Woah Woah Woah. Okay, let's talk about women for a second.

Relish in Chaos

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Liquidacid23 said:
Phasmal said:
This is silly. I doubt any woman wakes up in the morning and thinks `What can I wear so dudes on the street I dont know will stare?`.
you have apparently never met a stripper... :p
She was talking about dudes "on the street". Presumably, strippers would do their job inside, and many of the "entertained" could be former/regular clients.

But generally, unless they are strippers/prostitutes, going to a nightclub to get laid, or have low self-esteem, I don't think women wear revealing clothing just so men will stare at them. Many just don't give a shit. Some guy gets a boner, big deal. Yeah, maybe they don't want and maybe it's distracting, but women can't help being sexy! :p

OK, I realize that I kind of contradicted myself with my aforementioned statement, as a lot of women do go to nightclubs with the primary motive of getting laid by men that themselves may go to nightclubs with the primary motive of getting laid by women that are bound to dress in revealing clothing. And yes, there are a lot of women with low self-esteem that perhaps need a couple of glances to make themselves feel better. But it's something that I can't see myself getting that worked up over, and it honestly depends on how much skin she's showing off, and the acceptability of this amount is subjective.
 

Chemical Alia

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mattttherman3 said:
I agree with everything the OP said, but as a rule, if I can fit a wrist in my hand whereas my index finger and thumb can touch easily, I generally assume an eating disorder(if they are fully grown people over 5 foot 5)
Are you kidding? I'm 5'7", 134 lbs. (the exact target weight for my height) and can fit my wrist between my thumb and all fingers but my pinky, even with my small woman hands.

That doesn't indicate an eating disorder, that indicates a petite bone structure. /:

In fact, 136 lbs. is the high end of the target weight with a small build. Before I started working out a few months ago, my body fat ratio was higher than it should be.
 

axlryder

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Phasmal said:
axlryder said:
That's a fair point, and make note that I wouldn't call them "a total slut", but if they're getting angry that I glanced, I'm going to ask "if you didn't want people to look, why did you wear that?" I feel it's an honest inquiry. At the time she didn't seem to have a decent answer. Perhaps someone else could provide a better one?
This is silly. I doubt any woman wakes up in the morning and thinks `What can I wear so dudes on the street I dont know will stare?`.
When I wear something nice it's because it makes me feel nice (not because I want attention, but because I think I don't look hideous), or maybe I'm doing it because I want to look nice for a certain person like my boyfriend.

If I'm wearing something nice and somebody looks, I don't get mad, but I don't really like it.
Okay, "something nice" isn't the same as a v-neck that goes down to your naval in my mind. I'm being hyperbolic, but at the same time I'm really not if you've seen some of the things people wear. There's obviously no clear line, but you can tell when people cross into "notice me!" territory. I remember a couple months ago a girl was wearing a shirt made almost entirely of mesh and a bra in a Walgreens. why ELSE would they do it when they say they just wear it because they "like to" in dead winter. I'm also referring to clubs here. I'm amazed at some of the stuff some people pass off as "clothes".
 

axlryder

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Mortai Gravesend said:
axlryder said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
axlryder said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
axlryder said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
axlryder said:
museofdoom said:
Revolutionaryloser said:
I posted earlier but I really want to know this. Why isn't it OK to slut shame a woman who chooses to walk around looking like a hooker? I mean literally looking like a hooker. I really wish I knew the answer to that.
Because people should be allowed to dress how they want to dress without being chastised for it. If a woman wants to show off a lot of skin, let her. She's comfortable enough with her body to show it off and that's great. So what if she wants to wear fishnet leggings and stilettos? If it makes her happy, then so be it. It's not affecting you personally, so why do you have the right to be a jerk and try to make someone feel ashamed of the way they choose to dress?
a.) as a straight man, it is inherently physiologically distracting to me when a woman has a plunging neckline or other equally revealing attire.
As a straight man I'm going to call you on you bullshit. You have the problem and it isn't inherent to straight men. Your inability to focus is your problem, not some inherent physiological thing. Trying to deflect responsibility like that is pathetic.

