Woah Woah Woah. Okay, let's talk about women for a second.

museofdoom

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Sparrow said:
I am not on a crusade exactly, I made the friendzone post because I've been seeing an obnoxious abundance of friendzone memes, so I made a post to rant my view on it. And of course, there was misogyny there. So I've kind of gone into feminist mode. This thread was made because I made the mistake of reading through the super model thread. Like, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on it, because I knew it was going to make me angry, but I did anyway. I'm probably a mental masochist. But yeah, here we are.

I have posted in a few other threads completely unrelated to women, just not a lot recently.

And of course a lot of the laws relate to men as well as women. The thing is, in the model post, from what I could stomach of it, no one mentioned male models, no one hates on them. In that thread someone referred to models as "walking skeleton freaks", or a "glorified picture frame". All these awful comments were directed towards female models. Male models weren't even mentioned because no one seems to hate on them. And not all male models are huge and buff, quite the opposite actually. Generally male models are toned but not ripped. Unless they're in an athletics catalog or whatever.

Yes, men can sleep around too, it's their right. But generally, (at least in my experience) guys don't get nearly as much crap for sleeping around as women do.
 

zelda2fanboy

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
What happened to "sticks and stones..."? Serious question. I dont go out of my way to insult people but still...
"Stick and stones may break your bones, but I'm going to try as hard as I can to hurt you with my words as possible." To say that words hold no power is ridiculous. I tried and tried throughout my childhood to make myself believe that idiom, but it just doesn't work. Some of us on this planet are all sensitive and shit.

There are worse things than becoming a kind and accepting person. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I know it doesn't win you any awards or make you any friends, but it makes it easier to sleep when you think more highly of people. No reason to take on the baggage of others because you've found reasons to not like it. Why waste even a second of your mental capacity judging another person?
 

BloatedGuppy

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museofdoom said:
And of course a lot of the laws relate to men as well as women. The thing is, in the model post, from what I could stomach of it, no one mentioned male models, no one hates on them. In that thread someone referred to models as "walking skeleton freaks", or a "glorified picture frame". All these awful comments were directed towards female models. Male models weren't even mentioned because no one seems to hate on them. And not all male models are huge and buff, quite the opposite actually. Generally male models are toned but not ripped. Unless they're in an athletics catalog or whatever.
Modeling is a fairly ugly industry. It's mercenary and cut-throat, and it seems to take a heavy psychological toll on its constituents. I have a hard time taking issue with discouraging anyone...woman or male...from endorsing the industry in its current state. However, I agree that spewing bile at the models themselves is probably not the best way to go about it. Misdirected anger at best, naked misogyny at worst.

And by the way, you don't need to rationalize your desire to talk about women's issues and not spend an equal amount of time doting on men's. This is a goddam forum, you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. If I wanted to make a thread celebrating the scrotum I should feel free to do so, and somehow I doubt women would storm it demanding equal time for the vagina. The same should apply here. For some reason every time a thread appears in these forums with even a whiff of estrogen around it, a certain demographic feels threatened, panics, and loses their minds.
 

museofdoom

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Strazdas said:
museofdoom said:
2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.
If she is doing on on her own choice (for example starving because she has a sick sense of beat) then they are bad person. Other than that i agree with you. however from my experience i have learned that stereotyping is mostly right.
Legitimate anorexia or bulimia isn't something that can be helped. The people with those disorders will constantly see themselves as fat even when they're completely emaciated. It's really really sad. They're not stupid, it's not their fault.
 

aescuder

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To the OP: great points all around. And yes it's odd, and a little sad, that we still even have to bring a lot of this stuff up. I'm wondering if the "fact" (data from recent poll) that 1/3 of the forum users haven't had a real relationship yet and thus have a somewhat negative gut reaction to pretty girls and models (born out of insecurity, past XP, blah blah blah).

