Will Joe Biden Drop Out of the Presidential Race

Trunkage

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The exceptionally vile thing going on are the people who would rather see the country fail than Trump succeed.
Yeah, what you are doing here is making way too many assumption. Firstly, just because someone is anti-Trump, doesn't mean they want the country to fail. I've seen way to much of this nonsense on Fox pundits. They are anti-Trump because they think Trump is failing the country.

Secondly, just because you disagree with policies doesn't mean you are trying to destroy America

Third, just because Trump is the leader, doesn't make his failure lead to the countries failure. In fact, there have been quite a few instances of presidental failure leading to the betterment of America. Obama is case in point

Fourth, do you have any proof about people wanting to destroy their own country? Because here's what I hear: Trump did ______ to Americans and that's destroying America. I DO hear a lot of conservatives say, 'if you don't follow tradition, you'll ruin America.' It's basically Fox and Friends tag line

Fifth, exceptionally vile? Has any of these people's decision lead to someone's deaths? Because Trump's decisions have. Has any of their decisions lined their pockets or those of their buddies? Because Trump's decisions have. Has these comments lead to trade wars that negatively effect the economy? Because Trump's decisions have. Has these exceptionally vile thoughts lead to firings based upon them not agreeing with the president? Because Trump's decisions have. But sure, mean internet guy is way more vile. None of these 'exceptionally vile' people have done as much damage to America as Trump (or any president) has.

Lastly, at best, what you could say is that these people want to see TRUMP's version of America fail. His version isn't the ONLY version. There are plenty out there.

Edit: You dont think Reagan and Bush 1&2 were demgogues?
 

Agema

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Edit: You dont think Reagan and Bush 1&2 were demgogues?
No.

All politicians need to appeal to the people and claim to represent them; the issue is to what extent they crudely appeal to their prejudices and desires to whip them up. I don't think the term fairly applies to Reagan or the Bushes at all.
 

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Belief in the superiority or desirability of the status quo is a form of ideology. There will be times when the status quo is hopelessly broken, and yet a big chunk of conservatives still believe in it: that's not going to be "pragmatism".
Neither conservative nor liberal is an ideology. Maybe, if you slap an "ism" to them.
Both of them express the tendency of society to follow a well-proven solution or to aspire after newer ones. As tstorm823 said, you never have the fixed principles for that.

Another interesting way to see this :
Conservatives preserve and maintain ways of life liberals once successfully fought out.
 

tstorm823

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Yeah, what you are doing here is making way too many assumption. Firstly, just because someone is anti-Trump, doesn't mean they want the country to fail. I've seen way to much of this nonsense on Fox pundits. They are anti-Trump because they think Trump is failing the country.
Let's not pretend there weren't people on this website who played the "well, it might get rid of Trump" game at the first sign of crisis. We were both here to see it.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Let's not pretend there weren't people on this website who played the "well, it might get rid of Trump" game at the first sign of crisis. We were both here to see it.
Seeing a political upside to something negative isn't what you were describing.
 

ObsidianJones

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Pick your favorite Republican congressman or senator, there's almost certainly a quote of them saying they don't like the president's personality. But that comes with a caveat along the lines of "but I support the president because the president and the country succeed or fail together, and I want this country to succeed." There is no not backing him now. Trump isn't that exceptionally vile. The exceptionally vile thing going on are the people who would rather see the country fail than Trump succeed. Plenty of people hated Obama, plenty of people were terrible to Obama, I don't think in 2010 there were people hoping for an economic recession to get him out of office. It's one thing to criticize a president for what they've done, it's an entirely different level to hope something horrible happens outside the president's influence to drive him out of office. That's more crude and vindictive than even Trump.

The issue is that you have to recognize what you consider success, other people consider failure. If I choose to see the America that was promised in my youth; the one of equal opportunity, the one that strives to treat everyone equally, the America that asked for the Poor, the Sick, and the Hungry... and I compare it to this here? I consider this country a failure.

You can see the successes of it. And you know what? I legitimately admire that about you. No falsehoods. You're here every day fighting for what you honestly believe in. That goes hand-in-hand of the America I believed in. We don't have to agree, but we must co-exist. Because at the end of the day, we are Americans and we should be for each other. If you never believed in anything I said before, or anything I will say again, believe that is the honest to God's truth. As I want for every human, I want you to be strong and empowered to pursue your beliefs. That is my America.

However, I see an America that being torn at the seems. And to spin a phrase on its head, it's being done by people on both sides. I do not see the President continuing to say Partisan subject matters to be unifying. Whether it is true to his beliefs or not, he doesn't unify anything but his own base. The problem is, America isn't made up of his own base. And as the President... that's a failure. He's the leader of America. Not the leader of who he thinks is right.