What's more, it "makes her happy" because she likes the attention she gets from strangers.
You're saying that because it makes you sad to admit that you're responsible for your own problem. See, I can make up motives for people too.

It's the only possible reason she would dress overly revealingly in public "just because", otherwise she could just do it in private.
Ah, got me there. You said it was the only possible reason. How can we ever argue with the bullshit that spews from your lips? I mean, you said it was true. How can we refute evidence like that? Wait... what evidence?

While I normally wouldn't just point this out (why would I?), I would be happy to do so if said woman somehow retaliated to glance or something. You can call it "slut shaming", I just call it honest retaliation.
More like you're trying a pathetic denial of your own responsibility for your actions and then pretending that no one should dare react.

I bring it up only because woman who dress this way ARE going to be treated differently. That's just the reality.
Which doesn't justify anything. Yes, because people like you exist, they will be treated differently. That does not make it correct.

Those who have deluded themselves into thinking otherwise are often the ones I see crying foul.
No, it's those who are smart enough not to think "It happens" is a reason to not object to it happening. Murder happens. It's just reality. So let's not complain about murder. Your logic when applied to murder.

Also, I have every right to be a jerk.
And they have every right to call you on it and try to ostracize you socially.

Your own subjective views don't somehow undermine those rights.
Aww, how cute. It's the stupid "It's my right!" defense. When you grow up a bit you might learn that just because people say you shouldn't do something doesn't mean they're trying to take away your rights. They're not restraining you or imprisoning you.

No one is trying to undermine your rights, take off the tinfoil hat, kiddo.
First of all, it's true that the reaction is not pure reflex, but it is influenced by such. If you turn around and there's a woman with a lot of cleavage starting at you, you may just look without realize it. If you noticed the cleavage, then you looked.
Or depending on distance it was there anyway. Regardless, looking at things is not 'inherently physiologically distracting'.

Now, your entire rebuttal is based in the assumption that I have a problem.
If you find something like that distracting enough to mention, you do have a focusing problem.

How is looking at cleavage a problem? I don't see it as such. If my reaction is actually getting in the way of communication or shows a complete lack of self control, I would personally see it as a problem, however a glance really doesn't do either of those things.
You're the one who claimed it was inherently physiologically distracting. That would presumably be a problem if it actually is distracting.

If a woman wants to ***** about it, fine, I'll call her on wearing a shirt that intentionally shows of a lot of skin.
Call her on it? What, she made you look? Don't be stupid, she can't control your reaction.

You're correct that they have every right to try and ostracize me, and I have every right to retaliate. Otherwise, we'll go on our merry ways. Also, the OP implied it's someone's "responsibility" to be anything. That's BS, and that's what I was pointing out. Just as your own behavior can be seen as uncouth, it is your right to be that way.
What's with that idiotic 'your right' thing? Why are you bringing rights into this? Is anyone calling for someone else to be handcuffed and thrown in jail? No? Then rights aren't relevant.
I feel there's a disconnect here then. I consider something to be physiologically distracting if you reflexive look at it. I mentioned it because I've had woman get angry about that very thing (turned around, noticed her cleavage momentarily, she got angry about it). Honestly, again, with the reflexive bit, she had influence over my reaction.
I really have doubts about that. I do not turn around and reflexively look down. Sounds like you're just trying to assign responsibility for your actions to someone else. It's really quite ridiculous.

Also, allow me to rephrase: you're allowed to do whatever you want, whenever you want. There will be consequences, yes, but you can do it. Thus, when OP implied "it's your responsibility" I called BS.
Allowed by...? Oh right, nothing says that. If you want to be all "There's no real morals" then you can't go and call it acceptable either. It just is.
Listen, how it sounds to you doesn't matter. If you think it's such a ridiculous claim that a man might reflexively look at cleavage when being caught off guard, fine, but you are not everyone, and you finding it ridiculous doesn't undermine it.
Sure it undermines it. Just like you claiming it exists supports it. Double standard much?

