Well considering Billy Batson is the quintisential embodiment Americana suburbia, it is a bit off. People don't make up a stink because they've got something against dark skinned people, they kick up a stick because it's supposed to be adapting defined characters and Captain Marvel isn't black. You think they'd have the balls or get away with casting the Falcon as a white dude? Like fuck they would, they'd have racism accusations flying (ba dum tsh) all over them. DC are already floundering in adapting stuff wtih any degree of sucess, they should stick to the established material, rather than changing defined characters to fill minority quotas. The thing is, they only decide to do it with lesser known characters rather than the big guns, so it's not that they want to diversify, they just have an easier time changing lesser known characters as the general public wont know.JimB said:I like to hope no one knows or cares enough about Captain Marvel to make a stink about it. Hell, my biggest complaint is he seems too old for the role, not too dark-skinned. Still, he's what happens when a wizard makes lightning; I really don't see why age, melanin level, or any of that stuff should prevent him from filling out a suit and saying things like, "Jeepers!"Zachary Amaranth said:But a black (well, half-black, half Samoan) Captain Marvel? Is the internet ready for that kind of explosion?
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Captain Marvel is not Billy Batson; or at least, he is not Billy Batson's appearance. He is a wizard's spell that so happens to look human.elvor0 said:Well considering Billy Batson is the quintessential embodiment Americana suburbia, it is a bit off.
They have something against a dark-skinned person playing a character whose race is in no way a defining nor even interesting component.elvor0 said:People don't make up a stink because they've got something against dark skinned people, they kick up a stick because it's supposed to be adapting defined characters and Captain Marvel isn't black.
Mirroring an action does not make it equivalent. That only works if you deny that social context has any relevance. When Hollywood develops a history of casting people of color to impersonate white people for the sake of playing white roles at the expense of white actors, then it will be the same thing.elvor0 said:You think they'd have the balls or get away with casting the Falcon as a white dude?
I need a citation for this assertion that they hired the Rock because he's black(-ish) and not because he's physically huge, has a goofy grin, and is a popular draw.elvor0 said:DC are already floundering in adapting stuff with any degree of success; they should stick to the established material, rather than changing defined characters to fill minority quotas.
Given that they never said the point is racial diversity--you're the one who said that, not them--I'm not sure what your point is.elvor0 said:If they really wanted to diversify, we'd see black Batman, Latino Spider Man or Asian Wonder Woman in the films.
Damn right. Shazam is the wizard's name, not Captain Marvel's.elvor0 said:Also, no matter how much DC insists Captain Marvels name has changed, I refuse, refuse I say! It was his name first!
Suggesting someone other than Terry Crews for Luke Cage just seems... wrong.FogHornG36 said:You make him John Stewart and i will go see that movie...
In marvel world, i would love to see him play as luke cage
But choosing Isaiah Mustafa to play Luke Cage feels just so right!ccggenius12 said:Suggesting someone other than Terry Crews for Luke Cage just seems... wrong.FogHornG36 said:You make him John Stewart and i will go see that movie...
In marvel world, i would love to see him play as luke cage
OT: Clearly he will be playing Martian Manhunter, and the magic word is Oreo. Dude can't get enough of 'em.
In Kingdom Come, Batson is shown to be indistinguishable from Captain Marvel when he's grown up. I know that's not entirely canon, but Marvel does clearly resemble an older Batson. Plus I'm assuming they'd have to change Batson too, as him changing from the proper Batson into The Rock would be all kinds of odd.JimB said:Captain Marvel is not Billy Batson; or at least, he is not Billy Batson's appearance. He is a wizard's spell that so happens to look human.elvor0 said:Well considering Billy Batson is the quintessential embodiment Americana suburbia, it is a bit off.
But not against people of colour. It's against the concept of them changing a character, the specific race of the actor is inconsequential. It's not about racism, because the same complaints would obviously be levelled if they changed the race of anyone. The point is, they're pre-defined characters, some of whom are 70 years old, which people don't wish to be changed.JimB said:They have something against a dark-skinned person playing a character whose race is in no way a defining nor even interesting component.elvor0 said:People don't make up a stink because they've got something against dark skinned people, they kick up a stick because it's supposed to be adapting defined characters and Captain Marvel isn't black.
But they're not "impersonating" them. What I said isn't quite the same as what you're saying. If it's okay to cast white characters with black actors, then should it not also be okay to do the reverse? It is the 21st century. I know Hollywood has had a history of racism, the whole world has, but if you want equality then races need to be treated /equally/. Which means that it should be perfectly okay to cast a black character with a white actor. But they don't because people would cry racism, when in reality they're doing the same thing but in reverse.JimB said:Mirroring an action does not make it equivalent. That only works if you deny that social context has any relevance. When Hollywood develops a history of casting people of color to impersonate white people for the sake of playing white roles at the expense of white actors, then it will be the same thing.elvor0 said:You think they'd have the balls or get away with casting the Falcon as a white dude?