In that essence, he has completely failed this country. He's been a stalwart champion of Capitalism. He should be emblazoned on The Mount Rushmore of Capitalism for all he's done for Capitalism. But in the end, Capitalism is an idea. People like Saelune who are seeing their rights chipped away? They are real. People like my mother and Grandmother who are now dead because Trump saw the Covid-19 information and chose to ignore it? They are... were real.

Let me put it to you this way. My personal Dislike for Trump doesn't factor in to my thoughts that he's an literal Danger to America. I thought W was an idiot most of his time in the White House. The Iraq war was a thinly veiled attempt for oil, allowing Drug companies to squeeze us dry is deplorable, and his vp was a laugh riot. All distasteful. All didn't make me want to remove him. I can not say the same for Trump.
 

gorfias

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Just saw a post from an anti-Trumper state something to the effect that Joe Biden could take a dump on the doorstep of an orphanage and she'll support him if it means getting rid of Trump. I've linked an article earlier in this thread of a woman supporting Biden even though she believes Tara Reade, if it means getting rid of Trump. With such enthusiastic support, I don't think Biden short of pulling an Epstein, is going anywhere. So, now I'm thinking about what will the US looks like if/when either win? And what the general election is going to look like. (With this Coronavirus, hard to tell: this is supposed to be more or less over. Lockdown is supposed to be tapering off. And it has. I think you can go to a golf course now. But just today, the law now requires face masks for entering stores. What will the conventions look like!?!?)
 

Saelune

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Just saw a post from an anti-Trumper state something to the effect that Joe Biden could take a dump on the doorstep of an orphanage and she'll support him if it means getting rid of Trump. I've linked an article earlier in this thread of a woman supporting Biden even though she believes Tara Reade, if it means getting rid of Trump. With such enthusiastic support, I don't think Biden short of pulling an Epstein, is going anywhere. So, now I'm thinking about what will the US looks like if/when either win? And what the general election is going to look like. (With this Coronavirus, hard to tell: this is supposed to be more or less over. Lockdown is supposed to be tapering off. And it has. I think you can go to a golf course now. But just today, the law now requires face masks for entering stores. What will the conventions look like!?!?)
Trump said he forcefully grabs women by the pussy. People still supported him. Trump supporters keep condemning Biden supporters for doing the same thing they did.
 

Trunkage

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Trump said he forcefully grabs women by the pussy. People still supported him. Trump supporters keep condemning Biden supporters for doing the same thing they did.
He also stated that he could shot anyone on the street and no one could stop him. And I'd totally believe that right now
 

SupahEwok

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a) Those people aren't politicians. Bill O'Reilly isn't. Rush Limbaugh isn't. The people around your dinner table aren't. What matters here is the people they support. Think Ted Cruz, he's not throwing slurs around. Think John McCain, he famously scolded people for what they said about Obama.
b) Your experience is very recent. Those sorts of things didn't exist prior to the 90s.

As far as the moral panics go, you are properly identifying it as a conservative thing. That is not the same thing as a Republican thing. There were (and still are in some cases) conservative Democrats. Jack Thompson was a Democrat. I suspect the people afraid Rock n Roll would encourage interracial relations were Democrats. The segregationists you're talking about were Democrats.

Conservative isn't an ideology. It's a pragmatic position. It's just preserving the existing way of doing things. That's different than many political ideologies in that it's totally relative. You have to ask whose way of doing things is being preserved. Republicans and Democrats both had conservative wings in the civil rights era, but Republican conservatives were for the culture of the north, Democratic conservatives were southerners, these two groups weren't fighting for the same things at all.

So you're right, there have always been conservatives who would use demagogery, insults, or moral panic. But that says nothing about Republicans. The difference in the parties is not primarily their views on issues, it's their views on political structures overall. Democrats demagogue because their idea of governance is to represent popular opinion. Republicans see governance as top down leadership and aim to be above the moral common denominator (or at least appear to be so). It's pretty much literally in the names.
As is the usual from you, deflection and deliberate obfuscation.

Let's hit up A first. When I replied to you, you were the one who said "right wing people" and "the Republican Party". Nothing about politicians. Don't try to reframe it the other way. It is also basically dishonest to take "the Republican Party" as its politicians. It is not. The Republican Party is every single member who identifies as such. Many give money to the party, many simply identify themselves as the party. The party is all of them. And every person I mentioned is a Republican and contributes to their voice.

B. My experience is the last 27 years. 27 years is a long time. You're the one who wants to appeal to "reality". My childhood, teenage years, my young adulthood, those are "reality", not some fantasy that we're still in the Reagan years.