The biological and psychological components are undoubtedly there. I know others would likely confess to a similar experience. Perhaps you are immune to your own hormones or possess extraordinary, unconscious self control when it comes to not looking at cleavage. Good for you.
Prove that any supposed reflex has anything to do with being a straight male. Go on. You claiming that it is undoubtedly there doesn't prove anything, btw. It isn't self-control or any shit like that. There simply isn't an automatic "look at boobs" reflex from being a straight guy.

Allowed by your own brain, really. As long as your are physically capable of it, you can do it. Also, I didn't call it acceptable (acceptable by who?), I was just making the point that it's the perceived reality of our existence (as far as anyone can tell, anyway).
Allowed by your brain? Then it's a pointless and inane statement. No one said people were incapable of it.


Well, thinking about it, I honestly don't think just straight males would be inclined to glance at a bulging, bountiful bosom, as others seem to have an innate reaction to breasts too. Being a straight male, they would elicit a different kind of reaction in me than from, say, a gay dude, but they'd probably glance as well. I have this one gay friend who loves to motorboat girls. Dunno why, he's an interesting one. That said, I don't think such a glance is exclusive to just breasts, though they are rather attention grabbing.

Regardless, I mention gender and orientation because our biological components probably play a role here.
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/852123--ogling-women-a-natural-reflex

I'm not even saying I think men HAVE to do it, just that we're predisposed to, especially momentarily and when caught off guard. Since reflex can be defined as happening without conscious thought, I think it's a fairly appropriate term.

Also, I say allowed by your brain because, aside from your own body and the physical restraints of reality, what else is going to physically limit what you can and can't do? This second portion of the conversation seems to have gone on a bit of a tangent though.
 

Relish in Chaos

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Liquidacid23 said:
eh I gave up figuring out why people wear weird shit a long time ago.. saw a girl this morning out in 40 degree weather in a hoody sweater, heavy jacket, wool cap and big fuzzy winter boots.. but wearing shorts so short her asscheecks were hanging out... lol
Heh. Well, at least she compromised! :D
 

Combustion Kevin

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can't have judgemental without the mental, am I right?

still, I can't exactly agree that there is actual womenhate here on the escapist, just dating problems, me included.
that and a generous scoup of bitterness.

also, if you get angry at people who enjoy looking at models (the nude variety, mostly) for being shallow and/or superficial, well, it's modelling, whatcha gonna do?
it is an industry that focusses on the exterior and nothing else, THAT is model-work, there's nothing wrong with enjoying it, be it spectator or professional.

what IS wrong, however, is holding non-model people up to those standards, that's like expecting one of those models to be a great programmer, it's possible but not very probable and completely unfair.
 

Hobohodo

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museofdoom said:
So upon reading through that thread on super models, I saw some pretty awful commentary.

There was a lot of shaming being done, and stereotypes and generalizations being thrown. So let me make some things clear.

1) Just because a woman is thin, doesn't mean she's anorexic.
2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.
3)Being pretty doesn't mean they lack a personality, or kindness or intelligence.
4)There is nothing wrong with girls who make a living from modeling. If they love doing it, then that's perfectly ok!
5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger. All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

Sorry for ranting, I just had a lot of feelings. (and I'm not attacking men here, girls are perfectly capable of slut shaming and being sexist. It actually happens quite a bit.)
You seem to be doing allot of these theme based threads... all very similar. I gotta be honest, I haven't really seen many people on this forum make the above comments, or even many men I know in real life who believe any of that.

There is no problem with women, but I do feel sometimes women self-victimize, and often try to justify how equal they are, whilst allot of it is unneeded, it's good to be empowered, but I feel quite allot of people use it to their advantage to make people feel bad. Myself, I don't think modelling makes someone stupid, and it's fine if some people want to do it, but the headlines are a bit daft, case in point, Amy Childs, you can't tell me that girl has any intelligence...
Sex has become such an accepted thing, I don't really hear anyone being called a slut, much anymore, but some of it is needed, not just in the sexual way, but also in the normal, everyday life. I hate women who flirt with every guy they come across, men the same, because then you are being a tart, I don't care if you can, doesn't mean you should. By now, I assume everyone know's that Women like sex, that's been clear for a long time.
The people who are being sexist on the internet, are usually only joking, and aren't actually being sexist, so I don't really see the problem with it, asking some girl to show their boobs on a forum obviously isn't being serious...
Finally, a woman may very well be big or small, it shouldn't really matter, I personally go for a womans personality, not saying I don't find certain women attractive, but it doesn't matter if they are big or small... I don't see people thinking anorexic people are bad, because it's a serious illness, and if people do, they are ignorant.
 

