Wizards of the Coast has revealed MtG's first trans character

[CrystalShadow]

I've not particularly heard too many scare stories about hormones, but it stands to reason they could cause many issues given that they cause considerable physical changes, and probably also subtle behavioural ones too. (Saying that last part out loud upsets some people, but it seems pretty difficult to deny. It's just very difficult to unravel the cause for such changes, so saying they are hormonal, while likely to be true in many cases, is very difficult to demonstrate conclusively)

I find it odd that people would have problem with that idea. I mean, I was and still am a large dualist but even i can at least dig way to reductionists like Prf Pinker when they say "the mind is what the brain does." and with that in mind, it's not hard to at least draw that changes to the mind chemically physically or the like does affect it in some extent. But i think it's more in line with the people that believe gender is solely cultural, I personally am not so convinced as I am not been a large supporter of tabula rasa, and by extension the following. Though with sufficient evidence....
More interesting is perhaps with trans people specifically. i figure it might be a bit different, I don't understand the full scope of gender Diaspora's affect on the brain or hormonal levels but I suspect there might some variance. Then again it might function like ASD (which seems to me to be the culmination of a collection of dominate traits)(warning these are opinions are purely speculative, I do not know enough about biology for it to be sound. do not accept, internalize, eat, converse directly with, look directly at or attempt to base jump using these speculative opinions)

Yeah, it seems to come largely from people that have some kind of interest (wether for ideological, political or other reasons) in maintaining the idea that everything about a person's behaviour comes from developmental and social pressures. They seem to intensely dislike the notion that there may be some innate things, and it's especially common that people don't like it when it's about sex-linked traits in particular.

I can sort of understand why, because when you go down the road of ascribing behavioural traits based on sex you end up with all that nonsense about why girls can't play games, or why guys don't do housework or look after kids, and all that nonsense...

As if the acknowledging some behavioural differences inevitably leads to rampant sexism and segregation...

It's a bit worrying that people have a hard time finding a balance with this.

Obviously, whether we really know what we are doing these days, and if it's really any better than what was known about in the past... Who can really say that either.

Clearly, it is quite obvious that a lot of the hormonal treatment for transgender patients is little more than educated guesswork, inference, and observation of people who have been given the treatment.
Conducting actual formal trials for this use, given what hormones do to a person, would seem somewhat unethical.
But the other side of that is that effectively speaking everyone that takes them is basically an experiment of sorts...

It's not just for trans people, practice like this is from what I hear common across the board. A couple of my higher functioning aspie friends have talked about specific drugs they talk for their co-morbids and I know at a handful of schizophrenics I know vaguely have to work to find the right cocktail of drugs and every so often change said cocktail because of a reason some reason or another.
Not a good sign but trying to control the chaos of the human mind and body maybe beyond our grasp at the present moment.

Mmm. When the companies making the drugs don't even want to acknowledge some of the things they end up being used for, you know you're in very unclear territory.
These things have other consequences too. They influence what insurance and government agencies are willing to provide funding for.
And that can vary enormously from country to country...

Also ends up being politically controversial for some reason whether this kind of stuff should be funded or not. But that's part of the wider argument people have about the nature of the problem, and how it should be treated.
(Some persist in claiming it should be treated using methods we know not to work, which is... Depressing, to say the least. To be so tied to the ideological position that it's wrong that you refuse to acknowledge what the practical results of decades of medical treatment have told us...)

The long-term health consequences are especially unclear, and we haven't even really been doing it long enough to really know what it means later in life for someone to have been taking them for decades...
There's not enough information to work with.

Yeah, heck even then any findings could be discounted on poor chemical choices. only time can really tell us much.

Same with surgical outcomes. Follow-up checks on the consequences seem to be kind of rare, except in cases where something goes badly wrong and needs to be fixed.

When the subject of people regretting the procedure comes up for instance, we don't have reliable information on to what degree it is actual genuine regret of the transition itself, or rather regret related to the inadequacies of the procedures available.

That's why they have the screening no? that's what a person I know talked about that when they confided me over their plan to get the operation. They, later opted out of it but it serves as a good catch for people not committed or unsuitable (in that they might be at greater risk of physical harm) for such a procedure. (though that might just be fore my country)

That's why that screening matters so much. They make it pretty difficult, arguably they go a bit overboard with it, but the basic principle is sound. You have to be sure that you are making a decision like that for the right reasons, because it is basically irreversible.
So it's important people get appropriate help to sort out if it's the right thing for them to do or not...
Unfortunately, that doesn't stop sensationalist news reporting from jumping on any example of it going wrong, and wildly extrapolating what it means about the success of the treatments in general...
From what evidence there is, the success rate is pretty high compared to most medical treatments, so it's a bit disingenuous to jump on every failure and hold it up as proof of how flawed the whole idea is...

