Wizards of the Coast has revealed MtG's first trans character

VanQ

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Oct 23, 2009
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SecondPrize said:
TheKasp said:
Redryhno said:
Ok, so there's a trans character...who cares? Are they going to be as broken as most of the recent Plainswalkers(Everyone knows about Jace of course)or as that one Khan that instantly kills all creatures who block him?
It is a 2R mana card, 3/2 with frist strike and an additional ability that seems mildly usefull. Decent value I'd guess.



But of course the only thing anybody cares about is a mild silly statement against trans. You never disappoint in your predictability OT, keep up the good work!
Well, I ignored other transphobic remarks, that one was just really easy and ripe for the picking. And funny enough, taking 8 replies for a slur to appear is quite mild for R&P and Escapist trends to not be that kind to anything non-cisgendered.
I haven't gone into the comprehensive rules in a long time, mostly because I stopped playing years ago. Does the whenever A, WSatD attacks trigger allow for one one use of the active ability or can you use the same attack trigger multiple times?
It can be triggered for the stated mana cost whenever she taps to attack. So if you have a way to untap her and allow her to attack twice each combat step then you could activate it twice assuming you have the mana free to do so.
 

VanQ

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TheKasp said:
VanQ said:
VanQ, let me be frank:

If I had an issue with your post I would've quoted you. My assessment was rather simple: Some guy used a slur, most likely because he doesn't know it is considered a slur by trans people, but kept the rest of his post rather respectfull. Yeah, I refered to "trap" as one example of transphobia, but unlike people may assume I use this statement not as some kind of judgement but simply a description. Some of my views can be described as transphobic simply due to my lack of exposure and experience with trans people (something that changed over the last few months but still needs improvement).

What I discussed with the other person was the meaning of "trap". I used the most common use I know from my years on chan boards, the current use online and the statements of trans people about it.

Clreic decided to bring you into it, I did not. You gave me an opening with a poorly phrased definition of trans that layed open the interpretation that you don't consider transsexuals to be anything more than "gender they are born with playing pretend to be the opposite". Because frankly, in the context you used "trap" and your own bloody definition I question why you even used it here. It is not a trap by your definition. It is not born man that looks like a woman. It is a woman born in a mans body.

So let me lay down my weapons and lets just... not do that. If I wanted to discuss your first post with you I would've quoted you.

Edit: Also a tip: Don't insult people.
Yeah, well I got a nice big fat warning out of this conversation. But my definition for what a trap is has always been the same. Male body that looks like a female. That's it. Nothing more or less. And as I said, Alesha is a card I own and am building a deck around. And I thought Alesha was a woman from the art. The only reason I know otherwise is because of the story in the OP. So maybe next time don't just assume someone is being phobic and use them as an example.
 

CrystalShadow

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Apr 11, 2009
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cleric of the order said:
CrystalShadow said:
Especially asserting stuff about 'primitive' cultures and medical intervention.
There's a rather simple thing that's been possible for thousands of years after all, if you intervene soon enough. Doesn't quite do the trick as well as modern options, and it only really works for men, but... You'd end up with someone that looks pretty feminine, if they survived it anyway...
We used to do it quite regularly for entirely different reasons.
Basically, if you castrate someone before they hit puberty, they really won't develop much in the way of masculine traits.
And while it's a very risky thing to do (the shock of it can kill someone pretty quickly), it's been possible pretty much for as long as we've had knives...

So yeah... Sure... Someone in a 'primitive' culture, without access to modern medicine definitely couldn't look feminine... >_>
huh that was pretty interesting, I never thought of that.
Thanks.
Of course that would mean she'd have to have been a eunuch and identify as trans, but weirder things have happened
It's actually been incredibly common for the The '3rd gender' group in India to basically cut off their own genitals, and it was known that priests of a certain Roman Goddess were doing it thousands of years ago.
(The men that did it weren't necessarily transgender in the modern sense, but they took on the roles of priestesses and wore women's clothing, and such, and again, were expected to cut off their own genitals )

There's also accounts of native american tribes which recognise the existence of a third gender had special saddles designed to destroy the testicles of the rider...

It's also known that some plants have similar (though weaker and less predictable) effects as the hormones we use these days. (Though I have no idea if any primitive societies had any understanding of this.)

