Will DRM Finally Beat Piracy? Notorious Cracking Forum Says Yes

Tiamat666

Level 80 Legendary Postlord
Dec 4, 2007
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In the age of Steam sales and indie games, great games to play for little money are so ubiquitous, I'm surprised anybody even takes the risk to pirate games anymore. Seems stupid to me to risk getting malware on your computer when you have so many options these days.
 

Level 7 Dragon

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Mar 29, 2011
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Steven Bogos said:
FirstNameLastName said:
In other news, the crossbow has just been invented. That's it people, pack up your stuff and go home. The arms-race is now over, nothing will ever trump it. History ends today.
I know this is a joke, but the invention of the crossbow basically completely changed the way wars were fought. All of a sudden people with very minimal training could be effective in battle against even hardened veterans. Nothing, not even the gun, changed war as much as crossbows did.
Not to derail the conversation, but crossbows had to go a long way to replace archers, as it usually took about a minute to reload a single one, while a skilled huntsman was and still is capable of firing multiple shots in quick sucsession. Just look at archery championships. Crossbows did replace long bows fairly quickly, as the point of such a weapon is distance and power and not fast reloading. Just came back from seeing the Reverant and it seems that early rifles shared the same problem - you had to reload after every shot and it took a while, which is one of the reasons why bows were still quite devastating in close standoffs.

Back on the topic of DRM. When I was 13 I got a copy of Assassin's Creed 2 for cristmas, but since I lived in a rural area at the time, internet kept cutting off, as a result, I wasn't able to play the game due to Unisoft's archaic always-on DRM. Generally, copy protection is a good thing, as long as it does not interfere with us actually playing.
 

Karadalis

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Apr 26, 2011
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Smooth Operator said:
The only DRM that truly works is sadly "always online", but going there would make absolutely everyone suffer, well everyone who ever cared about games.
Diablo 3 and sim city riiiiiiight? Sorry to say but "allways online" seemed to be piss easy to avoid last it came up.

No DRM is unhackable... no security measure unbeatable. All it takes is time and motivation... something that hacker groups have plenty off ESPECIALY if something is hard to crack.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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thewatergamer said:
Isn't Denuvo infamous for hurting performance
There was one developer who claimed that. And it was the guys who did Lords of the Fallen. That game is also pretty infamous for not being that well technically. The devs just tried to shift the blame onto the DRM. So, no, that's not really the case.

thewatergamer said:
and is even an alleged cause of hard-drive damage?
Yeah, that "alleged cause" was a completely random nobody posting completely bullshit data, which should have completely failed to impress anybody. Yet thousands of people decided to not look past the headline and started parroting it incessantly. That's the "alleged cause". Potip: try to read past a headline. I've lost the number of times I've had to explain this same thing to people who seem to not be able to do that.

WarpedLord said:
Smilomaniac said:
To boost sales, all they'd have to do was add a splash screen that said "If you enjoyed this game, please consider purchasing it" and people would be more inclined to do so.
You can't possibly believe that to be true... you seriously think pirates will pay for a game as long as developers... ask nicely?!?

Thanks for the hardest laugh I'm likely to have all month.
You...erm, you do know that this exact message is present A LOT of pirate releases, right? Sometimes it's literally word for word, other times it's paraphrased to something like "If you've enjoyed this game, please support the developers".

At any rate, every big name in the scene puts that in their release NFOs. Most others who want to be part of the scene also do. Heck, it's literally harder to find releases which don't encourage people to kick some money in the developers' way. Assuming, that is, that we're talking the original NFO - sometimes on reuploading, that either gets excluded or changed and it may have the message omitted.

gigastar said:
Nooners said:
WarpedLord said:
Smilomaniac said:
To boost sales, all they'd have to do was add a splash screen that said "If you enjoyed this game, please consider purchasing it" and people would be more inclined to do so.
You can't possibly believe that to be true... you seriously think pirates will pay for a game as long as developers... ask nicely?!?

Thanks for the hardest laugh I'm likely to have all month.
I think that's basically CD Projekt Red's mindset, though. Poland has one of the highest piracy rates in the world, so CDPR just said, "Well, let's just give up on DRM and ask nicely for people not to pirate."

