Woman robs man on side of road, Two "samaritans" help her because she's a woman

[Treblaine]

I mean, it says, "The victim said he tried to prevent his assailant from leaving the area, engaging her in a physical struggle" so the robbery victim was the person who initiated the physical encounter.

But it is totally justified to detain a thief making off with your valuable belongings. It's not like he was shooting or stabbing her, he was trying to detain her. This is what citizen's arrest is for. thieves could never be stopped if you depend on a policeman being RIGHT THERE at that exact moment to catch thieves in the act.

If it is wrong to stop the crime of theft with proportional physical force then is it not also wrong to stop an assault, which is a crime it there isn't a reasonable legal necessity such as preventing a crime being committed.

And it's not really fair to say that snatching items off someone yet the person doing the natural, legal and expected thing of directly preventing a crime committed against them is the one "initiating" anything. The psychical encounter was initiated by the thief.

Flips the genders around, if a guy is grabbing a woman's bag and she resists, did she "initiate" the physical struggle? Or should the victim by default be passive and they deserve everything bad they get if you do resist?

Though I'll admit, we are missing a lot of details. Why did the victim not say sooner that she was a thief? Were there other extenuating circumstances like did the woman actively trick anyone by calling for help and pretending to be a sort of victim.

 

[Treblaine]

Care to back that up with some statistics? Or other facts?
EDIT:
Sorry, meant "sources"

Sure:

U.S. Department of Justice 2009 National Former Prisoners Survey puts the number at slightly below 10% for all forms of sexual assault.

According to the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission (http://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archive/nprec/20090820155502/http://nprec.us/files/pdfs/NPREC_FinalReport.PDF) the number is anywhere from 6.5% in some prisons to 15.9% in others.

The Justice Department puts the number at 4.7% but admits it could be "even twice that."

Cindy Struckman-Johnson et al., Sexual Coercion Reported by Men and Women in Prison, 33 J. Sex Res. 67 (1996); see also Cindy Struckman-Johnson & David Struckman-Johnson, Sexual Coercion Rates in Seven Midwestern Prison Facilities for Men, 80 Prison J. 379, 383 (2000)

So we'll say 10% at most for prison sexual assault.



Now for women:

20% of women on college campuses will endure some kind of sexual assault before they leave school.

Douglas, K. A.; et al. (1997). "Results from the 1995 national college health risk behavior survey.". Journal of American College Health 46: 55?66.

The National Institute of Justice and the Bureau of Justice Statistics put the number "anywhere between one fifth and one quarter." https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Is that enough for you? My statement that women are more likely to be victims of sexual violence in the real world than men in prison is correct by a large margin.

These statistics are hard to pin down exactly but there is essentially no possible way to not see a higher prevalence of sexual assault amongst women, even if you to
ok the highest prison statistics and the lowest general rape statistics.

Well, I still have a few gripes.

According to the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission (http://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archive/nprec/20090820155502/http://nprec.us/files/pdfs/NPREC_FinalReport.PDF) the number is anywhere from 6.5% in some prisons to 15.9% in others.
Something that could also lower the number:

Something to consider: This was the percentage of rapes per year. In some facilities, 15.9% of all inmates experienced rape per year
+: 55% of all reported cases of sexual assault aren't substantiated by the staff, meaning they won't influence official rape statistics.

Also, the "low" number is only for rapes in the 12 months time period prior to the survey.
And 15% of all inmates in ONE YEAR does not sound like a small number anymore. Nor does 10%.


Whilst the women were asked for rape having taken place during their lifetime.

Studies for annual rape of women go with 5%
^ Mohler-Kuo, M.; Dowdall, G., Koss, M., Weschler, H (2004). "Correlates of Rape while Intoxicated in a National Sample of College Women". Journal of Studies on Alcohol 65: 37?45..
^ Kilpatrick, Dean. "Drug Facilitated, Incapacitated, and Forcible Rape: A National Study".


