Will Joe Biden Drop Out of the Presidential Race

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Your best defence you're employing here is to argue that in absolute dollar terms, the US welfare system offers roughly the same as countries considerably less rich. Okay, let's say just for convenience, we accept that.

I am discussing, at core, the principle that in a capitalist liberal democracy, social hierarchy is in large part determined by income / wealth. Therefore, the larger the disparity between rich and poor, the greater the hierarchy. So even if the USA is giving in absolute dollar value the same amount to the poor that somewhere like France, Sweden or Spain does, it is still a more unequal society, and that reflects right wing inclinations and policy.
 
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SupahEwok

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The poor in America have access to basically all of human knowledge. Have access to affordable vehicles. Delicious foods. Infinite entertainment. A teenager on absolute minimum wage can work one week and afford a 40" 4k smart tv. At this moment in history, luxury is cheaper than necessities.
You actually have no idea what it's like being poor in America today, do you?

Real wealth isn't money. It's time and energy, which is largely bound by your wealth. Need to work 2 full time jobs to make rent? No time or energy to take advantage of that "infinite knowledge". Can't afford laundry machines? Gotta spend a couple hours sitting around a laundromat to have clean clothing. Too exhausted by the demands of labor to cook when you get home? You'll eat some fast food or prepackaged frozen meal which is certainly not as "delicious" as proper cooking, and which is ruinous to your health and well-being in the long run.

And you honestly think people are satisifed for this kind of life, where all they practically have is Netflix with the kids to look forward to, for the rest of their lives, which includes working to the day they die since most jobs don't have any kind of pension anymore, and poor people can't afford to put a portion of their income into a 401k even if their work offers them the option, and Social Security is on track to implode within our life times.


You complain that people here treat the Republicans as evil, yet Scrooge was hardly meant to be a role model and I'm frankly not seeing a large difference between your and his rhetoric, except that you'll grasp at "the charity of America's wealthy" as some kind of deflection. After all, people with all the wealth know how to distribute that wealth to meet poor people's needs better than the poor do, amirite?
 

Trunkage

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Your only argument is "but Trump" or "but Republicans", the only reason you would say that is if you thought the threat of them winning is what will persuade me to vote for them.

As has been said many many times by not just me, just pointing to Republicans is not an election strategy. It's not empowering to the people. Bootlicking the Republicans because if we don't a bunch of Democrats could change party is just about the worst thing you could ever say in support of them. This is perhaps the worst argument in their favor possible.

I know what's at stake, the continued death march behind people who stand for nothing but themselves. No thanks, I'm out.
I mean, your fundamentally wrong, Trump pointed at Obama and Clinton saying they need to go to jail. He was also against the EU and China, insulted the press and anyone he didn’t like. And won. What was he for? A wall. Because immigrants are the worst. So... steel workers and miners then? What a legacy

if anything, looking at 2016, the Democrats should start insulting more, make up lies and pretend everything Trump does is evil. Because it worked in 2016 and they certainly don’t do that enough
 

Trunkage

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The Obama administration chose to resolve the crisis in a way that hurt ordinary people and enriched the people responsible for the crash. It decided to do that. It did not have to. There was nothing necessary about the misery caused.
That’s half true. Bush started a lot of those programs. He did expand them but added some more for the little guy.

what truely surprised me was how quickly Trump was to copy Bush/Obama, being a man of the people and all (/sarcasm. Of course Trump bailed out big business over the little guy, just like Bush and Obama. He is THE business president.)

I wonder if the Tea Party will come back. I have been hearing more from Occupy Wallstreeet lately
 

Trunkage

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So the current theory of some pundits is that the lockdowns are only around to hurt Trump. All those governors just want to destroy Trump and are willing to take the economy with it. I would be surprised at this talk, but I remember how they saw Obama and how he was always ‘destroying’ the economy,

It doesn’t help when governors claim they only have 6 Covid deaths, as so many had other factors that contributed to their death and they shouldn’t countEd (because that’s how we count flu deaths... not. It also means that there’s never been and AIDS death.) So forcing them into exercise plans is a better response than social distancing
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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I mean, your fundamentally wrong, Trump pointed at Obama and Clinton saying they need to go to jail. He was also against the EU and China, insulted the press and anyone he didn’t like. And won. What was he for? A wall. Because immigrants are the worst. So... steel workers and miners then? What a legacy

if anything, looking at 2016, the Democrats should start insulting more, make up lies and pretend everything Trump does is evil. Because it worked in 2016 and they certainly don’t do that enough
He also got fewer votes than Bush did in 2004. The problem was that Hillary lost people across the country except in NY and California. She got about the same amount of votes as Obama did in 2012, which was a massive drop from what he got in '08. While Hillary maintained the raw number of votes, where those votes were won shifted in such a way that she lost.

