilted by the Death of Uncle Ben because he should have stopped a guy that probably would have killed him had he actually tried. Peter's not bullet proof and too green to have not gotten shot.

Miles Guilted by the Death of Peter Parker because he did nothing to stop the Green Goblin from killing him but would have killed him too had he actually tried. Miles was not experienced enough to join the fight.

Sounds like the same back story with tweeks to the characters involved.
 

Ukomba

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Lilani said:
Hdawger said:
Yeah... no. How about instead we have Spider Girl and stop pretending that race is the most important factor in choosing a superhero. The political correctness in this article is off the charts.
...Which means gender is the most important factor in choosing a superhero, then?

I really don't get this "Race doesn't matter, leave him white" logic. If you truly think race doesn't matter, then you shouldn't give two fucks either way. If you think he should stay white, race obviously does matter in some way. White is still a race as much as black is, it's not a template for a default human.

As for my own opinion, I'm kind of a comic book outsider looking into the world through movies, and I would love to see Spider-Man cast in a different light. I'm tired of Peter Parker. I don't want to see his story play out a third time on screen, because God knows Marvel isn't going to let their Spider Man come from the universe Sony's been working on. I know his story, it's practically its own trope now. No parents, Uncle Ben gets killed, boo hoo, gotta keep the secret from Aunt May, gotta bang the blonde or the redhead. Give me something new, Marvel.
I'd like to point out that Hdawger didn't express that Spider Girl should be chosen because of her gender, just that she would be a better choice. Then came the objection to the authors objectification of Miles based on the marketability of his skin tone. You injected the gender politics.