It's definitely not as simple as saying nothing at all could be done in the past. What we have in modern times is far more controlled. More refined surgery, but above all, the ability to mess with hormones directly, and in a somewhat controlled manner...
 

mecegirl

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Ugh... I probably shouldn't bring up the Trap thing... While I understand the the term's creators didn't mean for it to be a negative one it still has a negative connotation because of the non anime related meaning of the word.

The characters themselves rarely do anything to ensnare anyone besides looking the way they do. And ensare isn't even the right word for it...they just look the way they do. The only time I've seen one of these characters be a love interest is in a shonen ai manga. So there is no actually trapping going on...A protagonist may go "whoa I thought you were a girl" everyone laughs and the story moves on. The watchers may find themselves attracted to the character design only to find out that its not a female character. But the character isn't trying to trick anyone, and often they will readily admit that they are male. But even if they did want others to think that they are female they still aren't trying make someone else sexually attracted to them.

So it ends up being a situation like the term friendzoned. Saying someone friendzoned you puts the blame on someone else. It implies that it was done deliberately, when in reality its is often the person in the friendzones actions that caused the situation. But with an added real life application that is very tragic. Transgenered people are often abused and even killed because some cisgendered person felt that they were tricked. All despite the fact that the transgendered person did nothing but present themselves as their true gender. They didn't approach anyone or try to seduce anyone. But they get blamed for someone elses reaction to them. They end up on the receiving end of violence because that's the only way the violent person knows how to reassert their heterosexuality.
 

Lightspeaker

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mecegirl said:
The only time I've seen one of these characters be a love interest is in a shonen ai manga.
I was pretty sure the term is almost universally applied in manga and anime for "guys who just look extremely feminine" and NOT for actual transgendered characters. And the love interest thing happens in some anime series, but not in a "negative" way. More someone falling for how cute they look in the full knowledge they're male.

Source: Certain anime I've been watching in my voyage through crunchyroll's catalogue. >_>
 

Staskala

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TheKasp said:
Frankly, I don't give a rats ass about your anecdotes or opinions. The word is used for effeminate males, crossdressers and transsexuals. It is a slur. That is all the magic behind it.
I'm afraid it is you who isn't familiar with the terminology, "trap" is indeed one of the words used by the cross-dressing community (i.e. people who enjoy dressing up as the other gender by don't actually identify as transsexual or even homosexual), both by the cross-dressers and the people who are into it. It is absolutely not a slur and despite some transsexuals offense at it has nothing to do with them.

It is well known that transgenders and transsexuals aren't very fond of transvestites who they consider "just fetishists" and propagators of negative stereotypes about them, but is there really any reason to get as militant about the issue as you? I suggest you actually read up on it and don't just insult people who disagree with you.

It's not like I blame you for not seeing through the finer distinctions of the various transX groups and their enmity towards each other, but asking for a marginalized group's erasure on behalf of another marginalized group seems like a fairly silly thing to do.
 

cleric of the order

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TheKasp said:
I -> don't give a shit <-
Not to be brief but yes, you have made that clear.
We've been here before, we've seen this room and we've walked this floor.
Especially since VanQ decided to use his literal skills to dig his own bloody grave.
No, he said something informally.
Something that you, in your subjective opinion found disagreeable.
It is not necessarily disagreeable.
It is not objectively or even commonly thought of as a slur. Evidence -> urban dictionary does not refer to it as a slur
By your admission, it does not target solely the people that you suggested. -> I.E it refers to effeminate males currently passing for male. Androgyny =/= trans. Infact I'd argue it's rather rude to assume all trans people could be lumped under trap anyway.
It is closely linked to Bridget a effeminate MALE (sex)that IDENTIFIES as a man(gender http://guilty-gear.wikia.com/wiki/Bridget) and is not trans, and the admiral Akbar line IT's a trap (likely from early /v/'s GulityGear shitpo-threads). It has not been made to solely focus trans.
It's evolution was not from the intent of shaming or insulting transexuals but rather as a inside joke to laugh at anons and warn people about androgynous charterers. (it's assumed to be a part of the greater shitpost culture of/v/, /a/ and /b/)
His later back and forth with you indicated that he saw it as and i quote
VanQ said:
A trap is just a dude that looks like a girl. That's it. Seriously calm the fuck down.
which he further went on to dictate to his determent that this was only his meaning.
clearly showing he intended to use the dictionary definition of this neatly defined slang term.
Alesha fits the definition of a trap by appearing incredibly feminine, many people I know would have thought her sex was female if it weren't for that piece of writing to which this thread is dedicated towards not dissimulator to much like Bridget.
Thus He was well within the realm of accepted usage, had no intention of using it poorly. Anyone adding meanings or ideas to his words beyond the meanings laid out by common tongue and the evolution of the word has done it for him.