I'm not saying that not attacking your opponent is the smart strategy. I'm saying that it can't be your only strategy.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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So the current theory of some pundits is that the lockdowns are only around to hurt Trump.
According to Eric Trump, coronavirus itself only exists to hurt Trump. It will "magically" disappear after the election.

I'm not saying that not attacking your opponent is the smart strategy. I'm saying that it can't be your only strategy.
Indeed. Fundamentally, you have to offer something.

As despicable as Trump is, he offered people stuff. He offered the Republican base all their normal obsessions. He added on some sort of concrete action against immigration, even if that was concrete in the sense of construction material rather than policy effectiveness. He gave a message to many post-industrial Americans that he was on their side and would look out for them. Of course, he's not really done anything for them: coal is still in decline, and there's been no miracle recovery of manufacturing jobs which are still well below pre-2007 crash levels even though the wider economy recovered. But he doesn't need to really do much: he just needs to talk the game long enough, because the Democrats have lost too much trust and it will take quite a while for people to realise Trump is just hot air.
 

tstorm823

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Pray tell, how would you scale it? Percentage of GDP? Absolute terms? Percentage of average wage is more meaningful by far.
Percent of cost of living.

Need to work 2 full time jobs to make rent?
How many people do you think need to work two jobs to make rent? I'm not arguing against the downsides of poverty. I'm arguing that the US has safety nets to provide for people's needs.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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How many people do you think need to work two jobs to make rent? I'm not arguing against the downsides of poverty. I'm arguing that the US has safety nets to provide for people's needs.
Nobody thinks the USA doesn't have safety nets. They just think they're relatively small and weak, and they provide for people's needs a lot less than you want to make out.
 

SupahEwok

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How many people do you think need to work two jobs to make rent? I'm not arguing against the downsides of poverty. I'm arguing that the US has safety nets to provide for people's needs.
In my experience? Many. I knew a woman who tried to work three jobs (two of them were part time, before you nitpick) and collapsed from the strain right in front of me. I was over at her side ready to perform CPR as my supervisor was calling an ambulance (it didn't turn out to be a heartattack, just probably low blood sugar and strain or something).

I worked for just above minimum wage at a plant. I was privileged, I was on a break from college and staying with my parents who weren't charging me rent, I worked my 5am to 1:30pm shift and was done. Every. Single. Other. Person. In that plant, had another job or gig. Everyone. My main partner ran a gas station, he'd have half an hour to go home and shower before another 8 hour shift. And the only break he got on weekends was that he didn't have to go to the plant job, he still had his shift at the gas station. There was a big guy who watched out for me, he had to get gigs DJing nights and weekends to supplement his income instead of spending his off time with his wife and daughter. I know a lot of stories of living in poverty, even as I've never quite fallen into it myself (closest I came was checking out food stamps while in college a couple of times, and by the way, what you can get with food stamps sucks).

The very worst thing about poverty is that with all the time and energy it sucks out of them, they can't improve themselves to climb out of it. My friend with the gas station has an intellectual mind, I could see him as a professor of international politics in another lifetime, but as it is he could barely stay awake on his feet while at work. Some of the young guys managed to maneuver themselves into vocational training, like welding school, but anybody without the vigor of youth was basically stuck in a rut for life. Some of them are even scared to do so, scared of failure and being out on the money they can't afford to spend frivolously. They don't have any hope for themselves for climbing out of the ranks of the poor, all their hope is on their kids making it out if the parents manage to save up enough. And the kids have lower odds of success than the average middle class schmuck like me as well. I coached one of the women I worked with on how her daughter should apply to college, what her essay would say, whether she should go to community college first to get the basics done cheaper. Things that were common sense to me and my educated parents were completely unknown to her. And her daughter isn't going to have the room to make the mistakes I made in my 7 year odyssey to a 4 year degree. Even if she gets through it (and even worse if she doesn't get through it) she'll have massive debt shackling her and her opportunities for a big chunk of her life.

All this shit? These are American problems. These are the problems your neighbors in countrymen are having. I don't know how many had housing allowances and food stamps and whatever other stopgap provisions you want to pull out. Probably many of them, and it's not enough for them to live more than a subsidence living. And the goal shouldn't be subsidence living, it should be uplift.