Mebulous

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People judge people by appearance. This is true for every single person on this thread, myself included. I am a burn survivor and I STILL judge people by appearance.

Every day that I go outside people stare at my disfigured body parts. And I stare right back at them thinking about who they are based solely on appearance.

Humans will only be more humane when they cease being human.

And one other thing, if you are a truly strong person, and I mean really strong, it will not matter what the fuck you look like or what other people say. Nothing will change who you really are as a woman. Nobody can take away your womenhood. You have to give that up yourself.
 

TheVioletBandit

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museofdoom said:
targren said:
Basically, what you just said with that entire post is: "I can be a jerk and insult someone and condemn their behavior or their body type because I don't personally agree with it or find it attractive." Also, just because you don't find something attractive, doesn't mean that other people don't or shouldn't.

I don't mean everyone has to think the same way, I just think that no one should be chastised for how they choose to behave as long as it's not infringing upon the rights of others, hurting someone, or against the law.

The whole point of this thread was: Stop judging, be a decent human being, and be accepting of other people's behavior and physical appearance even if it doesn't line up with your own beliefs and/or moral code or suit your particular taste.

This "Stop judging, be a decent human being, and be accepting of other people's behavior and physical appearance even if it doesn't line up with your own beliefs and/or moral code or suit your particular taste." is in fact a moral code that your trying to make people abide by, and because your judging the people who don't share your belief as indecent your breaking your own moral code as you try to push it onto others. I'm not necessarily saying this because I disagree with everything you've said, as some of it I agree with very much; I just want you to be aware of what your doing. Also, as I said in another post in this thread (which you could read if you want) I think that labeling people who may not like modeling, don't agree with everything you say, or don't want to be your friend after you have rejected them as "women haters" is just a cop-out, or a way to rationalize peoples disagreements with you in a way that makes you feel better about your stance on the issue. I for one love women, and the reason I don't like modeling is because I feel like it has a harmful negative affect on culture, and more specifically on the women that I love.
 