TL:DR, he did nothing wrong. you added your own meaning and found him wrong. Prove that trap is universally a slur or even intended to be an insult (on at least a large scale) and that he intended to say that in that manner and then maybe we can talk.

TheKasp said:
If he wants to keep on using slurs and showing a basic lack of empathy without being challenged on
Woa, Slow down Maurice. on empathy, shouldn't you be a bit empathic towards his more liberal tongue? We have all said things that were rude or we regret but what gives you the right to chastise him? Lest you be strung up by your own tongue.
Challenged? do you know what you do when you do that? you anger people, you give them cause to rationalize things. You actually drive them deeper into their ways because he's going to leave saying "man that guy, he was a real nerd i did nothing wrong....etc,etc"
and that poor emotion that disgruntlement EVEN if completely unjustified will fester. And you've made him a little more bigoted. But if you follow the proverb of Honey and flies you can understand that person, you can help them. Things like this is cultural no? Is it their fault if they are raised in a time of bigotry? will it be your fault once centuries later you are inevitably found to be a bigot for not supporting some other group that might not even be recognized yet?
Be nice for heaven's sake and maybe you can change the world. You get he community you deserve you know.

it he can go back to his chan bubble.
uh
I can, from experience tell you, trap is not the chan term for trans person. Trans or the actual slur (addition of y) is the slur.
Also I can say that the chan is a meritocratic, anarchy. I've seen people get beaten down by people in much the same manner as you have done over the same reasons and the same topic. Simply, if you say stupid shit. prepare to get it slapped.
Also I hate doing this because it feels underhanded but didn't you say something about ascribing terminology to a website they described.

TheKasp said:
So you used a term that, in your opinion describes an effeminate male to describe a trangendered person? So, transgendered is just "man pretend to be woman" thing now?

Seriously, you guys make it too easy to rip your bloody terminology apart. Use a fucking minute to think about what you just said there.
no. you really didn't.
He did not lead any of those things, he simply said it is a dude that looks like a lady.
let me give you that in deductive forms.
>if alesha is effeminate(in regards that she can pass for a woman easily) then she is a trap.
>she is effeminate.
>thus she is a trap.
It's iron clad.
You...kinda just well....Jumped to conclusions as to his meaning, I don't think i can reduce this to standard form, I've never been good with this shit but just. no. just no.
 

cleric of the order

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Gundam GP01 said:
absolutely right.
however it is true that if they created a new attack step it would work like how one can infinitely chain breathe of fury

with hero of blade hold or splinter twin


hypothetically it's possible to chain her infinitely with this spell as well
as long as you have two other creatures
 

mecegirl

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Lightspeaker said:
mecegirl said:
The only time I've seen one of these characters be a love interest is in a shonen ai manga.
I was pretty sure the term is almost universally applied in manga and anime for "guys who just look extremely feminine" and NOT for actual transgendered characters. And the love interest thing happens in some anime series, but not in a "negative" way. More someone falling for how cute they look in the full knowledge they're male.

Source: Certain anime I've been watching in my voyage through crunchyroll's catalogue. >_>
I know that. And I never said that the term was used in anime for transgendered characters. Those anime series are generally in the shonen ai genre so that is why its not shown in a negative way.

Still doesn't explain away the use of the term trap for these characters. The word by itself has a meaning that implies trickery and deceit. It implies that someone orchestrated something in order to capture/deceive someone. Just look at the synonyms for the word trap, none of them are really positive.

When you look at how these characters behave where is the trap? What's the pitfall? Where is the deceit? That someone may think that a male character is female and fall in love with them? But what then when the feminine looking male character doesn't want the male protagonists affections? These "trap" characters are generally just minding their own business. They may behave in feminine ways or look feminine themselves, but its not a ruse or a set up in order to make an assumed heterosexual protagonist fall in love with them, and thus its not a trap. So why call the characters traps in the first place? Any attraction that other characters in the show, or even fans of the show, feel towards this character comes from an internal source.