Scrooge-"Are there no prisons?"
"Plenty of prisons..."
Scrooge-"And the Union workhouses." . "Are they still in operation?"
"Both very busy, sir..."
"Those who are badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
Scrooge- "If they would rather die," "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."
 
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Kwak

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if anything, looking at 2016, the Democrats should start insulting more, make up lies and pretend everything Trump does is evil. Because it worked in 2016 and they certainly don’t do that enough
"pretend"? Abusing power, trust and truth for self-gain IS evil.
 

tstorm823

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In my experience? Many.
I come from a town where the industry all died. I've worked in a warehouse doing manual labor. And my experience doesn't match what you're saying. The people I've known to have multiple jobs aren't what you're describing: it's the guy who picks up half a second shift part time during the holiday rush cause it's easy money. The aspiring cook who doesn't get enough hours at a nice restaurant and fills the afternoon making fast food. The person with a full time job that helps out a family business a few hours a week. The teenager taking on any job they can get to buy themselves an old car ASAP. The person DJing on weekends would fit my experience. I've known all sorts from all walks of life, and I've never known someone who scrambled to multiple jobs to make ends meet. It has always been someone going beyond the basic needs and doing what they want. And those people are already an extreme minority for doing that.

Also, if you find someone again who needs guidance on pretty much anything, they should also visit the library. Librarians are a great resource.
 

SupahEwok

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I've known all sorts from all walks of life, and I've never known someone who scrambled to multiple jobs to make ends meet. It has always been someone going beyond the basic needs and doing what they want. And those people are already an extreme minority for doing that.
Then it sounds like exactly what I said: you don't know what it is to be truly poor in America today.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Then it sounds like exactly what I said: you don't know what it is to be truly poor in America today.
Here's the thing: I'm pretty sure that I do. Which raises real questions about your claims.
And what's better than either of you, or me, are people who specifically work with poverty, or - heaven forbid - letting those in poverty speak for themselves.

 

tstorm823

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Yeah, calling me a liar is about all you can do at this point, huh.
Sort of. I've interacted with the poor, I've volunteered at food banks, I've seen real poverty. It isn't what you're describing. I have friends working at plants, things like packaging cat food, who make more money than I do with their one full time job. I don't believe for a moment you worked at a plant full of people who all had multiple jobs, but that could just be ignorance and exaggeration on your part, and if you think a plant worker is the poor, you may not have seen what poverty actually looks like yourself.
 

SupahEwok

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I don't believe for a moment you worked at a plant full of people who all had multiple jobs, but that could just be ignorance and exaggeration on your part, and if you think a plant worker is the poor, you may not have seen what poverty actually looks like yourself.
We made $10/hour. There are plant jobs that pay a whole lot more than that, but it isn't the one we were working at. You go and try raising a family while owning a house on $10/hour, then get back to me. Or is it going to be their fault for having "unsustainable expenses" like kids and proper housing?

If I went and got a bunch of notarized affidavits, would you believe me? I doubt it. You seem determined to believe you know everything, even to the point of espousing your ignorance as a virtue in one of the Covid-19 threads.

I could go on, but I have a rule: once someone starts calling me a liar so they can dismiss what I say, further conversation is useless. So long, and [censored for sake of site rules].
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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Sort of. I've interacted with the poor, I've volunteered at food banks, I've seen real poverty. It isn't what you're describing. I have friends working at plants, things like packaging cat food, who make more money than I do with their one full time job. I don't believe for a moment you worked at a plant full of people who all had multiple jobs, but that could just be ignorance and exaggeration on your part, and if you think a plant worker is the poor, you may not have seen what poverty actually looks like yourself.
The fact that you call it 'interacting' already shows that you don't conceive the conditions you talk about. I've worked in construction and security whilst doing my studies - I've worked 'butterfly' shifts of 15 hours each day for consecutive days, I've worked with people who've survived off of milk and bread daily to try and save up what little money they can so they no longer have to live with atrocious rent, I've met people who work 30 days in a row for sub-minimum wage, sometimes doing 'butterfly' day-and-night shifts for weeks on end, sustaining themselves on whatever they can just so they can afford bare necessities and provide for their families.

Though of course, this was not in the US. Most of the people I've worked with include illegal immigrants who pull insane shift just so they can scrape by. Hell, my own parents worked such shifts abroad just so they can afford to pay off debts back home that they had taken out during financial crises. Poverty like this exists everywhere, as do the working conditions. Least of all because Agema posted a source right in this thread showing hard empirical evidence to support it, that you seem to ignore to claim that someone's experiences are insincere because they don't line up with the bubble you grew up in.