BloatedGuppy

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DevilWithaHalo said:
Given the pliable nature of the English language, I wouldn?t disagree with the notion that many various words were intentionally created with a specific connotation in mind. However, the reverse is also true where the original context behind a word is lost or altered through the ages. And of course we have many words with far too many definitions it?s tough to know exactly what they mean outside the context they are being used in. Had there been a demonstrable lack of a counter use of the word slut, I would be inclined to agree with your position. But I simply can?t overlook the context I?ve used it in without negative intent and the various current crusades to reinvent the nature of the word in the slut-parades. One only has to look at the word ?gay? to realize it bounces around like a volleyball in a game of appropriate use.
I just don't think there's an argument that "slut" has been colloquially re-appropriated in any meaningful way. It's nice that people are trying, but unlike 'gay' there's still a single primary definition for slut, and that definition is profoundly unflattering when applied in certain contexts. We're heading off into some serious Game of Semantics territory here. I'm not going to throw the word "******" around in mixed company when "cigarette" will suffice, and I'm not going to call a woman a slut and then act confounded if she takes offense, because I'm perfectly aware of the myriad of perfectly legitimate reasons why someone might be put by out my use of that word. It doesn't cost me anything to think before I speak, and I'm not really willing to always let my behavior be someone else's problem when I'm perfectly capable of adapting my language to the company I'm in.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Besides the discussion in regards to words themselves, I still stand by the idea one can only feel disgraced by actions they are ashamed they made. This is probably a personal thing, but I just don?t understand how someone can be shamed by others. I?ll continually chalk it up to my inexperience with the emotion.
It's an interesting point, but I've felt guilty for absolutely no reason when a cop drives by. Emotions are a complex stew. And whether or not the origin for that person's shame is your comment or something they've personally done, you're still taking a hand in triggering it. Unless you have a good reason for doing so, it does come across as fairly pointless malice.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Might be why the next quote was squirrely.
Y'know, I took a look, and a missing n doesn't really account for that at all. I think I just borked my quote. The mystery of the missing n continues.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Actually, I?d inquire as to your position on the term obese within the distinction between definition and implied insult. Many people do find that to be offensive, in addition to the various alternatives that generally mean the same thing; obese, very fat, overweight, corpulent, fatty, plump, well-fed, portly, pudgy, stout, large and in charge, BBW, etc. While the definition remains the same, would you think that the implication behind each word carries its own weight (pun), or that it becomes, as I suggested earlier, a personal issue the person in question has with their own stature? After a while it surely can?t be the implication anymore right?
Because there isn't an inherent judgment in the word obese. Whereas "fat pig" would be laden with implied intent to insult, "obese" is a necessary descriptor, and probably the most neutral/measurable/medically appropriate one available. I don't think it's necessary to eternally protect people from their own neuroses, but neither do I think it's necessary to call someone a slut and defend it as "calling a spade a spade", when there are perfectly acceptable words that AREN'T emotionally charged/implied insults you could use to describe the same behavior.
 

Phasmal

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axlryder said:
Phasmal said:
axlryder said:
That's a fair point, and make note that I wouldn't call them "a total slut", but if they're getting angry that I glanced, I'm going to ask "if you didn't want people to look, why did you wear that?" I feel it's an honest inquiry. At the time she didn't seem to have a decent answer. Perhaps someone else could provide a better one?
This is silly. I doubt any woman wakes up in the morning and thinks `What can I wear so dudes on the street I dont know will stare?`.
When I wear something nice it's because it makes me feel nice (not because I want attention, but because I think I don't look hideous), or maybe I'm doing it because I want to look nice for a certain person like my boyfriend.

If I'm wearing something nice and somebody looks, I don't get mad, but I don't really like it.
Okay, "something nice" isn't the same as a v-neck that goes down to your naval in my mind. I'm being hyperbolic, but at the same time I'm really not if you've seen some of the things people wear. There's obviously no clear line, but you can tell when people cross into "notice me!" territory. I remember a couple months ago a girl was wearing a shirt made almost entirely of mesh and a bra in a Walgreens. why ELSE would they do it when they say they just wear it because they "like to" in dead winter. I'm also referring to clubs here. I'm amazed at some of the stuff some people pass off as "clothes".
Sometimes I get nervous because something I'm wearing shows off a bit of cleavage and I don't really want people to automatically judge me. Some women just go `Fuck it that makes me feel good and look good so bollocks to whatever people think`, honestly I wish I had that mentality sometimes instead of worrying. Honestly, I think you think too much about it, if it makes them feel good then they are gonna wear it. If you want to look and don't wanna get moaned at, do it discreetly. They are not dressed up specifically for you.
 

axlryder

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Phasmal said:
axlryder said:
Phasmal said:
axlryder said:
That's a fair point, and make note that I wouldn't call them "a total slut", but if they're getting angry that I glanced, I'm going to ask "if you didn't want people to look, why did you wear that?" I feel it's an honest inquiry. At the time she didn't seem to have a decent answer. Perhaps someone else could provide a better one?
This is silly. I doubt any woman wakes up in the morning and thinks `What can I wear so dudes on the street I dont know will stare?`.
When I wear something nice it's because it makes me feel nice (not because I want attention, but because I think I don't look hideous), or maybe I'm doing it because I want to look nice for a certain person like my boyfriend.

