Will the Nintendo doomsaying ever end?

Something Amyss

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Lunar Templar said:
nope, people will always ***** about Nintendo and cry 'doom' at every misstep they make, even going so far as to ignore other company's that might be in worse shape.
Well, that isn't happening.

EvilRoy said:
I actually went digging around to try to see all the escapist threads about Nintendo in general, and the grand count within about 4 weeks is...

Articles/News:
A single "Game Theory" video, that was posted recently - but the video was created and posted months ago.
A poorly done news article based on a rumor, that in no way trash talks them.

Gaming Forum:
Two threads complaining about how people are complaining about Nintendo (by the same author, including this thread).

Off Topic Forum:
0
That sounds like about the normal levels required to set off a Nintendo "persecution" streak.

mad825 said:
If you want, I can create one for you. I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make other than you need confirmation bias to believe something.
If you have to create one, it doesn't bode well for the notion that this is a real problem and not just Nintendo fans tilting at windmills.
 

Rednog

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Aiddon said:
FFMaster said:
Yep, a fair few of these people normally then go "I would happily pay to play Mario on my IPad or my PS4" as well, so its not that they dislike Nintendo, they just basically can't afford a WiiU or 3DS.
Except we all know that's a lie; if you can afford videogames in general whether it be a PS4 or an iPad (which AREN'T cheap), you can afford to have a 3DS or a Wii U alongside them. Suggesting otherwise is trying to go "oh woe is me" over what Louis CK rightfully defined as "white people problems." There's something else going on; when I see people bang on about Nintendo I'm more reminded of children being afraid of cooties than anything.
Yes and no, sure if they were able to afford a PS4 they'd be able to afford a Wii U, but would they necessarily choose a Wii U over a PS4? It's one thing to afford a Wii U, it's another thing to have to drop $300+ to buy in for what is essentially a small list of first party titles. Let's face it the third party versions of the same games, people are going to prefer to play them on the other systems, so it's just about the exclusives.

I actually just bought a Wii U and I can honestly say that I'd rather play Nintendo's games on any other platform than the Wii U.
 

RedDeadFred

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Have people really been saying this lately? The main thing I've been seeing people say about Nintendo this year is how great their library is becoming. Where are these imagined slights coming from?
 

LaoJim

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Aiddon said:
FFMaster said:
Yep, a fair few of these people normally then go "I would happily pay to play Mario on my IPad or my PS4" as well, so its not that they dislike Nintendo, they just basically can't afford a WiiU or 3DS.
Except we all know that's a lie; if you can afford videogames in general whether it be a PS4 or an iPad (which AREN'T cheap), you can afford to have a 3DS or a Wii U alongside them. Suggesting otherwise is trying to go "oh woe is me" over what Louis CK rightfully defined as "white people problems." There's something else going on; when I see people bang on about Nintendo I'm more reminded of children being afraid of cooties than anything.
Wait, what? How does that even work? Anyone who can afford A can also afford A+B?

The most basic Wii U is currently £190 on Amazon. If we assume that new Wii U and PS4 games are £40 each, then it's the cost of nearly 5 games. A gamer who already has a PS4 and £250 in their pocket has to make a choice between say GTA V, Far Cry 4, Dragons Age Inquisition, Shadows of Mordor, Alien Isolation and Wolfenstein over a new system + Mario Kart say. Mario Kart is good, but it's not that good. Sure as you start pile on games the advances get less and you could argue that the best 10 WiiU games beat out the best 15 PS4 games (or 15>20), but that might require a further investment of upto £600 (15x40 for PS4 games, 10x40+190 for WiiU) until you start seeing that return, over whatever period. For someone who has already spent £300-400 on a new PS4 tht's not an inconsiderable amount of money.

Saying you would buy Mario for £40 on a system you have but wouldn't spend £40+£190 for a new system isn't really unreasonable. Nor is saying that there aren't enough games on the system to really make it worthwhile. If you end up with 19 games on the system you are paying an extra £10 premium for each one.

(For the record I bought a Wii U a few months back, I'm not sure it was that good of an investment either in the short or long term and am wondering if I should have waited a few months until I had more money to get a PS4/XB1.)
 

Papadam

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Where is all this doom? Seems to be only in the head of Nintendo fans.