In the end, I would still despute the claim that women have it better than men in correctional facilites, even when it comes to sexual assault, as several studies indicate, that men in facilities have it as bad as women, if not worse, but absolute numbers for a direct comparison are quite hard to come by. I have not found absolute numbers for prisoners raped, which makes a direct comparison nigh impossible.

Yeah, those were some shoddy statistics comparing "in the last year" with "in your entire life". One is 20-30 year longer period than the other. It's like asking two different groups how many rolled a double-6 on their dice but the first group only rolled their dice once and the other rolled their dice 25 times.

Either way it's close enough that it doesn't matter for the purpose of the discussion. What is the point in splitting hairs on relative probability when dealing with something so awful, if anything like this were to ever happen to you - male or female - it wouldn't matter about the statistics.

The point is rape is not a "something horrible that happens to women", it's a something horrible that happens to PEOPLE! What matters is that overall male-rape is as statistically significant prevalence as female-rape, and it would be pointlessly macabre to try to compare which gender gets "raped more often". The point is men - overall - can conceive of what is it like to be target for rape, but also murder, assault and other forms of violent exploitation.

It's not fair for any woman to make a blanked statement like "men could never understand" with some reasoning like they NEVER suffer like they do or could.

A note on male rape:
I don't think many men want to talk about it as it is totally inappropriately mixed up with consensual homosexuality, and that a man's fear of being raped is erroneously conflated with a fear of homosexuality, homophobia. But studies of rapists in prison show that men who rape men usually don't consider themselves homosexual, they don't love men, they don't have any passionate relationship with men, they just use them for selfish sexual pleasure and sense of domination and power. This is only superficially related and not in the same category as men who mutually seek other men for passionate relationship.

The type of people who rape women are equally the type to rape men given the opportunity and circumstances, it's the same violent and selfish exploitation, it's quite unrelated to the kind of courtship you'd get with healthy and reciprocal heterosexual or homosexual relationships.

 

[Treblaine]

I think this discussion is getting way too much into specifics that we don't know.

Clearly this was a cluster-fuck based on a misunderstanding, it may have spawned from sexism but ultimately this is a matter of poor communication. Those who intervened should have asked what the hell was going on before intervening and be a bit more clued in when the woman runs away with a case.

This happens all the time and not just with women thieves, people get involved and make false assumptions. I assure you this has probably also happened with two males fighting and a passer by will make a snap judgement at who is the one defending themselves and assumed the victim is the perpetrator.

See if you want to be "a hero" and get involved you have to be SMART! This is why the law is really reluctant and often discouraging of people getting involved in stopping crime, it takes actually a LOT OF TRAINING to know how to handle these situations properly, like the Treyvon Martin case. Police say to citizens to observe and report for a reason, and discourage any violent action unless you really have no choice like if cornered.

Look at what police do, when they turn up they tell everyone to stand fast and EVERYONE GETS ARRESTED! Even the victim, they may not be in handcuffs but they are under arrest, they can't go anywhere till the police have sorted out what happened and even if you were totally in the right you wil likely remain under arrest and required to give a statement at the police station. Police carry zip-ties rather than cuffs as they need to arrest so many people at a time they'd have to carry several kilos of handcuffs.

 

[waj9876]

Ah. Misleading titles that aren't even close to what the actual story is about. Good ol' Escapist, huh?

Meh. I'm torn between what to think. On one hand, yeah, society needs to fucking realize that women can commit crimes too. On the other...I can kind of see why they did what they did. It was a statistical thing. In all seriousness, if you see two people of different genders fighting for money, and it's obvious that one of them was robbed, but not which, it would most likely be the man.

 

[Faraja]

[What would have clued them in? How about not assuming because there's a man and a woman fighting, that the man must have caused it?

That's why this entire thing happened, they didn't bother asking. They didn't even try to stop both of them and ask, they both just jumped the man, and watched a thief run away. From the article it even sounds a bit like the woman knew exactly what was about to happen and used it to her advantage.