I may have to slightly disagree with the whole all bodies are good bodies bit though. Although this just might be from our definition of "good". Skinny and large bodies are all well and good but I think if it gets past a certain point where it starts affecting a person's health (physical & mental) then I don't think you or anyone should be calling it good or acceptable.

Anorexic and obese bodies aren't really "acceptable", not in a social subconscious sense and not in a health sense. And I think painting it in that light would send a bad/counterproductive message to both the owner of those bodies and future generations. I'm no doctor or sociologist and this may be a giant leap but IMO if we keep telling kids that there's nothing wrong with being obese or overly skinny then we can potentially be fostering pathological liars (like Cartman) or sociopaths with deep seeded insecurities.
 

BloatedGuppy

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Yeah, but the fact is a lot of people are going to be assholes and insult you. You can sugarcoat that shit as much as you want and tell them not to as much as you want, its still gonna happen. And I think we should put more effort into telling people to stop giving a fuck about what others say, instead of giving cunts attention.
We can do both, though, yeah? I mean, beliefs and values are not zero sum. I can believe that people should have a thick skin and not over-react to every random slur, whilst at the same time believing that hurling around random slurs is abhorrent behavior and should result in an avalanche of scorn. I mean, I can't personally stop all the murders, either, but I can still believe murder is contemptible.
 

Xanadu84

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I just need to add something which needs to be said. Not all bodies are good bodies.

Skinny became desireable because it was a healthy and attractive body type. Then it got blown out of proportion. It became too important and the desireable mean weight became waaaay too skinny. Yes, a curvy and meaty body type AND a naturally tiny, skinny body type can be sexy, and equally so (within the parameters of taste). But real women don't have to have curves in the way that statement usually means. if you are healthy and happy and look like a twig, more power to you. A lot of women are also just fat and could stand to lose some weight. Just like men, lots of women need to excersize more and eat better, and if you work hard to be hotter AND healthier, hey, mad respect here, I'm working on that same legitimate goal. Just because society puts unreasonable expectations on you doesn't mean that shedding a few pounds isn't a good idea, and if you accept your excess flab because society id trying to reverse its crazy expectations, your just as much a slave as you were before. The real problem bouncing around here is that nobodies perfect and that's okay. If you are a lady who is fat and curing cancer, then you are the most awesome scientist ever who hey, could stand to lose a few pounds. Its a negative trait that you shouldn't notice next to that Nobel prize. Its still bad to be fat, but there are more important things to consider.
 

Freechoice

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museofdoom said:
Liquidacid23 said:
The Thinker said:
museofdoom said:
"all bodies are good bodies" basically translates to "everyone is beautiful."
I assume this is "internal beauty". Because not everyone is externally beautiful, but a lot of people have redeeming qualities.
haha that reminds me of this

That's just not a very nice comic. Fat is not synonymous with ugly.
No, but it's a pretty good indicator for a lack of self-control or hereditary issues. Both are something to consider when engaging in a reproductive act.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Xanadu84 said:
I just need to add something which needs to be said. Not all bodies are good bodies.

Skinny became desireable because it was a healthy and attractive body type. Then it got blown out of proportion. It became too important and the desireable mean weight became waaaay too skinny. Yes, a curvy and meaty body type AND a naturally tiny, skinny body type can be sexy, and equally so (within the parameters of taste). But real women don't have to have curves in the way that statement usually means. if you are healthy and happy and look like a twig, more power to you. A lot of women are also just fat and could stand to lose some weight. Just like men, lots of women need to excersize more and eat better, and if you work hard to be hotter AND healthier, hey, mad respect here, I'm working on that same legitimate goal. Just because society puts unreasonable expectations on you doesn't mean that shedding a few pounds isn't a good idea, and if you accept your excess flab because society id trying to reverse its crazy expectations, your just as much a slave as you were before. The real problem bouncing around here is that nobodies perfect and that's okay. If you are a lady who is fat and curing cancer, then you are the most awesome scientist ever who hey, could stand to lose a few pounds. Its a negative trait that you shouldn't notice next to that Nobel prize. Its still bad to be fat, but there are more important things to consider.
I can agree 100%, with some important disclaimers.