...from what I last heard, they're doing okay for themselves.
While not understating the success of Witcher 3, did it not occur to you that CD Projeckt running GoG might have something to do with thier continued well-being?
Yes, the service that from day 1 has always prided and advertised itself as being "DRM free", and it's indeed one of the top slogans they've always had for their history, could also have something to do with helping out CDPR.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Nov 20, 2009
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IceForce said:
Yeah, they said Assassin's Creed 2's always-online couldn't be cracked either.

Did you know they've built an unsinkable ship? Yep, it's called the Titanic.
Difference is it's not the ship maker claiming it's unsinkable, but rather the iceberg.

To be fair though, they're not saying this is uncrackable. They believe they can and will beat it. Just that they're getting harder and harder to break, to the point where they think it's beyond hope.

Whether this is true or not only time will tell. Maybe some exploit or new way of coming at it will be found, and the race is set back to zero. But it'll be interesting to see what happens.
 

direkiller

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Steven Bogos said:
FirstNameLastName said:
In other news, the crossbow has just been invented. That's it people, pack up your stuff and go home. The arms-race is now over, nothing will ever trump it. History ends today.
I know this is a joke, but the invention of the crossbow basically completely changed the way wars were fought. All of a sudden people with very minimal training could be effective in battle against even hardened veterans. Nothing, not even the gun, changed war as much as crossbows did.
That's kinda false.

The height of popularity for them was at a time when most were levied militia, who had to pay for there own gear. Crossbows were very expensive, your average farmer could not afford them. So they were mostly restricted to mercenaries or Noble's guards/servants he paid to equip.
As a result the people who used crossbows were very well trained and armed.
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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TsunamiWombat said:
Actual Scene Hackers deny this. This particular group is a gimped for profit group, and therefore the 'scene' is snorting and rolling its eyes at this assertion.
I have to agree. 3DM isn't the fastest or most thorough cracking group out there, a lot of their releases containing fine print that basically reads "Yeah, this is a 3DM release, but we used parts of SKIDROW or someone else's code because the Cracking Scene is totes a brotherhood of gentleman scoundrels."

Spoilers: it isn't. Scene groups tend to jealously guard their codebases and jump at one another's throats as soon as someone's half-baked effort triggers false positives.

JC3 will get cracked. If not now, then a lot later. Heck, EA's SimCity was almost ready for its offline-only pirate debut, before EA threw the towel in and released an Offline patch for the game.
 

littlebunnyfuufuu

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To everyone saying "Good, this will teach them." Or anything along this lines-
Not everyone who downloads a crack, has pirated the game.

I personally use cracks, because I dont believe in letting mommy know you want to play a game, and when I double click a game icon, I Expect it to launch that game. I also want to future proof myself for the day when you cant download the game (however unlikely that may be.)Its allready bad enough that I have to wait through 4+splash pages telling me who made the game.

But first and foremost, i use it for the tracking. Steam has No Business knowing how long I play a game, and what ido in that game. I just want to play and chill.

You may say "oh, but you are in the minority, who cares about track7ng?"
I point you to this article-
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/11/18/145-of-fallout-4-pc-players-still-havent-left-the-vault
14.5% of fallout 4 players havent left the vault on pc. Guess why steam cant tell why Some of them have left the vault? Sure some of them might have had the trophy unlock, but not all of them

And screw trophies anyways, I dont care. You dont need to tell me how to play a game. The only reason they exist is to track you, and make you feel attached to your account.

But then again, I know im different from most folk, specifically because I make a steam/uplay/origin account Per Game. Along with emails. Because by god, if I want to sell it, or let a friend play it I will.

Three days ago, I bought Champion return to arms for the Ps2 for an outrageous $25 (and thats a good price, it normally goes for $30+) I had no problems paying for it. That shows that if you make a good game, people will pay for it, no matter how long its been out. But if you make them jump through 8 million hoops, they change their mind.

And stopping cracks wont even stop piracy! All you have to is buy the game, make an account, download it, block the the game from going online with your firewall, and request a refund!

Note-I am not condoning or admitting to piracy of any kind. As "Cracks" are not owned or copyrighted, they cannot be "pirated".
 

Lunar Templar

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Sep 20, 2009
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right ....

I'll believe that if/when it actually happens. other wise these guys just come off as lazy to me, or maybe lacking in talent to do the job.
 

mrdude2010

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Antigonius said:
That's BS. Every one knows that the only true way to stop piracy is videogame streaming.