But even if you take the fall in love part out of the equation..What is the trap? So someone thinks a male character was a female one. What next? The term trap still doesn't fit because the word trap by itself has a negative connotation. Does this character enjoy tricking people so that's why they present themselves in a feminine way? Or are they just naturally cute/pretty that way (these characters generally wear gender neutral clothing and the protagonist confusion is later played for laughs)? Or are they like the male lead in Jellyfish princess who looks damn good in woman's clothing so he might as well rock it. In most anime I see the second and third options and can't really remember a situation where a character dressed up a woman specifically to trick someone unless they were going undercover. But them dressing up wasn't a day to day occurrence in an effort to trick those around them.
 

ForumSafari

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>Trans Magic character
>It's not Ashiok


Thank fucking god, it looks like people are finally looking its' card art properly.
 

cleric of the order

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CrystalShadow said:
cleric of the order said:
CrystalShadow said:
Especially asserting stuff about 'primitive' cultures and medical intervention.
There's a rather simple thing that's been possible for thousands of years after all, if you intervene soon enough. Doesn't quite do the trick as well as modern options, and it only really works for men, but... You'd end up with someone that looks pretty feminine, if they survived it anyway...
We used to do it quite regularly for entirely different reasons.
Basically, if you castrate someone before they hit puberty, they really won't develop much in the way of masculine traits.
And while it's a very risky thing to do (the shock of it can kill someone pretty quickly), it's been possible pretty much for as long as we've had knives...

So yeah... Sure... Someone in a 'primitive' culture, without access to modern medicine definitely couldn't look feminine... >_>
huh that was pretty interesting, I never thought of that.
Thanks.
Of course that would mean she'd have to have been a eunuch and identify as trans, but weirder things have happened

It's actually been incredibly common for the The '3rd gender' group in India to basically cut off their own genitals, and it was known that priests of a certain Roman Goddess were doing it thousands of years ago.
(The men that did it weren't necessarily transgender in the modern sense, but they took on the roles of priestesses and wore women's clothing, and such, and again, were expected to cut off their own genitals
I am less surprised by that then I really should, it fits the Romans quite well with all their bluster about sex and sexuality. I'm going to look into that, It's always fun to see how the roman culture mutated as it absorbed more and more cultures. was this a republic era goddess or a later empire goddess?

There's also accounts of native american tribes which recognise the existence of a third gender had special saddles designed to destroy the testicles of the rider...
Yes the Two-spirited of the... oh god no.
That sounds more painful the then hunnic saddle degeneration and ritual scarring.

It's also known that some plants have similar (though weaker and less predictable) effects as the hormones we use these days. (Though I have no idea if any primitive societies had any understanding of this.)=12321332131

It's definitely not as simple as saying nothing at all could be done in the past. What we have in modern times is far more controlled. More refined surgery, but above all, the ability to mess with hormones directly, and in a somewhat controlled manner...
true. I wouldn't be surprised if the ol' hunter gatherers had found ways through plant use to balance hormones. They have managed to reasonably safely remove bits of skull with nothing more then jagged rocks which seems far more taxing. Humans are insanely fascinating creatures sometimes.

On a side note But i have to wonder at what lengths has endocrinology (i think that's the term) advanced on this subjects. I mean from what I've heard post op trans have some really saddening suicide rates or at least that's at least what I've been told. And I have to wonder if it might have something to do with a large hormonal dis-balance in the post op drugs or something (I've already been told by a trans friend how they could kill her in her sleep and I wonder if the whole thing might be linked).
 

Cowabungaa

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Radical. Nice to see some variation and such for a change.

And to boot, Alesha apparently makes for an awesome Commander in the new Tiny Leader format.
 

CrystalShadow

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cleric of the order said:
CrystalShadow said:
cleric of the order said:
CrystalShadow said:
Especially asserting stuff about 'primitive' cultures and medical intervention.
There's a rather simple thing that's been possible for thousands of years after all, if you intervene soon enough. Doesn't quite do the trick as well as modern options, and it only really works for men, but... You'd end up with someone that looks pretty feminine, if they survived it anyway...
We used to do it quite regularly for entirely different reasons.
Basically, if you castrate someone before they hit puberty, they really won't develop much in the way of masculine traits.
And while it's a very risky thing to do (the shock of it can kill someone pretty quickly), it's been possible pretty much for as long as we've had knives...