If someone is obese, or anorexic, that person should still feel like a worthwhile human being. They should still feel loved, or at least worthy of love. They should still feel respected, as a person. Their weight and their personality are two very, very different things.

If you want to censure their weight, because it's unhealthy, and will result in their painful and early demise, by all means do so. We should not be supporting obesity or anorexia on ANY level. But calling them names/shaming them is really hugely counterproductive. It usually just reinforces the destructive downward spiral they're on.
 

Char-Nobyl

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Korolev said:
Well, I agree. A person's body belongs to them, and what they do with it is up to them (as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process).
I think that stretches it a bit. It's an extreme example, but if you see what a suicide does to surviving family members, you'd likely understand why it's illegal. There's more than just physical harm at stake.

Korolev said:
People shouldn't be insulted for being too fat or too thin. Obviously, from a medical standpoint, it is unhealthy to be obese or anorexic. But the worst thing you can do is to insult them.
Just as a side note, 'anorexia' isn't the same thing as 'unhealthily skinny.' It's an action/condition that leads to that, but I think you're just looking for 'starved' or 'malnourished.'

Korolev said:
People are so quick to judge others on their looks, because they can't help but think that they are tied up in how another person looks. Subconsciously, a lot of people think that someone looks or dresses a certain way in order to judge them or influence them. This is ludicrous. How someone else looks or dresses has no bearing on anyone else, nor should it.
It can be potentially...telling. It's not limited to women, though. How someone dresses for work, a date, etc can be a pretty strong indicator of how much respect they have for the occasion.

Korolev said:
I have nothing against models - if that's what they want to do, so be it. Some claim that they perpetuate an unrealistic body image for young women - but that's more the fault of the marketers, who choose to put these models on billboards. It's not the fault of the models themselves. If you're going to blame anyone for bad body image, blame fashion DESIGNERS, not the models they hire.

It's like when some of my friends blame the Chinese for "Stealing our jobs" - they didn't "steal" our jobs. They were GIVEN our jobs by our BOSSES, and why wouldn't they accept it? It's not the chinese people's fault that they were offered the jobs, and it's not the models fault that marketers, fashion designers and business people use specific body types in their marketing.
Careful with that comparison, mate. It's got a few pitfalls.

The latter can pretty easily be illustrated as a sadistic choice for American industry: China can literally sell goods for less than they cost to produce because of central planning. Government dictates the cost of goods, regardless of what it costs to make them. An economy like the US can't compete with that. Businesses were faced with the choice of moving their production overseas, or staying behind and getting curbstomped by companies that didn't have such reservations.

Korolev said:
People are quick to judge others because they secretly think that everything revolves around them. "I dislike the way those people dress! ARRRRGGH! I must voice my displeasure because how DARE they dress in a way I don't like! They should have known I didn't like it! They are intentionally doing it to infuriate me!" or "I can't imagine myself doing X - those people are doing X, how disgusting they are!". People need to realize that the world does not revolve around them.
...do you realize the irony of assuming that everyone who takes issue with anything you've mentioned is inherently self-centered?

Korolev said:
How others dress and act has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone). Live your life the way you want to, let others live their life the way they want to.
Let's not get carried away. This is becoming less "live and let live" and more "nonviolent sociopathy." Clinging adamantly to the idea that it's only your opinion of yourself that matters is pretty much textbook dissociative personality disorder (aka sociopathy). Some people might judge others for subconsciously self-centered reasons, but that's hardly an invitation to spit in the faces of everyone who has some sort of expectation of you.