Some people... Any excuse to make other people's lives more miserable, just because they have some ideological belief about it somehow...

Captcha "blinded by science"
Shit when did that happen, I've been a hippy humanities type of guy most of my life does this mean I'll have to get a job in the stem fields?[/quote]

lol. Those captcha's sometimes... I don't ever see them though... So it's always observing other people's weird ones...

 

[LetalisK]

Identifying as Trans has always sounded inherently badass to me anyway. Defying what you've been given because you know if your heart that your true identity lives elsewhere. Then you undergo chemical treatments. You know who else undergoes chemical treatments? Space Marines. I rest my case.

Transsexuals are not badass. Somebody who rejects the importance of gender stereotypes, like a man who is working to be a babysitter without bigots assuming he's doing to because he's a pedophile, or a homosexual of either persuasion who feels the same way about a member of their own sex that heterosexuals do about the other? Sure, I can respect that. But I do not respect somebody who is so obsessed with gender stereotypes that when they are presented with proof that it is nonsense, they decide the proof is wrong and needs to be fixed.

you know, I'm going to take a step back, and hope I misread this. What exactly are you trying to say?

If I can take a stab at it, I think he's coming from an extreme progessive viewpoint that sees the problems presented to trans people(and many other issues) not as an issue of biology, but rather one of society and gender stereotypes. It assumes that society clings to gender roles and stereotypes so hard that trans people are those who take the biological route in changing who they are in order to fit the stereotype. It assumes that if society had no gender roles or stereotypes, then trans people would be much more comfortable exhibiting the gender they wish and would not need/want to change their sex and would overall be in a better place, which implies that trans people who are trying to change their sex are actually contributing to the problem themselves.

I think such an idea is possible, but it would be impossible to know and essentially academic.

 

[cleric of the order]

-snip-

Yeah, it seems to come largely from people that have some kind of interest (wether for ideological, political or other reasons) in maintaining the idea that everything about a person's behaviour comes from developmental and social pressures. They seem to intensely dislike the notion that there may be some innate things, and it's especially common that people don't like it when it's about sex-linked traits in particular.

I can sort of understand why, because when you go down the road of ascribing behavioural traits based on sex you end up with all that nonsense about why girls can't play games, or why guys don't do housework or look after kids, and all that nonsense...

As if the acknowledging some behavioral differences inevitably leads to rampant sexism and segregation...
It's a bit worrying that people have a hard time finding a balance with this.

It's rather annoying, personally.
This sort of thing in the long run will likely come back to bite it's own attached assumptions in the butt.
Inevitably an up coming generation or collection of intellectuals will declare the people maintaining that belief passe and while the movement itself slows down with the aging of it's original population it will likely be ripped apart and an good attached to it will likely be thrown to the side, because it was some how tainted by that movement.
More over in the moment this line of thought could be doing more harm then good.
It's likely going to raise at least one set of kids that might be forced to be non gendered, and while it is an interesting experiment, it's also an immoral one.
And while I don't like vouching for the long standing traditionalism I don't know if it is in the best interest of anyone to scrub away perceived gender norms.
Because that in all honesty has replaced chauvinism.
Where you'd have girls can't play sports, we now have there is no physiological difference between boys and girls at all. especially in muscle mass (testosterone from the little i know on the matter is supposed to greatly increase muscle growth), which has come up in conversations I've had on historical military formations with profs to which I've had to respond with logical logistics responses of, for everyone woman you loose on campaign is at least one son you cannot recruit later.
Though in actuality i think given that line combat requires a great amount of strength and endurance which could be easily found in men given testosterone.

-snip-

Mmm. When the companies making the drugs don't even want to acknowledge some of the things they end up being used for, you know you're in very unclear territory.
These things have other consequences too. They influence what insurance and government agencies are willing to provide funding for.
And that can vary enormously from country to country...

Also ends up being politically controversial for some reason whether this kind of stuff should be funded or not. But that's part of the wider argument people have about the nature of the problem, and how it should be treated.
(Some persist in claiming it should be treated using methods we know not to work, which is... Depressing, to say the least. To be so tied to the ideological position that it's wrong that you refuse to acknowledge what the practical results of decades of medical treatment have told us...)