The Wii U is selling like crap and people question if Nintendo is really capable of making a great console again and maybe should focus on third party instead.

Some rave about how great games Wii U got. Yea it got 3 big games this yea and that's great but didn't help sales that much. And look at next year. Only one big game announced for 2015. (Zelda) Compare that to all the big games the other consoles are getting.
 

gorfias

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mad825 said:
Gorfias said:
Nowadays, I mostly play on PC. But I'm rooting for Wii U.
You realise that a console that's over 2 years old which doesn't even beat the Xbone constitutes as a failure right? Also, when a library consist of ports from predecessors, it isn't necessarily a positive thing.
Depends up how you define a failure.

I have a 1/2 dozen Wii U games already and I don't even have the new Smash Brothers yet. The tablet and things like the Wonderful 100 are giving me a really different gaming experience. The other 2 are largely just improvements on Gen 6.

But enjoying the console isn't enough to call it not a failure to me. (As opposed to the war "winner" which doesn't interest me. Failing means I made a bad buy. PS3 arguably wasn't the Gen 7 "winner" but who cares? It wasn't a fail. I've gotten 6 great years of gaming out of it so far.

So what makes it a fail to me? If I don't end up buying a good 20 games for it over the next 4 years. And I don't mean front loading (buying 20 games right now and have the system be discontinued today). I mean purchases over the next 4 years, with Nintendo continuing to support the thing.

Given those terms: 20 good games over the next 4 years, will the Wii U fail? I give it 4 to 1 that it does NOT fail. They're not going to go bankrupt and they're not going to bale on the thing. The very concept of consoles are likely on their last gasp. Nintendo may look back on these days as terrific times.
 

JayRPG

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I have posted in multiple threads with hugely detailed responses, everything I have ever written is fact based, I will list cliff notes here and it is pretty easy to google to find their truth.

- Nintendo has been in existence for over 100 years, they posted their first ever loss in 2012 (an extremely modest one by industry standards), and their second ever loss in 2013. They already made a surprise profit BEFORE amiibo and SSB, they will post a profit next reporting period, without a doubt.

- Even if they didn't post a profit, their net loss for 2012 was just under $240m, Nintendo have enough funds "in the bank" to take a $255m hit every single financial year until the year 2052. The Wii U could have literally disappeared from existence having only sold half a million consoles and Nintendo would in no way even begin to think they are in trouble, they would have more than enough money AND time to move in a different direction.

- Nintendo have had failures before, the virtual boy is the best known, the Wii U is more successful than the Virtual Boy, in fact, I'd say the Wii U is fine... by actual sales numbers up to September 2014 the Wii U had sold 1.5m more consoles than the Xbox One. Yes, the Wii U has been out longer and it's sales are slower, but they continually pick up during big releases and Nintendo has a pretty solid release schedule for the next 4-6 months. (Edit) Sales numbers are in for November now, X1 has finally taken over lifetime sales, the Wii U still sold 710,000 consoles in November though... It's hard to call that a failure. I'll be interested to see what December sales numbers are like as SSB and Amiibos both released very late in November.

- Nintendo do not "release the same game", and they definitely do not do it every year:
There have been 22 Assassin's creed titles since 2007
There have been 19 Zelda titles (including link's crossbow training) since 1987
There have been 16 SSB, Mario Kart, and MK Arcade titles since 1999

There have been 9 Farcry titles since 2004
There have been 3 Pikmin titles since 2004
There have been 5 Super Smash Bros titles since 1999

There have been 33 Call of Duty games (excluding digital re-releases/remakes) since 2003
There have been 20 Super Mario games (excluding digital re-releases/remakes) since 1985

- Microsoft's gaming division operated at a loss averaging $1Bn a year for 7 years straight, Sony operated at losses from $500m-$1Bn for 4 straight years, Nintendo received their first loss in 2012 after more than 100 years in existence, the loss was the second lowest loss ever recorded in the industry, their second loss was still on the low end of the spectrum for this industry.

There is a 1000% chance that Satoru Iwata just sits in his office laughing at people who think Nintendo are doomed. Saying they are doomed goes against absolutely everything, it goes against logic, it goes against facts, it goes against industry data, it goes against observable past events, it goes against common sense.