Korolev said:
Now, some would argue (including many of my fellow med students) that we should judge obese people because obesity is bad and impacts the health system and drains resources. Yeah, well, LOTS of things do that. The BMJ recently published a study conclusively linking excess consumption of red meat to an increased risk of certain types of cancer. Should we heckle and judge anyone who eats a beef burger? Those who play video games excessively are at a greater risk of developing RSI and other joint disorders. Do you shout insults against anyone who plays Diablo III? Motorcycles are so dangerous that some doctors call them "Donorcycles" due to the amount of severely brain damaged motorcycle accident victims we see routinely. Driving motorcycles increases the risk of serious injury and consequently, the use of medical resources. Do we slam and humiliate motorcycle drivers? No.
That's an argument that crops up pretty routinely in the marijuana legalization debate: "Because more/equally risky things are generally accepted, therefore issue X should also be accepted."

Someone who smokes isn't forbidden from helping intervene for a friend with a drinking problem. We shouldn't just judge people for being obese, but Christ, we shouldn't leave it alone because we let people do different things that are also potentially risky to their long-term health.

Korolev said:
NO ONE is perfect. No one is free from all problems. I'm not a religious man in any way, but even I find some useful tips from the Bible: " why behold you the speck that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?"
Huh. I was actually expecting you to use "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," but that works, too.
 

Xanadu84

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BloatedGuppy said:
Xanadu84 said:
I just need to add something which needs to be said. Not all bodies are good bodies.

Skinny became desireable because it was a healthy and attractive body type. Then it got blown out of proportion. It became too important and the desireable mean weight became waaaay too skinny. Yes, a curvy and meaty body type AND a naturally tiny, skinny body type can be sexy, and equally so (within the parameters of taste). But real women don't have to have curves in the way that statement usually means. if you are healthy and happy and look like a twig, more power to you. A lot of women are also just fat and could stand to lose some weight. Just like men, lots of women need to excersize more and eat better, and if you work hard to be hotter AND healthier, hey, mad respect here, I'm working on that same legitimate goal. Just because society puts unreasonable expectations on you doesn't mean that shedding a few pounds isn't a good idea, and if you accept your excess flab because society id trying to reverse its crazy expectations, your just as much a slave as you were before. The real problem bouncing around here is that nobodies perfect and that's okay. If you are a lady who is fat and curing cancer, then you are the most awesome scientist ever who hey, could stand to lose a few pounds. Its a negative trait that you shouldn't notice next to that Nobel prize. Its still bad to be fat, but there are more important things to consider.
I can agree 100%, with some important disclaimers.

If someone is obese, or anorexic, that person should still feel like a worthwhile human being. They should still feel loved, or at least worthy of love. They should still feel respected, as a person. Their weight and their personality are two very, very different things.

If you want to censure their weight, because it's unhealthy, and will result in their painful and early demise, by all means do so. We should not be supporting obesity or anorexia on ANY level. But calling them names/shaming them is really hugely counterproductive. It usually just reinforces the destructive downward spiral they're on.
I agree. There's no profit to be had for anyone in name calling. Obese and anorexic people should still be treated well, but its important to acknowledge that these conditions are not desireable. If it is medical then the person deserves credit for overcoming a handicap, and they should be given any possible reasonable treatment. If it is not medical then societal pressures should be there nudging the person and saying"hey, a change would be healthy ". That's a good influence for society to have. The problem is when it goes from a nudge to a jab coupled with a dirty look.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Xanadu84 said:
I agree. There's no profit to be had for anyone in name calling. Obese and anorexic people should still be treated well, but its important to acknowledge that these conditions are not desireable. If it is medical then the person deserves credit for overcoming a handicap, and they should be given any possible reasonable treatment. If it is not medical then societal pressures should be there nudging the person and saying"hey, a change would be healthy ". That's a good influence for society to have. The problem is when it goes from a nudge to a jab coupled with a dirty look.
The unfortunate thing is all the name calling has made it very, very difficult to constructively encourage someone to drop/gain weight. Telling someone "I am concerned about your weight, for medical reasons" now goes in as "FATTY FATTY FAT FAT". At my heaviest I was 230 lbs on a 6'3 frame, which was hardly obese, but hardly healthy, either. Everyone told me I looked fine. I did not look fine. I looked pale and puffy and terrible. I really wish more people had the guts to tell me I looked pale and puffy and terrible. I could have had a sad little cry, and then set about losing some weight. Instead I had to get downright sick before I started taking my weight seriously and trimmed down.