"Ideology: a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy."

The position that the status quo should be maintained is an ideology, and you're just as beholden to it as many other conservatives I've met.
 

Trunkage

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Let's not pretend there weren't people on this website who played the "well, it might get rid of Trump" game at the first sign of crisis. We were both here to see it.
Yes. because they think Trump is failing the country
 

Saelune

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He also stated that he could shot anyone on the street and no one could stop him. And I'd totally believe that right now
His response to Covid IS that. If he just shot someone, atleast that would be just one death, not over 70,000 and rising.
 

gorfias

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Trump said he forcefully grabs women by the pussy. People still supported him. Trump supporters keep condemning Biden supporters for doing the same thing they did.
There were (are?) Republican "never Trump"(ers) . I don't know how their numbers compare to those that want Biden to step down. At this point though, I think anyone that believes there's a good chance Biden will step down are kidding themselves. Do you think that still a strong possibility? Would you want it?
 

tstorm823

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The issue is that you have to recognize what you consider success, other people consider failure. If I choose to see the America that was promised in my youth; the one of equal opportunity, the one that strives to treat everyone equally, the America that asked for the Poor, the Sick, and the Hungry... and I compare it to this here? I consider this country a failure.

You can see the successes of it. And you know what? I legitimately admire that about you. No falsehoods. You're here every day fighting for what you honestly believe in. That goes hand-in-hand of the America I believed in. We don't have to agree, but we must co-exist. Because at the end of the day, we are Americans and we should be for each other. If you never believed in anything I said before, or anything I will say again, believe that is the honest to God's truth. As I want for every human, I want you to be strong and empowered to pursue your beliefs. That is my America.

However, I see an America that being torn at the seems. And to spin a phrase on its head, it's being done by people on both sides. I do not see the President continuing to say Partisan subject matters to be unifying. Whether it is true to his beliefs or not, he doesn't unify anything but his own base. The problem is, America isn't made up of his own base. And as the President... that's a failure. He's the leader of America. Not the leader of who he thinks is right.

In that essence, he has completely failed this country. He's been a stalwart champion of Capitalism. He should be emblazoned on The Mount Rushmore of Capitalism for all he's done for Capitalism. But in the end, Capitalism is an idea. People like Saelune who are seeing their rights chipped away? They are real. People like my mother and Grandmother who are now dead because Trump saw the Covid-19 information and chose to ignore it? They are... were real.

Let me put it to you this way. My personal Dislike for Trump doesn't factor in to my thoughts that he's an literal Danger to America. I thought W was an idiot most of his time in the White House. The Iraq war was a thinly veiled attempt for oil, allowing Drug companies to squeeze us dry is deplorable, and his vp was a laugh riot. All distasteful. All didn't make me want to remove him. I can not say the same for Trump.
Ok, but you would want him to be a success if that could happen. I would never expect you to celebrate a crisis. You are certainly not the person who literally said on the old forums that they hope Trump dies of covid-19. You can dislike and disagree as vehemently as you deem appropriate, that's still different in kind to those who actively wish for bad things to happen out of spite.

Let's hit up A first. When I replied to you, you were the one who said "right wing people" and "the Republican Party". Nothing about politicians.
The conversation was comparing Trump to other politicians, I don't need to qualify what I'm talking about.

B. My experience is the last 27 years. 27 years is a long time. You're the one who wants to appeal to "reality". My childhood, teenage years, my young adulthood, those are "reality", not some fantasy that we're still in the Reagan years.
This is literally the only Republican president you've experienced like this. The only other Republican president in your lifetime was not an insult comic.

The position that the status quo should be maintained is an ideology, and you're just as beholden to it as many other conservatives I've met.
No, it isn't. Continuing to do the same is not an ideal. It's not a goal. It's just a safe default. Conservatives in 1776 supported the monarchy. Conservatives now obviously don't support the monarchy. Because it's not a system of ideas or ideals. There is no conservative ideal. What is conservative constantly changes by nature, even within the same person. Someone can flip on an issue while still being conservative if the status quo changes and proves to be beneficial. It's just pragmatic.
 

SupahEwok

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His response to Covid IS that. If he just shot someone, atleast that would be just one death, not over 70,000 and rising.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that although Trump's handling of this disaster has been its own disaster, I don't think the US would have been culturally prepared even if Hillary was president. Regardless of any other policy differences, this has not only been a federal administration failure. It is a failure of government of every level across the country, and a failure of many of our citizens who refuse to do what they can to work together as a community. And the issues at the root of this failure go back decades, on both sides of the aisle, and to American culture itself.

Trump is responsible for death, but death was coming no matter how well the affair was handled.
 