I don't see why people want Nintendo gone, if you don't like them, you do not have to buy their stuff, I think every company has it's merits, my favourite company is Sony because I am a JRPG gamer, I still own an Xbox 360 and One though, and I have never regretted my Wii U purchase, in fact, my Wii U has clocked the most playtime out of all my consoles over the last 4-5 months.

Nintendo are literally fine, they are more than fine, their predicted/modelled profits from Amiibo and Smash alone should be more than enough for anybody to see that.
 

JayRPG

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Papadam said:
Where is all this doom? Seems to be only in the head of Nintendo fans.

The Wii U is selling like crap and people question if Nintendo is really capable of making a great console again and maybe should focus on third party instead.

Some rave about how great games Wii U got. Yea it got 3 big games this yea and that's great but didn't help sales that much. And look at next year. Only one big game announced for 2015. (Zelda) Compare that to all the big games the other consoles are getting.
1. 710,000 consoles in 1 month is not "selling like crap", stop confusing "selling like crap" with "selling less than some other consoles".

2. Zelda, Starfox, Splatoon, Yoshi's woolly world, Kirby, xenoblade chronicles X, mario maker, Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, devil's third, mario party to name a few, these are all anticipated games coming next year for the Wii U.
 

Papadam

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Whatislove said:
Papadam said:
Where is all this doom? Seems to be only in the head of Nintendo fans.

The Wii U is selling like crap and people question if Nintendo is really capable of making a great console again and maybe should focus on third party instead.

Some rave about how great games Wii U got. Yea it got 3 big games this yea and that's great but didn't help sales that much. And look at next year. Only one big game announced for 2015. (Zelda) Compare that to all the big games the other consoles are getting.
1. 710,000 consoles in 1 month is not "selling like crap", stop confusing "selling like crap" with "selling less than some other consoles".

2. Zelda, Starfox, Splatoon, Yoshi's woolly world, Kirby, xenoblade chronicles X, mario maker, Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, devil's third, mario party to name a few, these are all anticipated games coming next year for the Wii U.
1. Where does the 710 000 consoles come from? In october it was around 68k...

2. Like I said, 1 big game: Zelda. Are any of the other games going to sell any significant number of consoles?
 

xaszatm

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Papadam said:
Whatislove said:
Papadam said:
Where is all this doom? Seems to be only in the head of Nintendo fans.

The Wii U is selling like crap and people question if Nintendo is really capable of making a great console again and maybe should focus on third party instead.

Some rave about how great games Wii U got. Yea it got 3 big games this yea and that's great but didn't help sales that much. And look at next year. Only one big game announced for 2015. (Zelda) Compare that to all the big games the other consoles are getting.
1. 710,000 consoles in 1 month is not "selling like crap", stop confusing "selling like crap" with "selling less than some other consoles".

2. Zelda, Starfox, Splatoon, Yoshi's woolly world, Kirby, xenoblade chronicles X, mario maker, Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, devil's third, mario party to name a few, these are all anticipated games coming next year for the Wii U.
1. Where does the 710 000 consoles come from? In october it was around 68k...

2. Like I said, 1 big game: Zelda. Are any of the other games going to sell any significant number of consoles?
1. I think the person is confusing Smash Wii U America Sales and Amiibo America Sales (both 710k) over America console sales, which was 242k this November. Not that great, honestly. I mean, they're clearly making a profit now, but I don't think the console is ever going to be popular. Maybe profitable in the end (which, really, is what matters more), but definitely not popular.

2. I don't know, but hey, at least all the games they're releasing are awesome. That being said, Splatoon hopefully will move consoles but baring, maybe a Metroid announcement (and even then, it would be an America only thing), it's going to take a series of games to get people to buy a Wii U. Well, that or third parties finally supporting the damn thing, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'd like to mention that I think Nintendo is going to be fine in the long run, but I'm not expecting Wii numbers here. Profit for the Wii U? Yeah, the troubles are finally ending for the console plus Nintendo has finished their renovations. Wii popularity? Not for the Wii U. Hopefully the next console generation sees something better for the new Nintendo console.
 