It's not a good situation, on any level.
 

Blobpie

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They are first and foremost people, and they deserve the respect of being a person.
I'm still disappointed that they actually don't have superpowers :(
 

DevilWithaHalo

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zelda2fanboy said:
What do you personally gain by calling people names? People can feel ashamed of themselves and their actions without you trying to deliberately hurt their feelings. And when they aren't ashamed of their actions, they just see a guy attempting to deliberately hurt their feelings. Not only that, but people who aren't the intended targets might hear what you say and feel a sense of shame for things they haven't even done. It's just not nice.
The point just flew right over your head didn?t it? Using an accurate descriptor is not an insult. Calling someone a slut because they are acting like a slut is not a deliberate attempt to hurt their feelings. I?m also not going to consider the passerby?s in regard to whether or not they understand the context of the conversation I?m having with someone else. Why in gods name would someone feel shame for something they didn?t do? Would anyone feel guilty over a murder they didn?t commit?
zelda2fanboy said:
Saving some time. No, you don't have to be nice to people. But people who aren't nice make things slightly blander, the world less interesting, and people not as willing to go out for fear of running into individuals such as yourself. It's makes it harder to reach out to people. As I said, it's unproductive.
Yes, because challenging the preconceived notions of proper conduct never warranted the worlds history with anything worthwhile! It?s not nice to question authority, one?s place in the world, or raise any questions that counter the traditional values of society. Not to mention it would make the world far less honest; which would make it less interesting and bland. The entire comedic industry would crumble overnight!
Spot1990 said:
As Oscar Wilde said "The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for. "
He also said; ?I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.?
Spot1990 said:
And being cruel gets you what exactly?
You seem to be under this misguided perspective that I am being cruel when I merely classify. There is a difference between the two.
Spot1990 said:
Seems it takes more effort to condemn than to ignore.
Since you?re fond of quotes; ?All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.? Besides, who?s condemning here?
Spot1990 said:
True, but one can still be hurt by cruelty from others.
That?s kind of the point isn?t it?
Spot1990 said:
True, but much like if I shit on your doorstep it quickly becomes your problem and not mine, it's still not a nice thing to do and it seems incredibly unnecessary. Unless, of course, my intent is to hurt.
While amusing, your metaphor is senseless. Calling a fat person fat is not the same thing as shitting on my doorstep. One is using a definition in its intended context, the other is voiding your bowels in an area not designed for it.
Spot1990 said:
Most assholes wouldn't be in fairness.
Then should I suggest they tighten their emotional sphincters a bit more?
Spot1990 said:
True, I've often said that people should be offended by intent, not the arbitrary sounds used to convey it. However, I doubt you call someone a slut to make them feel good about themselves.
Well? the names I might call someone in specific circumstances might be quite appealing given the context we find ourselves in. As you said, out intent behind it is the driving force, not the word we use. Although I can imagine some level of confusion if we use a word which describes something else entirely; ?You like that don?t you? Yah, you?re a dirty little Gasket.?
 

BloatedGuppy

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DevilWithaHalo said:
Since you?re fond of quotes; ?All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.? Besides, who?s condemning here?
Did you really just use that quote in defense of NAME CALLING?

"Slut" is a negative term with a negative connotation. It's an insult, whether you want to argue that it's deserved or not. I mean, presumably you think it's deserved, or you wouldn't be issuing it.

Really though, this isn't something that anyone should need to expend energy to convince you of. You don't express yourself like a five year old, so I'm operating under the assumption here that you are not five years old, and therefore should not find "name calling" to be a hilarious antic, nor a hill worth dying on in order to prevent the triumph of evil. It's just a petty, miserable, intellectually bankrupt way of labeling things we wish to tear down.