So yeah... Sure... Someone in a 'primitive' culture, without access to modern medicine definitely couldn't look feminine... >_>
huh that was pretty interesting, I never thought of that.
Thanks.
Of course that would mean she'd have to have been a eunuch and identify as trans, but weirder things have happened

It's actually been incredibly common for the The '3rd gender' group in India to basically cut off their own genitals, and it was known that priests of a certain Roman Goddess were doing it thousands of years ago.
(The men that did it weren't necessarily transgender in the modern sense, but they took on the roles of priestesses and wore women's clothing, and such, and again, were expected to cut off their own genitals
I am less surprised by that then I really should, it fits the Romans quite well with all their bluster about sex and sexuality. I'm going to look into that, It's always fun to see how the roman culture mutated as it absorbed more and more cultures. was this a republic era goddess or a later empire goddess?
I saw a documentary about it once, and my memory being what it is, I have a hard time remembering the details you'd need to know to find it back.

However, based on this: http://www.willsworld.org/priests.html - It would appear to have been Cybele and Attis

It's really tricky when you're dealing with your own less than perfect memory, but what the article describes does seem to gel with what I saw in the documentary...

There's also accounts of native american tribes which recognise the existence of a third gender had special saddles designed to destroy the testicles of the rider...
Yes the Two-spirited of the... oh god no.
That sounds more painful the then hunnic saddle degeneration and ritual scarring.

It's also known that some plants have similar (though weaker and less predictable) effects as the hormones we use these days. (Though I have no idea if any primitive societies had any understanding of this.)=12321332131

It's definitely not as simple as saying nothing at all could be done in the past. What we have in modern times is far more controlled. More refined surgery, but above all, the ability to mess with hormones directly, and in a somewhat controlled manner...
true. I wouldn't be surprised if the ol' hunter gatherers had found ways through plant use to balance hormones. They have managed to reasonably safely remove bits of skull with nothing more then jagged rocks which seems far more taxing. Humans are insanely fascinating creatures sometimes.

On a side note But i have to wonder at what lengths has endocrinology (i think that's the term) advanced on this subjects. I mean from what I've heard post op trans have some really saddening suicide rates or at least that's at least what I've been told. And I have to wonder if it might have something to do with a large hormonal dis-balance in the post op drugs or something (I've already been told by a trans friend how they could kill her in her sleep and I wonder if the whole thing might be linked).
It's hard to say. A lot of the things endocrinologists know have little directly to do with transgender care. In fact, because it's such a small minority of people that it applies to, the research on it is pretty limited, and all the drugs involved are all 'off-label' uses, meaning they've never officially been tested or certified for this purpose.

They range from patches designed for menopausal women, heart medication known to have anti-androgenic side effects, birth control pills, prostate cancer treatments, and many other things...

There certainly appear to be some risks, blood clots seem to be the major thing that concerns doctors who prescribe them. I've not particularly heard too many scare stories about hormones, but it stands to reason they could cause many issues given that they cause considerable physical changes, and probably also subtle behavioural ones too. (Saying that last part out loud upsets some people, but it seems pretty difficult to deny. It's just very difficult to unravel the cause for such changes, so saying they are hormonal, while likely to be true in many cases, is very difficult to demonstrate conclusively)

Obviously, whether we really know what we are doing these days, and if it's really any better than what was known about in the past... Who can really say that either.

Clearly, it is quite obvious that a lot of the hormonal treatment for transgender patients is little more than educated guesswork, inference, and observation of people who have been given the treatment.
Conducting actual formal trials for this use, given what hormones do to a person, would seem somewhat unethical.
But the other side of that is that effectively speaking everyone that takes them is basically an experiment of sorts...

The long-term health consequences are especially unclear, and we haven't even really been doing it long enough to really know what it means later in life for someone to have been taking them for decades...
There's not enough information to work with.

Same with surgical outcomes. Follow-up checks on the consequences seem to be kind of rare, except in cases where something goes badly wrong and needs to be fixed.

When the subject of people regretting the procedure comes up for instance, we don't have reliable information on to what degree it is actual genuine regret of the transition itself, or rather regret related to the inadequacies of the procedures available.
And given how prone people that are against it are to jumping on absolutely anything which vaguely hints that some people may 'change their minds', that's problematic.
Then again, with such people you seem to find the reasoning that if 1 in 100 people regrets what they did it's irrefutable proof that it's a bad idea for everyone, and shouldn't be allowed at all...