For those that don't know: Imagine yourself, that all game data of your bought game is on a centralised server. The server takes 90% of the hard work on itself and the player is just getting a pretty picture on his screen - much like Steam Link, actually, but works like modern MMO's

While this type of DRM is also not invincible, it's simply too hard to crack - you as a pirate literally will have to catch every single byte of server information and/or reverse engineer them by yourselves which is too long and costly. There's a reason why MMO's are notoriously "pirate proof".
Oh, and also - you can't play the game without being always online, but tough shit poor people - it's the inevitable future.
That's a fucking awful idea. Way too few people have the bandwidth, let alone the ping, to properly play a game like that. With modern MMOs, you still have pretty much the entire game on your hard drive. It's only your interactions with it that are being sent back and forth between the server.
 

Vigormortis

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Mortuorum said:
"I still believe that [just Cause 3] can be compromised. But according to current trends in the development of encryption technology, in two years time I'm afraid there will be no free games to play in the world."
And that's the problem, right there. There will be plenty of free games to play in two years, in five years and in 20 years. There just won't be as many pirated games. Calling it "free" is bullshit. Call it what it is - "stolen".

This? This, right here? This is a crucial distinction.

In the argument of piracy as either theft or 'copyright infringement', this distinction is often muddled. The fact is, when you pirate a game, you're not playing a free game, you're stealing information. You're free to argue about the consequence of that action, but let's not pretend that it isn't theft.
 

The_Great_Galendo

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Vigormortis said:
In the argument of piracy as either theft or 'copyright infringement', this distinction is often muddled. The fact is, when you pirate a game, you're not playing a free game, you're stealing information. You're free to argue about the consequence of that action, but let's not pretend that it isn't theft.
I mostly agree with what you're saying -- I wouldn't call a pirated game a "free" game anymore than I would call a shoplifted game a "free" game -- but people equating copyright infringement with theft always bothers me somewhat.

Theft is taking something from another person; they now no longer have access to what you stole. Copyright infringement is copying (illegally) something from another person, but they still have access to the original. There's a reason that we have distinctive names, distinctive laws, and distinctive punishments for these two crime, and it's because they're very different crimes with very different implications for the victim.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
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dochmbi said:
IceForce said:
Yeah, they said Assassin's Creed 2's always-online couldn't be cracked either.
Yup and it was cracked 6 weeks later, which for the time was really really slow, because games were available on day 1 cracked in those days.

This DRM on AC2 made a paying customer out of me,
See, the thing is, for some people the DRM is what put them OFF the game. Or even worse, put them off Ubisoft entirely.

Skip to about 5 minutes:


People like to say that piracy negatively impacts sales figures, and there's likely a small element of truth to that. But (intrusive) DRM also negatively affects sales figures too.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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IceForce said:
People like to say that piracy negatively impacts sales figures, and there's likely a small element of truth to that. But (intrusive) DRM also negatively affects sales figures too.
Yup. I'm far less likely to buy an Ubisoft game. Uplay is a huge turnoff for me and my wallet. And when other companies pull this, well, the result's the same.

I don't like it when I'm punished for doing something I don't do.
 

immortalfrieza

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Adam Jensen said:
Do you know why devs and publishers care about piracy?

Because they think it hurts their sales. So for an anti-piracy measure to be successful that needs to be true. And it really isn't. Denuvo apparently costs a lot of money. So why would companies bother with it if they notice that their sales don't justify the price of Denuvo? At that point they'd be losing even more money which would ironically make the anti-piracy measure cost more than actual piracy. Also, it was cracked once and it will be cracked again. Denuvo's method might be different, but it shares the same destiny as SecuROM. I do feel sorry for the people behind this tech though. They are obviously smart and they're trying to protect other people's work. But it just won't last.
Devs and publishers don't care about piracy and they know perfectly well it's never hurt their sales and never will, they just want something to point their finger at aside from themselves for their utter failure to make games worth playing and thus paying for while marketing and selling them effectively and at a decent price. If piracy didn't exist these people would find something, ANYTHING else they can to avoid admitting their incompetence. Anyone that tries to sell anything and fails to meet their expectations or even just wants more no matter the market does this sort of thing, things don't sell as much as they expect and want it to solely due to their own incompetence with either the product or their ability to sell it or both so they blame anything and everything aside from themselves simply to cover their rear ends. All developers and publishers know that things like DRM and always online and so forth don't work, never will, screws over legitimate customers, and just wastes money to make, but they do it in order to act like they are doing something about what they know is a nonexistent problem to shut up their shareholders and whoever else they have to answer to.