I can name a number of those sorts of things off hand, weird drug testing, unethical practices and the like has produced some really sad tales.
There is perhaps, nothing worse then a lack of professional ethics when someone has power over human life.
It's all fun and games with drug companies until someone mutates horribly.
Or someone is denied the treatment they need.
In a board sense however I can understand discretion in certain fields of research because of political discussion and ideological bent. Somethings, can just make the world a darker place, push us closer to Orwellian territory (though often those folks arguing that forget that it requires unregulated or misused variations of said area of research not the findings themselves.). (of course i mean things like chip implantation and cloning, and i guess stem cell resreach, the last two were largely disliked based on ignorance and ideal but I can see how these things could be abused)

That's why that screening matters so much. They make it pretty difficult, arguably they go a bit overboard with it, but the basic principle is sound. You have to be sure that you are making a decision like that for the right reasons, because it is basically irreversible.

No argument there, any large operation like this should not be taken lightly.

So it's important people get appropriate help to sort out if it's the right thing for them to do or not...
Unfortunately, that doesn't stop sensationalist news reporting from jumping on any example of it going wrong, and wildly extrapolating what it means about the success of the treatments in general...
From what evidence there is, the success rate is pretty high compared to most medical treatments, so it's a bit disingenuous to jump on every failure and hold it up as proof of how flawed the whole idea is...

IF there is one thing the new is good at nowadays it's being sensational. Heck i think the news tainted that term for me all together. Though I suspect when i grow old enough I will enjoy them giving me something stupid and rigging to yell at yell at when there are no political debates on.
And if that producer is very consistent that's some cause for celebration on it's own right. It's good to hear some people will have the courage to face down the fear the media has instilled in them and receive the treatment they need.

Some people... Any excuse to make other people's lives more miserable, just because they have some ideological belief about it somehow...

I'll admit I ascribe to at least one secret ideal and i love making people miserable, so i can't chastise people too much for following their internal logic against all external reason.
The problem I see is the allowance for governance. an ideal should be a private affair, it is a personal thing that should not be inflicted upon another person and many people who hold them now a days seem to do them a great disservice.
Nothing can kill wisdom or reason more then stubbornness.
From my own personal ideologue I think it's a universal scale of projection.
These people may not wholly be able to deposit the difference difference between the internal and external worlds (which is supposedly a trait of premature births) thus apply this to everyone.
In all fairness I understand this is likely a small percentage, most likely a lot of the ideologues are people that have shut of their empathy and subsisted it for an idea of moral superiority.
To quote C S Lewis on the matter.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
C. S. Lewis

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Stopped reading at:

She saw five - no, six - dark shapes in the air.

I gave up this YA vérité narration kind of crap ten - no, eleven - years ago.

 

[Erttheking]

Ok, so there's a trans character...who cares?

The person who made the thread and everyone who commented on it before hand.

You know, the more and more I see people say "Who cares" in response to a thread, the more I get the sneeking suspicion that what they're actually saying is "I don't care." Because it's pretty obvious that people do care.

 

[Redryhno]

Ok, so there's a trans character...who cares?

The person who made the thread and everyone who commented on it before hand.

You know, the more and more I see people say "Who cares" in response to a thread, the more I get the sneaking suspicion that what they're actually saying is "I don't care." Because it's pretty obvious that people do care.

Ok, first, I corrected your spelling, second, you're only 3 days late to get upset over my apathy towards it, so that's a slightly better response time than small town cops getting to a break-in at the poverty line, good job.

Thirdly, yes, you're right, it largely means I don't care, I did not specify I spoke for anybody other than myself and people who actually share the sentiment in my post.

Finally, I do not give a damn about the lore in the MtG universe, most people I know don't either beyond the artwork and the little snippets the cards themselves give, because it's a card game designed to be played, not read. Not to mention except for a few key characters, the lore was incredibly underdeveloped last I checked.

As a result, the apathy comes from stories fifty, a hundred years ago that nobody cares about that have the same elements and types of characters that are all the rage now because nobody that makes a fuss about these things has actually read farther back than ten years and a choice few mandatory reads through schooling that have none of these things. And the people that have? They're content to just leave things as they are because it's funny to watch people talk about the under-representation of sexualities, genders, tree-hugging, what have you when anybody that knows anything can tell you to look back through literature history and they'll find these things there just as much as they can now, in that they're rare, but far from nonexistent before circa 1980.