But... That's a different subject, and one I'm really not in the mood to discuss... Don't even know why I brought it up... >_>
 

Thaluikhain

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Huh, a discussion on whether or not the word "trap" has a negative connotation. I think it might be a bit of a giveaway that the word is "trap".

cleric of the order said:
But if you follow the proverb of Honey and flies you can understand that person, you can help them.
More flies with honey? Yeah, that's an argument you should avoid making, for all sorts of reasons.

cleric of the order said:
Is it their fault if they are raised in a time of bigotry?
How they react when they are called out on it is.

cleric of the order said:
Be nice for heaven's sake and maybe you can change the world.
Only, this doesn't happen. Anyone saying, in effect, "I care about the issues facing group X, but only if I am allowed to determine how these issues are discussed" doesn't care about the issues facing group X. All "being nice" does is allow people wishing to ignore the issue to continue to do so in comfort.
 

cleric of the order

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thaluikhain said:
Huh, a discussion on whether or not the word "trap" has a negative connotation. I think it might be a bit of a giveaway that the word is "trap".
Yes and no, I was arguing it was directed at transsexuals directly but things kinda went weird

More flies with honey? Yeah, that's an argument you should avoid making, for all sorts of reasons.
Then let me rephrase it, you don't pull a stubborn old ass out of trench by yelling at it. I know stubborness, I know prideful people, when you go swinging around "calling hem out on their bullshit" as you would say all you do is piss 'em off. And someone that's mad because some "upstart lil' fuck" like me (I've been called similar things in my life) is telling them how to run their lives or "policing"their long held views is only going to entrench them on principle. Trust me I've dealt with a lot of these types of people, hell they're family.

[quote"]
How they react when they are called out on it is.
[/quote]
Well you have me there I'm a stoic and on principle i tend to agree. but others aren't nor is my beliefs self evident. Anyway what do you really expect but negativity when you call people out on it. Becuase in all fairness there is nothing soft more often then not about calling people out. Often I see it used as an excuse to bully the person, treat them like utter shit before they have a chance to respond. Not to say all so called "calling out" begins and ends like this. But if the term itself is used I'd say it almost by nature is undiplomatic. I mean seriously "calling out" it sounds like one is trying to reduce the person they want to help to a child. To treat them like an opponent and a lesser. And that's the worst thing you can do to help people.
How people respond to emotion, and reflect it was the only useful thing my dad taught me as a youth. and people reflect animosity even if they don't understand why. then they make reasons, justify it. and then yo have this tower of bad reasoning to help cover up a grudge.
Only, this doesn't happen.
I have my method you have yours. I would argue that calling out is authoritarian, as it bludgeons and breaks a person rather then helping them see the truth rationally and organically. If what they are doing is wrong then it can easily be undone. Lies cower from wisdom.

Anyone saying, in effect, "I care about the issues facing group X, but only if I am allowed to determine how these issues are discussed" Doesn't care about the issues facing group X.
Lil question. how does that relate to my argument. I think here we may have a break down in communication. My argument was in order to stop someone that is actively resisting x social movement or resenting x demographic the best method is to be polite. For example, I know a couple people in my life and in family that are somewhat racist. Shocking I know, considering they are from up in the rural north. I was able to understand the reasons behind their belief (like for one cousin that hated Italians because he was largely abused by them for most of his life.) and from there treat it (introduced him to some nice Italian people eventually, without forcing him and got him to understand yaddayadda yadda you know the after school special shit actually can happen). The less saccharine form of it is pulling apart the reasoning sociologically. say something hinges on a bad moment or an assumption and you break the assumption over time with surgical strikes. It can be slow but a lot of "-phobes" (which are really substitutes for "-isms" these days) are focused on a general idea that has been hammered into their head and mental process through often no fault of their own.
Attacking them on the bases of this thought attacks the whole mental frame work, while changing it, causes ad natural shift.
It's the difference between flipping a table or loosing at jenga, the later can actually make people happy in the short term.
But that's just my methodology and ideology.
All "being nice" does is allow people wishing to ignore the issue to continue to do so in comfort.
So?
At least they aren't against you.
When one offers no Resistance then why does it matter.
Even if they are grossly racist and they fail to heed those warning all they will do is have it come back and bite them in the butt later.
Back when i was an activist of sorts for the 350 movement people barely cared and to me it seemed as if it was vital for the survival of the world.
It is, it still is.
But, it won't be immediate. People have always been focused on their own desires and will do so till they day we all die.
It's unfortunately human nature.
I mean seriously think about it, think why
You can lead a horse to water but if you beat him till he drinks he'll hate you forever
 

cleric of the order

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CrystalShadow said:
I saw a documentary about it once, and my memory being what it is, I have a hard time remembering the details you'd need to know to find it back.