Las7

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Doomsayers always forget a few things:
1) Even though Wii U is selling poorly, they have been making a profit on the system since around the MK8 launch. Nintendo don't spend nearly as much on marketing their console as Sony/Microsoft.
2) Main sellers on the Nintendo Wii U are Nintendo published games, wonder who makes the most profit in such cases. Xbox/Sony's main sellers are still multi-platform games from the major publishers. The games Sony/Microsoft actually publish require Sony/Microsoft's major marketing effort. Especially Microsoft has sunk a lot of money to market the likes of Titanfall/Sunset. I don't think any game other than SSB/Pokemon has really been a big marketing push by Nintendo. If you look at the Wii U the biggest selling game that's from a Third Party publisher is probably ZombiU which has around 700-800k sells according to VG.
Nintendo makes most of it's money from the actual software - Wii U just facilitates that software on a console. Sony/Microsoft need to sell far more consoles to be profitable with the console itself than the big N.
3) Coming from Point 2) is another factor which is development cost, a lot of games right now are costing quite a lot to develop because of the bloated infrastructure of major publishers. Destiny is a good example of this we don't know exactly how much was spend to create and market the game but it's fairly easy to guess that SSB's overall development/marketing cost is going to be at most 1/5 of what Destiny cost to make. A game like Splatoon won't cost anywhere near CoD, Halo, MWF etc to develop.
Destiny is one of the major games this year as far as sells go but to make it profitable it needed to get those sales and subsequent DLC/Season Sales.
4) 3DS prints money - development costs are even lower than Wii U, once again the most successful games are Published by Nintendo
5) Amiibo - looking to be a successful venture, with demand being greater than what Nintendo probably predicted.

Overall as a Publisher Nintendo is far and away the most financially stable one, also whatever you might think about their games - they rarely come out broken upon release - don't require a DLC to actually complete the game - don't have heavy micro transaction practices etc.
If Nintendo doom was true it would be pretty sad, because it would mean the public awards publishers like EA/Ubisoft/Activision.
 

Something Amyss

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Whatislove said:
- Nintendo do not "release the same game", and they definitely do not do it every year:
There have been 22 Assassin's creed titles since 2007
There have been 19 Zelda titles (including link's crossbow training) since 1987
You know, in order to get the AC number, you need to include ports and at least one collection.

When you include all the remakes and collections of Zelda games, the number rises sharply.

Oh, sure, there have been more AC titles over the course of a few years, but Nintendo doesn't exactly come off as looking good in this equation. Merely the lesser of two evils.

And man, I think you know that since you had to exclude remakes and rereleases with Mario. Just the remakes alone...Hooboy. And then you count spinoffs and the like....yeah, this is a pretty disingenuous comparison.
 

xaszatm

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Zachary Amaranth said:
RedDeadFred said:
Have people really been saying this lately?
No. This is the Nintendo equivalent of the "cheap pop."
Well, there was that Yahoo article in which the author stated that Pokemon ORAS selling over 1.5 million copies worldwide was a bad thing because Nintendo video games won't be a success until they are on mobile and won't make a profit until then. Then he said that Advanced Wars mobile where you pay actual cash for units or Fire Emblem where you pay to rivive players were great gaming ideas. ...OK, that article is not so much Nintendoom speak as it is a clear example why investors should never get close to video game development but it's technically a Nintendoom article. (I'll link the article in a second, using this on a phone).

EDIT: Here it is:

http://news.yahoo.com/pokemon-killing-nintendo-203038043.html
 

Savagezion

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LaoJim said:
(For the record I bought a Wii U a few months back, I'm not sure it was that good of an investment either in the short or long term and am wondering if I should have waited a few months until I had more money to get a PS4/XB1.)
If it helps, I think you made a solid enough purchase. The PS4/XB1 price will drop in the next couple of years if you need to wait. (XB1 already has) However, in those next couple years, both Nintendo and Sony/Microsoft will be releasing better games as we are finally starting to get into the thick of the next gen. 2015 is shaping up to be the first year with multiple big releases across all platforms and re-releases are fading into the background.