DRM will never prevent piracy, but putting up smokescreens and pretending they are doing something about them has always been the real point.
 

Lord Garnaat

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Wonderful! Though I sincerely doubt that pirating will ever completely go away, it's encouraging to hear that it's actually becoming increasingly difficult to do. Most likely this will just mean new attempts at cracking anti-piracy systems, but at least there is some progress to show for it. Piracy and the human filth that partake in it are both pet peeves of mine, so hopefully this makes life just a little bit more frustrating for them.
 

Veylon

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Mortuorum said:
"I still believe that [just Cause 3] can be compromised. But according to current trends in the development of encryption technology, in two years time I'm afraid there will be no free games to play in the world."
And that's the problem, right there. There will be plenty of free games to play in two years, in five years and in 20 years. There just won't be as many pirated games. Calling it "free" is bullshit. Call it what it is - "stolen".
While I have no love for DRM, I've always found the pirates to be absurdly whiny. The world abounds in free games of every genre. Kongregate and abandonware sites aren't going anywhere. Previously pirated or DRM-free games aren't going to become retroactively locked. Their cry of pain is that they won't get to play brand new AAA right away for free. First World problems, even in China.
 

Tsun Tzu

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Nobuoa Schniell said:
"While nothing is completely "uncrackable", and I'm sure Just Cause 3 will fall, if Denuvo can manage to keep games uncracked for several months following release, it will probably cause most crackers and pirates to lose interest. After all, those first months are where most sales are made."

This statement confuses me. It implies that the cracker's intention is to cause lost sales for the game. Which I don't believe is the case at all. As for people who pirate the game, they usually have no intention to buy it anyway. Granted, if a game's crack is delayed 2-3 months, that'll likely push people who were tentative about buying it to eventually give in and purchase. But for those who still never intended to, they'll likely be willing to wait those 2-3 months. Ultimately I think that's the best case scenario. 2-3 months is more than enough times to get the initial sales, and maybe even a steam sale to discourage pirates further.
Yup!

A whole host of people wait longer than that just for sales.

So I see no reason why folks wouldn't be willing to wait a bit. Plus, with all the entertainment available, you'd be hard pressed to find anybody out there who doesn't have some sort of backlog to tide them over at this point.

But, yeah, competitive pricing, a consumer-friendly approach, and quality titles are how you effectively "combat" a good chunk of piracy. You can't completely eliminate it though...that's a fool's errand and everybody knows it.
 

Lightspeaker

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Antigonius said:
mrdude2010 said:
That's a fucking awful idea. Way too few people have the bandwidth, let alone the ping, to properly play a game like that. With modern MMOs, you still have pretty much the entire game on your hard drive. It's only your interactions with it that are being sent back and forth between the server.
Well, I didn't say that it'll be done right tomorrow - in 5-10 years this model will be the future - the most perfect way to combat piracy.
And if you don't have a bandwidth for that - well, you won't play any games then, not my problem.

I think you missed the part where a LOT of people don't have the bandwidth for that. And, as I understand it, a lot of internet companies in America (where damn near every company basis their decisions on) still have data caps. And also the part where the game industry is a business.

Businesses exist to make money. They don't make money by taking decisions that cut out large portions of their target audience. Remember the XBOne launch? The always online thing there? Take all the problems of that and magnify it by...lets say a hundred-fold. Because now it'd no longer be merely a constant check-in but now it would be actively trying to constantly stream data down to your computer.

The people who would buy into such a system would be a relative minority. Because it would be literally unusable for a huge amount of people, and more wouldn't buy into such a system on general principle. It would be a disaster for any company that tried to do it.

As for your "5-10 years" argument. The XBOne was announced in May of 2013. Look at where the internet was then and look at where it is now, approaching three years later. And you think 5 years is a reasonable minimum time frame for such a development to become acceptable and the tech to be sufficiently stable worldwide?