However, based on this: http://www.willsworld.org/priests.html - It would appear to have been Cybele and Attis

It's really tricky when you're dealing with your own less than perfect memory, but what the article describes does seem to gel with what I saw in the documentary...
That seems a bit scattered, the Romano-Christians are perhaps one of the few groups I'd have ever known to hate male anal sex more then anything.
But I will admit that's some jungian shit i can get behind right there, I'll have to give more deeply into it and it's resources when i have a moment.
Though I am a little concerned about that Carthage passage, any thing relating to the culture or recorded history of the Romans or Greeks. I do remember a similar suggestion that they were notorious for child sacrifice which later archeologists have proven (or at least attempted to do so) otherwise. It doesn't undermine the rest of the piece, just leaves me a little uneasy.

I've not particularly heard too many scare stories about hormones, but it stands to reason they could cause many issues given that they cause considerable physical changes, and probably also subtle behavioural ones too. (Saying that last part out loud upsets some people, but it seems pretty difficult to deny. It's just very difficult to unravel the cause for such changes, so saying they are hormonal, while likely to be true in many cases, is very difficult to demonstrate conclusively)
I find it odd that people would have problem with that idea. I mean, I was and still am a large dualist but even i can at least dig way to reductionists like Prf Pinker when they say "the mind is what the brain does." and with that in mind, it's not hard to at least draw that changes to the mind chemically physically or the like does affect it in some extent. But i think it's more in line with the people that believe gender is solely cultural, I personally am not so convinced as I am not been a large supporter of tabula rasa, and by extension the following. Though with sufficient evidence....
More interesting is perhaps with trans people specifically. i figure it might be a bit different, I don't understand the full scope of gender Diaspora's affect on the brain or hormonal levels but I suspect there might some variance. Then again it might function like ASD (which seems to me to be the culmination of a collection of dominate traits)(warning these are opinions are purely speculative, I do not know enough about biology for it to be sound. do not accept, internalize, eat, converse directly with, look directly at or attempt to base jump using these speculative opinions)

Obviously, whether we really know what we are doing these days, and if it's really any better than what was known about in the past... Who can really say that either.

Clearly, it is quite obvious that a lot of the hormonal treatment for transgender patients is little more than educated guesswork, inference, and observation of people who have been given the treatment.
Conducting actual formal trials for this use, given what hormones do to a person, would seem somewhat unethical.
But the other side of that is that effectively speaking everyone that takes them is basically an experiment of sorts...
It's not just for trans people, practice like this is from what I hear common across the board. A couple of my higher functioning aspie friends have talked about specific drugs they talk for their co-morbids and I know at a handful of schizophrenics I know vaguely have to work to find the right cocktail of drugs and every so often change said cocktail because of a reason some reason or another.
Not a good sign but trying to control the chaos of the human mind and body maybe beyond our grasp at the present moment.

The long-term health consequences are especially unclear, and we haven't even really been doing it long enough to really know what it means later in life for someone to have been taking them for decades...
There's not enough information to work with.
Yeah, heck even then any findings could be discounted on poor chemical choices. only time can really tell us much.

Same with surgical outcomes. Follow-up checks on the consequences seem to be kind of rare, except in cases where something goes badly wrong and needs to be fixed.

When the subject of people regretting the procedure comes up for instance, we don't have reliable information on to what degree it is actual genuine regret of the transition itself, or rather regret related to the inadequacies of the procedures available.
That's why they have the screening no? that's what a person I know talked about that when they confided me over their plan to get the operation. They, later opted out of it but it serves as a good catch for people not committed or unsuitable (in that they might be at greater risk of physical harm) for such a procedure. (though that might just be fore my country)

Captcha "blinded by science"
Shit when did that happen, I've been a hippy humanities type of guy most of my life does this mean I'll have to get a job in the stem fields?