Hell, I almost bought a Wii-U this year but decided against it because I didn't see any specials for black friday. It was the same as a regular purchase on any ol' day. SO I figured why not just buy it whenever I get the urge any ol' day? I may get one when the new Zelda comes out or whatever, not sure yet. I do know I will get one though as Nintendo seems like they are pulling some of their shit together finally. It isn't a monumental shift, for sure, but it is enough for me. PS4 is also now beckoning me as that system seriously plays into my gaming habits. Apparently the PS3 was some sort of 'failure' according to the video in the OP.
This is news to me because everyone I know with a 360 abandoned it the minute they bought a $299 PS3 and never played much on the 360 anymore. I was straight PS3 all last gen as the whole RROD turned me off majorly out of the gate. I expect each of the consoles to get 15-20 solid in house developed titles this year. Next year will probably be even stronger.

For me, the real question in regards to the Wii-U is will Nintendo give a fuck about a western and core audiences like they claim they will. We have heard this song and dance before from Nintendo for the past couple generations and then they change their minds later down the road.

As for the video in the OP, I am a Sony fan and Moviebob is a Nintendo fan. I totally disagree that Sony "got lucky". (3 times in a row?) I got a LOT to say about that, but I will spare anyone reading this far down. It'd just be a different type of fanboyism crap spewing. The Wii-U holds as much promise as any of the other consoles out there. It worries me because Nintendo is wishy washy and disregards western markets easily. XB1 worries me because Microsoft likes paying money for timed exclusives so it can pointlessly shout "first!" and other publisher brown nosing. Sony only has me worried because of financial turbulence in their other electronics departments.
 

kilenem

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I never got the Doom arguments because Nintendo is probably one of the most stable of the big three. Since Microsoft and Sony aren't doing that strong financially. Sony keeps laying off game Devs. I hope that stops since the VITA is almost dead in America.
 

Something Amyss

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xaszatm said:
Well, there was that Yahoo article in which the author stated that Pokemon ORAS selling over 1.5 million copies worldwide was a bad thing because Nintendo video games won't be a success until they are on mobile and won't make a profit until then. Then he said that Advanced Wars mobile where you pay actual cash for units or Fire Emblem where you pay to rivive players were great gaming ideas. ...OK, that article is not so much Nintendoom speak as it is a clear example why investors should never get close to video game development but it's technically a Nintendoom article. (I'll link the article in a second, using this on a phone).

EDIT: Here it is:

http://news.yahoo.com/pokemon-killing-nintendo-203038043.html
I'm not sure that really counts, though. PRofit seekers will always seek profits. BGR seems to focus on tech business, and seems to have a personal stake here in the form of "I want Pokémon on my Iiiiiiiiiipad!"

Though I stumbled on this by chance:


But this goes back to the issue of "if Mario games stagnate, Mario will lose its currency as a franchise" more than "Nintendooom!" As such, one culd consider the title click-baity. I do think it's a fair enough point, though.

I sort of think "Nintendoom" is mostly the equivalent of the "gamers are dead" articles: a bunch of people angry over misread or misrepresented media.
 

Nomanslander

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Matthew Jabour said:
(For those of you who haven't seen:)
Ugh! Moviebob at his Nintendo fanboy-IST! Yeah, that video is old. Watch his new stuff, he's pretty much admitted Nintendo was really the one that got "lucky" with the Wii, NOT Sony with the first two Playstations.
 

st0pnsw0p

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Whatislove said:
- Nintendo do not "release the same game", and they definitely do not do it every year:
There have been 22 Assassin's creed titles since 2007
There have been 19 Zelda titles (including link's crossbow training) since 1987
There have been 16 SSB, Mario Kart, and MK Arcade titles since 1999

There have been 9 Farcry titles since 2004
There have been 3 Pikmin titles since 2004
There have been 5 Super Smash Bros titles since 1999

There have been 33 Call of Duty games (excluding digital re-releases/remakes) since 2003
There have been 20 Super Mario games (excluding digital re-releases/remakes) since 1985
I'd just like to point out how flawed this way of looking at releases is.

You say there have been 20 Mario platformers since 1985. I'm going to assume you went by the Wikipedia list when making that statement, so that's what I'm going to work with, even though there are 3 games on that list that I wouldn't count in the Mario series and 1 game not on the list that I would count.

20 games in 30 years means there's been 1 Mario game for every 1.55 years the franchise has been around. But if you start counting more recently, you'd get much different results. If you start counting from 2006, the year NSMB released, you get 8 Mario games in 9 years. That's 1 Mario game for every 1.125 years, practically a yearly franchise at this point.