If I'm wearing something nice and somebody looks, I don't get mad, but I don't really like it.
Okay, "something nice" isn't the same as a v-neck that goes down to your naval in my mind. I'm being hyperbolic, but at the same time I'm really not if you've seen some of the things people wear. There's obviously no clear line, but you can tell when people cross into "notice me!" territory. I remember a couple months ago a girl was wearing a shirt made almost entirely of mesh and a bra in a Walgreens. why ELSE would they do it when they say they just wear it because they "like to" in dead winter. I'm also referring to clubs here. I'm amazed at some of the stuff some people pass off as "clothes".
Sometimes I get nervous because something I'm wearing shows off a bit of cleavage and I don't really want people to automatically judge me. Some women just go `Fuck it that makes me feel good and look good so bollocks to whatever people think`, honestly I wish I had that mentality sometimes instead of worrying. Honestly, I think you think too much about it, if it makes them feel good then they are gonna wear it. If you want to look and don't wanna get moaned at, do it discreetly. They are not dressed up specifically for you.

Well it's unfortunate that someone would judge you negatively just for wearing a shirt with a bit of cleavage. I mean, people will. People will judge anything. But at least you don't have to care about what they think.

Anyway, watchu mean "Want to look"? I think you've missed a bit of the convo. It's not about wanting to look, when I turn around and there's a girl with her breasts pouring out I may just look without realizing it (not stared mind you, just glance for less than a second). I mean, maybe they just liked the feel of the freezing winter air on their exposed chest. Dunno. Regardless, clearly they're not dressed up just for me, nor was I under the delusion that they were, but I wouldn't be too skeptical that they were trying to elicit some kind of attention. The one who I asked couldn't give me a straight answer. I haven't really thought about this in months though, so I wouldn't say I think about it too much.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Phasmal said:
If you want to look and don't wanna get moaned at, do it discreetly.
Pretty much this. The general rule of sneaking a peek at cleavage is exactly that. You sneak a peek. You're not supposed to stare at it like a caveman watching his first eclipse.

axlryder said:
The one who I asked couldn't give me a straight answer.
You didn't seriously ask some strange girl why she was wearing a revealing top if she didn't want attention did you? That's a hardcore socially awkward penguin moment if I've ever heard one.
 

axlryder

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BloatedGuppy said:
Phasmal said:
If you want to look and don't wanna get moaned at, do it discreetly.
Pretty much this. The general rule of sneaking a peek at cleavage is exactly that. You sneak a peek. You're not supposed to stare at it like a caveman watching his first eclipse.
Haha, I admit it, when I see breasts I go into a deep trance and start gargling at the mouth. It's a terrible condition known as mammarstaritis.
 

axlryder

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BloatedGuppy said:
Phasmal said:
If you want to look and don't wanna get moaned at, do it discreetly.
Pretty much this. The general rule of sneaking a peek at cleavage is exactly that. You sneak a peek. You're not supposed to stare at it like a caveman watching his first eclipse.

axlryder said:
The one who I asked couldn't give me a straight answer.
You didn't seriously ask some strange girl why she was wearing a revealing top if she didn't want attention did you? That's a hardcore socially awkward penguin moment if I've ever heard one.
It was at a gas station, I was on a trip, I glanced at a random girl, she bawked, I was like "feck it, I'll ask". I'm a suave ************ let me tell you.

Also, sorry for the double quoting, I didn't realize that was an edit from the same post.
 

axlryder

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Chemical Alia said:
mattttherman3 said:
I agree with everything the OP said, but as a rule, if I can fit a wrist in my hand whereas my index finger and thumb can touch easily, I generally assume an eating disorder(if they are fully grown people over 5 foot 5)
Are you kidding? I'm 5'7", 134 lbs. (the exact target weight for my height) and can fit my wrist between my thumb and all fingers but my pinky, even with my small woman hands.

That doesn't indicate an eating disorder, that indicates a petite bone structure. /:

In fact, 136 lbs. is the high end of the target weight with a small build. Before I started working out a few months ago, my body fat ratio was higher than it should be.
Well I'm a dude, 5'8' and 148 pounds. fairly built. I can fit my thumb and pinky around my wrist :<

I think you might just need a better rule of thumb (this is the part where you look at my avi)