Yes, you are correct in assuming that by me saying "who cares" means "I don't care". It also means that it makes no difference to me. I could go on a ten page rant talking about the shitty representation a quarter of my lineage has had through the majority of fiction, but I don't care because it does not affect me despite the stereotypes(I've had more as many 'where's your casino' and 'teach me how to holler with the wolves' jokes from my generation and younger than the older ones, despite how racist they're always depicted as). Just as it does not affect a trans(person? individual? Dizzy Chuggernaught or any other trans-... help me here with the terminology please!) if a fictional character is also trans beyond them being able to point at ONE PHYSICAL characteristic they have in common as opposed to anything that actually matters in terms of character and attitude.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I saw your post when I saw it.

You said "who cares" which heavily implies that you thought no one cares or didn't know anyone who cared. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked.

I do have to ask why you felt the need to post in a thread about a topic you don't care about. Seriously, why throw your hat into a subject you have no care for? I have no care for framerates, so I don't comment in that 60 fps thread that's going on right now.

Maybe there are. The thing is though, NOW people aren't really making stories with these types of characters, when we're supposed to be living in a more "enlightened" era. Doesn't really help that people can't even talk about the inclusion of homosexual or transexual characters without things going sour (This thread is living proof of that). So frankly, there's something worth talking about here. Because sadly, culture can regress in some areas.

One is a lot more clear about what you're trying to say. Actually I argue that does kind of affect you, because I'm pretty sure the majority of the racist jokes you get thrown at you are at least partially inspired by the media those people consume. (Transperson is good). Uh...I've been saying everyone in this thread liking how she's trans, but the main thing that they like about her is how...well..."metal" she is.

 

[Dragon Zero]

I thought Ashiok was their first trans character but I might be wrong, since Ashiok is part nightmare. I didn't really think much of the whole boy pretending to be a girl line but whatever floats your boat.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

So...you saw the comment, and then three days later after posting in other threads, you get back to the thing clawing at the back of your mind all that time and comment on my comment about apathy towards it that was the second part of people focusing solely on the first of a two part comment about the character? You've got a better memory for caring than I do.

And....wait, exactly what is your beef with my comment again? It's such an inconsequential thing that I've forgotten. I mean, it was a rhetorical question, you are aware how those work right? If not, I've got even more of a problem with the US education system than normal. Also, this age of enlightenment? C'mon, it's honestly just a time when knowledge wins out over religion, and most of the arguments I've seen against trans(excuse me if I wait for somebody actually in the culture/lifestyle to correct or educate me, because I've been hounded by people on this site for not identifying them in the exact correct way and I'm going to wait for an actual answer before finishing.) have been just as scientific in nature as those for.

The racist jokes, they're going to be thrown regardless of media consumed until we as a species simultaneously reach a state of supreme beings, I mean, unless you're saying that people need to stop reading history books, in which case I really should rethink my blaming of the education system.

 

[Dragon Zero]

Also if Alesha is male that identifies as female, I guess that kind of breaks the pattern since the khans in FRF are the opposite sex to the khans in... well, Khans. Unless Zurgo Helmsmasher is really a woman in which case I can't stop thinking of him dressed as a stereotypical southern belle. Which is quite frankly hilarious, so I guess I answered my own dilemma.

 

[Mangod]

Maybe it makes me horrible, but I always assumed that Alesha was a very flat woman, rather than a transgendered person. Maybe I'd be more impressed with Wizards revealing their first confirmed transgendered person if it wasn't "a trap".

Still love the character and card, though.

 

[DementedSheep]

Maybe it makes me horrible, but I always assumed that Alesha was a very flat woman, rather than a transgendered person. Maybe I'd be more impressed with Wizards revealing their first confirmed transgendered person if it wasn't "a trap".

Still love the character and card, though.

Yep, they should have named her "Alesha, the Transgendered" or made her flavour text "hey, did you know I actually have a dick?" because if you can't immediately tell whether a character is trangendered upon seeing them in any context they are "a trap".

 

[Thaluikhain]

Ok, so there's a trans character...who cares?

The person who made the thread and everyone who commented on it before hand.

You know, the more and more I see people say "Who cares" in response to a thread, the more I get the sneeking suspicion that what they're actually saying is "I don't care." Because it's pretty obvious that people do care.

I think adding "and neither should anyone else." onto that might be appropriate.

 

[Mangod]

Maybe it makes me horrible, but I always assumed that Alesha was a very flat woman, rather than a transgendered person. Maybe I'd be more impressed with Wizards revealing their first confirmed transgendered person if it wasn't "a trap".

Still love the character and card, though.

Yep, they should have named her "Alesha, the Transgendered" or made her flavour text "hey, did you know I actually have a dick?" because if you can't immediately tell whether a character is trangendered upon seeing them in any context they are "a trap".