For Zelda, (I only count 17 games btw, not including Crossbow Training), from 1986 to 1998, the release of OoT, there were 5 games, 1 game per 2.6 years. From 1986 to present day, 17 games, which is 1 game per 1.7 years. From 1998 to present day, there have been 13 games. That's 1 game per 1.3 years, twice as frequent as the first 13 years the franchise was alive.

And take Megaman as another example. From '87 to present day, there have been 10 games in the main series, which is 1 game per 2.9 years. From '96 to the present day, there have been 3 megaman games. That's 1 game per 6.33 years.

Both ways of looking at those series are technically correct, but the one that better reflects the current situation of the franchise is in every case the second way.

Also, saying "But this other series has more releases in the same timeframe" doesn't excuse anything. If Sony started releasing 2 new GoW games each year, that wouldn't make EA releasing 1 new FIFA/NFL game per year any less bad.
 

JayRPG

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Whatislove said:
- Nintendo do not "release the same game", and they definitely do not do it every year:
There have been 22 Assassin's creed titles since 2007
There have been 19 Zelda titles (including link's crossbow training) since 1987
You know, in order to get the AC number, you need to include ports and at least one collection.

When you include all the remakes and collections of Zelda games, the number rises sharply.

Oh, sure, there have been more AC titles over the course of a few years, but Nintendo doesn't exactly come off as looking good in this equation. Merely the lesser of two evils.

And man, I think you know that since you had to exclude remakes and rereleases with Mario. Just the remakes alone...Hooboy. And then you count spinoffs and the like....yeah, this is a pretty disingenuous comparison.
You don't need to include ports for that AC number, the amount of spin-off AC games there are is astounding.

If I add in the proper remakes for Zelda (so not including virtual console downloads of the originals games) we punch it up to 23.

If I take away a few of the questionable AC titles it brings it down to 18-19... that's still very, very close for 2 series that have a 20 year life-span age difference.

The CoD comparison was also for Call of Duty's sake, there is no point in including virtual console downloads as new titles or re-releases, like-wise there is no point in including all the collections/compilations and re-releases of the same game CoD has done.

Super mario doesn't have what I would call spin-offs, they have new entries for separate series' based on the same IP. Luigi's Mansion isn't a Super Mario spin-off... it's not a platformer, and it now has 2 titles, it is it's own series.

The numbers I listed in comparison (incorrectly for Zelda because I was doing it rather quickly) only include titles (new or remakes) that charged full retail price on release. I didn't include New super luigi U because it's a DLC pack (even though it's sold complete as the original game now, new super mario bros U). I work on the concept that if I were adding square enix into this comparion, I would not include Final Fantasy 7 on PSOne and Final Fantasy 7 on PC as 2 different titles.. the PC version sells for $15, that is not what the original sold for at retail and it wasn't re-released by Square as a new flagship title.

The same goes for the PSN versions of Final Fantasy, they aren't new games, and they are sold for a fraction of their original cost, just like Nintendo's virtual console titles... there's no logic in counting super mario bros. 3 twice because it's available for 4.99 on the eshop.

The regular series Nintendo games are games that people want, why would Nintendo not make a new Super Smash Bros after 6 years? or a new Mario Kart games after 7 years? or a new Zelda game after 4 years?... these are hugely successful franchises, they have resisted the urge to buy 20 different studios and stick 12 of them on staggered developments of several titles in the same franchise like Ubisoft has with Assassin's creed.

Nintendo get shit on all the time for giving the people what they want, all their new stuff, all their original IPs, all their experimentation with their IPs are never mentioned. Nobody said "oh, another Luigi's mansion game" when Dark Moon came out, but it's only the second title in that series in 12 years... if they release another one though, better brace yourself for the criticism, it's not OK for Nintendo to make 3 games in the same series in over 12 years, only every company is allowed to make games as frequently as that.

I mean seriously, I have seen it written, and heard it said, "another pikmin game"... THERE HAS ONLY BEEN 3 PIKMIN GAMES IN OVER 10 GODDAMN YEARS, FARCRY CAME OUT IN THE SAME YEAR AS PIKMIN AND THERE ARE 3 TIMES THE NUMBER OF FARCRY TITLES AS THERE ARE PIKMIN TITLES.