Well okay no, I don't have any proof, and saying "well of couse they're not going to say that because then it's obvious that they're doing to fill a quota" doesn't exactly disprove your answer, or solidify my initial point. But c'mon, token black dude exists as an expression for a reason. And like I said, it's not like there ain't characters he could portray just as well that do fit his appearance. Why change existing ones?JimB said:I need a citation for this assertion that they hired the Rock because he's black(-ish) and not because he's physically huge, has a goofy grin, and is a popular draw.elvor0 said:DC are already floundering in adapting stuff with any degree of success; they should stick to the established material, rather than changing defined characters to fill minority quotas.
So why don't we see any of those, if they're just going for whoever is good for the role? There's black and latino actors who could play the character of Wonder Woman waaaaaay better than Gal Gadot, I still wouldn't pick them because WW isn't black or latino. They're universally known characters, even the general public would respond with: "What the fuck? Batman isn't black, get outta here!" With the exception of Johnny Storm, who I don't agree with either, it's less known characters that get changes like these. Which shows that rather than trying to pick who they think are the best "actors" for the role, they're actually trying to maximize damage control by picking characters the least amount of people will notice changes to. The point is they /wouldn't/ change the race of a big gun, but they don't care about it for the lesser known characters.JimB said:Given that they never said the point is racial diversity--you're the one who said that, not them--I'm not sure what your point is.elvor0 said:If they really wanted to diversify, we'd see black Batman, Latino Spider Man or Asian Wonder Woman in the films.
It makes it even sillier when Black Adam still shouts "SHAZAM!" Damn you Captain Mar-Vel! *shakes fist!*JimB said:Damn right. Shazam is the wizard's name, not Captain Marvel's.elvor0 said:Also, no matter how much DC insists Captain Marvels name has changed, I refuse, refuse I say! It was his name first!
I love Kingdom Come, but it is not a canon story, and we cannot assume that what's true in a book that has "Elseworlds" printed on the bottom corner of the cover is true in the main universe, let alone in whatever mishmash of DCU and Nu52 the movie will be set in.elvor0 said:In Kingdom Come, Batson is shown to be indistinguishable from Captain Marvel when he's grown up. I know that's not entirely canon, but Marvel does clearly resemble an older Batson.
Magic is odd. I don't see why a little white kid can't turn into a warrior of whatever genetic ethnicity a wizard wants to turn him into. I kind of image them going the route they went in the last He-Man cartoon series and saying he takes on the form of a specific warrior of ancient times yadda yadda yadda.elvor0 said:Plus I'm assuming they'd have to change Batson too, as him changing from the proper Batson into the Rock would be all kinds of odd.
No, just against people of color trying to play a role that they disapprove of based on his color.elvor0 said:But not against people of colour.
First of all, I am extremely gratified to see you say "whom." Well done.elvor0 said:The point is, they're pre-defined characters, some of whom are 70 years old, which people don't wish to be changed.
Ah, I understand. Yes, ideally, it should be okay; but it isn't. We in America, at least, have not achieved that level of equality. I assume by your spelling that you're English, so maybe that's something that can happen where you live, but for us? No. Not when someone like Dwayne McDuffie can point out that putting three black people in a movie makes it "a black movie" that directors and editors will have to change to make acceptable for a white audience.elvor0 said:If it's okay to cast white characters with black actors, then should it not also be okay to do the reverse?
I have never said "equality" before you brought it up. I object to equality as a general rule, particularly in debates. The word I would have chosen is "equity;" equality of opportunities, not equality of treatment. Let people be treated differently according to their abilities, capacities, and status. I only want everyone to have the opportunity to be treated appropriately according to those things, not equally across the board when people are not equal.elvor0 said:I know there's still issues, and some people still feel raw (and so they should), but if you give special treatment just to tide people over, then it's ignoring the issue; you can't want equality and then give perks to certain people, because that's not equality.
No argument from me, but personally, I wonder how many people know Dwayne Johnson isn't white. I became aware of him through a friend's obsession with wrestling, and no one I was ever exposed to referenced his race. Where I live, that's generally because they think white is the only race not worth commenting on. I obviously can't prove this, particularly after Family Guy did a two-minute joke about his race (because the people I know who like wrestling generally like Family Guy too, so the pool is muddied), but I get the feeling a lot of people think he's just a tan white dude with a kind of weird facial structure.elvor0 said:But c'mon, token black dude exists as an expression for a reason.
I would guess it's because Captain Marvel in the movies is always going to be a different creature from Captain Marvel in the comics, so why waste time drawing arbitrary lines about what changes are okay and what aren't? Why not let a very light-skinned black-ish person play the equivalent of a magical elf in a white cape?elvor0 said:Why change existing ones?
Oh, I never said they pick who's best for the role without ever considering race. I just said you're attributing to the makers of the Captain Marvel movie, as well as the movies of all the other franchises you just named, motivations they have never claimed for themselves.elvor0 said:So why don't we see any of those, if they're just going for whoever is good for the role?
It occurs to me that casting a black-ish dude as a villain named Black Adam might be a touch on the nose.elvor0 said:It makes it even sillier when Black Adam still shouts "SHAZAM!"
Idris Elba should be John Stewart.FogHornG36 said:You make him John Stewart and i will go see that movie...
In marvel world, i would love to see him play as luke cage