I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have used the term "trap", that was my mistake. Still, I feel like the "Wizards of the Coast reveal their first transgendered character" loses some of its punch when the character has almost nothing about it that could identify it as male, and then go "Nope, it's a *man who identifies as a woman".

I just think that the reveal would have packed a bit more "oomph" if they told us that Alesha was a woman who identified as a man, or alternatively, had revealed that Shu Yun

or Daghatar

identified as female. Revealing that Alesha was a *woman in a mans body just fell kind of flat for me, because I already identified the character as female before The Truth of Names.

I'll say this much though, I'm gla they didn't use Tasigur for their first transgendered character, since that combined with The Doom of the Golden Fang would have raised some really horrible implications.

Sorry again if I have said anything offensive. I don't want to hurt anyones feelings, and I'm really sorry if I have, but I don't really know how to articulate this without sounding somewhat offensive. Again, my aplogies if anyone has taken offense. For the record, I love Alesha as a character, regardless of gender identity.

* What is the appropriate term for something like this, because I honestly don't know. Transgendered male? Female?

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Uh, no. I posted my post, went away, came back three days later, then noticed your post. That's all.

That it contributes nothing to the conversation. You basically insert yourself into the conversation to say that you don't care about the conversation. What's the point? It's rude, derails the thread a bit, and adds no discussion value. And yes, I know perfectly well that it was a rhetorical question, that knowledge does little to improve my opinion of it. Also my main focus is just your attitude in approaching this conversation, that's all.

This is just a hunch, but I feel like, while they wouldn't go away, they would at the very least be lessened if we could put in more effort to our media. We're a pretty dumb species, it's not hard for people to have their opinions affected by mass media.

 

[Redryhno]

Snip

Uh, no. I posted my post, went away, came back three days later, then noticed your post. That's all.

That it contributes nothing to the conversation. You basically insert yourself into the conversation to say that you don't care about the conversation. What's the point? It's rude, derails the thread a bit, and adds no discussion value. And yes, I know perfectly well that it was a rhetorical question, that knowledge does little to improve my opinion of it. Also my main focus is just your attitude in approaching this conversation, that's all.

This is just a hunch, but I feel like, while they wouldn't go away, they would at the very least be lessened if we could put in more effort to our media. We're a pretty dumb species, it's not hard for people to have their opinions affected by mass media.

Or...you know...you could look farther and realize that I'm much more concerned with what the card does in relation to the game than that they're trans, and I got my answer later. Therefore it was not solely to insert my own opinion into it.(Isn't that the problems of public forums? You get people that don't agree with you on everything and you have to go and put them in their place.)

You wanna talk about derailing and talking about inserting yourself into the conversation? Look no further than your own post about this topic. Nobody else commented on my "derail" since the mechanics were cleared up and you still felt the need to talk. It apparently was such a horrid comment of so many magnitudes that three responses(guessing) were required for it.

As for your responsible media approach, I'll try not to laugh and expect people to consume it no matter what and realize you can't treat people like that, it's much better in the long run when you expect people to be responsible opposed to movies, games, books, etc. being better behaved than some asshat on the side of the road.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Transsexuals just don't make a whole lot of sense in a fictional setting with magic, or sufficiently advanced enough technology to pass for magic. Kind of like having a character rolling about in a wheelchair when the local clergy really are capable of channeling divine energy to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life.

Is it safe to say that this strays into Reed Richards Is Useless [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless] territory?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Transsexuals just don't make a whole lot of sense in a fictional setting with magic, or sufficiently advanced enough technology to pass for magic. Kind of like having a character rolling about in a wheelchair when the local clergy really are capable of channeling divine energy to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life.

Is it safe to say that this strays into Reed Richards Is Useless [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless] territory?

Even assuming that everyone had access to that magic, how is that different from getting gender reassignment surgery?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Transsexuals just don't make a whole lot of sense in a fictional setting with magic, or sufficiently advanced enough technology to pass for magic. Kind of like having a character rolling about in a wheelchair when the local clergy really are capable of channeling divine energy to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life.

Is it safe to say that this strays into Reed Richards Is Useless [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless] territory?

Even assuming that everyone had access to that magic, how is that different from getting gender reassignment surgery?

I am assuming that the magic is capable of bringing a transsexual's biology and psychology into perfect alignment. Current gender reassignment surgeries only gives transsexuals the appearance of the gender that they identify as. So after the magic happens they would cease to be a transsexual because they would be indistinguishable from a biologically born female.

Maybe they'd be an ex-transsexual perhaps? A post-transsexual?