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Trunkage

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.No, it isn't. Continuing to do the same is not an ideal. It's not a goal. It's just a safe default. Conservatives in 1776 supported the monarchy. Conservatives now obviously don't support the monarchy. Because it's not a system of ideas or ideals. There is no conservative ideal. What is conservative constantly changes by nature, even within the same person. Someone can flip on an issue while still being conservative if the status quo changes and proves to be beneficial. It's just pragmatic.
Well, that makes most ideologies not ideologies. Progressives used to be about male sufferage. Now, they don’t care about it, unless someone takes it away. Some were pro-Eugenics or putting heaps of people in mental hospitals to “benefit society and those who need help’.

I see Conservative as an ideology based around maintaining tradition. Progressives are about Freedom from x. Libertarians are about Freedom to do x. And, of course, these are generalisations. For example, at a point in time, in Soviet Russia, the Conservatives would have been Communist. And the Progressives would have been Capitalists.
 

SupahEwok

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Ok, but you would want him to be a success if that could happen. I would never expect you to celebrate a crisis. You are certainly not the person who literally said on the old forums that they hope Trump dies of covid-19. You can dislike and disagree as vehemently as you deem appropriate, that's still different in kind to those who actively wish for bad things to happen out of spite.



The conversation was comparing Trump to other politicians, I don't need to qualify what I'm talking about.



This is literally the only Republican president you've experienced like this. The only other Republican president in your lifetime was not an insult comic.



No, it isn't. Continuing to do the same is not an ideal. It's not a goal. It's just a safe default. Conservatives in 1776 supported the monarchy. Conservatives now obviously don't support the monarchy. Because it's not a system of ideas or ideals. There is no conservative ideal. What is conservative constantly changes by nature, even within the same person. Someone can flip on an issue while still being conservative if the status quo changes and proves to be beneficial. It's just pragmatic.
Literally not responding to the points at hand for A and B, just handwaving dismissals. Very "pragmatic" of you.

 

Kuplung

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Well, that makes most ideologies not ideologies. Progressives used to be about male sufferage. Now, they don’t care about it, unless someone takes it away. Some were pro-Eugenics or putting heaps of people in mental hospitals to “benefit society and those who need help’.

I see Conservative as an ideology based around maintaining tradition. Progressives are about Freedom from x. Libertarians are about Freedom to do x. And, of course, these are generalisations. For example, at a point in time, in Soviet Russia, the Conservatives would have been Communist. And the Progressives would have been Capitalists.
Communists were the liberals against the tsar back then. But maintaining whatever tradition there is, is not an ideology. It is not specific enough to be ideology.
 

Trunkage

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Communists were the liberals against the tsar back then. But maintaining whatever tradition there is, is not an ideology. It is not specific enough to be ideology.
They sure were Progressives against the Tsar. But what is Progressive in 1920 is Conservative in 2020. One day, Conservatives will see Same Sex Marriage as a Conservative ideal.

As to tradition, I find it pretty infuriating that some Conservatives claim that since something has worked well up to this point, it will suit society in the future. So, I agree. Maintaining tradition shouldn’t be an ideology. But it is. The amount of times a I’ve heard judeo-Christian tradtion as a justification for an idea is ridiculous. As a generalisation, Conservative see it as a trial and error process that leads to the best ideas coming to the top. Scientifically, the existence of a tradition proves its validity. Anyone you talks about ‘when I was young, it was better when ....’ falls in this category. Which can be a lot of Liberals

See the current response to the pandemic. There are a bunch of people just wanting it to get ‘back to normal’. The tradition before this event is important and must be maintained. It has proven validity that it works. As opposed to another bunch of people who recognise that we are never going back to 2019.

See also the Joe Biden response. Conservative Democrats want to ‘return to normalcy,’ like Obama was somehow a golden age. Where Progressives recognise that Obama was problematic but better than Trump.

Buttogieg, who is at best a moderate Democrat, was speaking about his version of Medicare for All, paying less tuition at colleges and forgiving those debts. Which would NEVER have been an idea brought up by Obama. In fact, most were pretty progressive, but only compared to Conservative Democrats. Because tradition is a hard thing to break.The Baby Boomers are almost all out of politics. This is their last stand. Once they are gone, what they think is tradition will die and a new tradition will emerge. You can see this with young Democrats and Republicans

You HAVE to remember, with people like this, your idea for reform has a negative point already against it, as it doesn’t not exist and hasn’t proven its worth. Their ides exists and is thus worthwhile. They are up one point. You are already two points down before you even start talking. If you don’t take this into consideration, you will automatically fail any argument you attempt and thus reinforce their idea, giving them another point