And sure, if they had saved her, that would've been great, but they didn't. Because they just assumed there is no possible way she could be the one in the wrong.

I sincerely hope that the next time you need help, any bystanders wait for identification and authorization in triplicate before the consider intervening. While you're waiting for people to tell you what's going on (because thief's are such trustworthy people) for the sake of not being sexist, the victim could have suffered all sorts of damage.

Seriously, only the mega ponces would see a man struggling with a woman, and stop to think if maybe the woman invited the struggle.

 

[Faraja]

Men are more violent than woman. Fact

Men might be violent more often then women, but I've seen cat fights. No thanks.

 

[UberNoodle]

All the people crying sexism here are likely the same people who'll rant till they're blue in the face the next time a game gets accused of being racist or sexist or something. In the mind of an prejudice person, the benefit of the doubt never gets applied to the 'other'. The Other is never granted the benefit of diversity of thought or motive. The Other is nothing but a caricature, an archetype fulfilling a predetermined bias.

Yes, this mess up was 'sexist' like Resident Evil 5 was racist, like Bayonetta was sexist, like ... screw this inane fixation these boards have on gender issues. It all amounts to guys pointing the finger every chance they get to say, "SEE, women do it too! Woe to us men! It7s all a big conspiracy!" Well, if you think that way, take a long hard look at your life and make a list of where this supposed anti-male sexism which you all suffer so indignantly isn't all just bruises to your ego. Then, if empathy is still a skill you possess, consider what women have gone through and are still going through in our culture and others, BECAUSE they are women. If you are honest to yourself, you'll realise that your 'woe is us poor oppressed men' schtick is complete utter bullshit.

And it doesn't help that in order to counter this tide, the other side has to become just as irrational. Of course, if you're a guy and you dare disagree with a men's righter, you're dismissed as a 'white knight'. Because you have no experience being a women, so how can your opinion be valid. Well, doesn't that go for the men's righters too? Apparently not.

And again, these threads are nothing more than a bias looking for vindication. Nobody has ever said that women are the only gender on the receiving end of sexism, rape, assault, prejudice etc. The whole men's righter movement is a straw man, and this thread is the same in a stealthier passive aggressive manner.

The two guys saw a fight and they stopped it. If the man got the upper hand, it was more likely the women would have come out of the fight far worse off. The two guys aren't cops. They have no responsibility to solve this crime. They stopped a fight, stopped somebody going to the hospital, thief or not. If stealing means you deserve to potentially hospitalised (but only of your a woman and your story scratches the itch of some men's righter with a chip on his shoulder), why have cops and courts and prisons at all?

We should have just agreed that women are evil conniving whores wanting to take more than they give and screw us men over. Then maybe we could come to these forums each day and NOT see another damn gender thread.

 

[UberNoodle]

We should have just agreed that women are evil conniving whores wanting to take more than they give and screw us men over. Then maybe we could come to these forums each day and NOT see another damn gender thread. F**K!

I know you're joking and all, I even joke at my expense a lot, but that was a little much lol.

But I feel you! Sexism is an important issue that's been misrepresented and argued wrong so many times, it's ruined the actual attempts of people trying to make positive change. People are just sick of hearing about it, so real sexism and real problems are going to be ignored, groaned at or have copy past replies thrown at them.

I was a little pissed off. I wish I could filter out any thread with a gtender related heading. It's not that I have my head in the sand. It's that the issues get argued with as much objectivity as a Bioware game's supposed suckitude.

 

[aattss]

So, this is why some countries make it so that you can only vigilante into a crime if either

1. The crime is on you.

or

2. Someone is performing a rape or a crime that leads a risk of death.

Not that the 2 guys should be arrested for trying to help. They were acting out of the goodness of their hearts.

Btw I agree with the bias of women over men. I'm pretty sure it's a self-fuffilling prophecy, not to mention that it's sexist and has no place in court. It's like saying that hitting a guy with muscles is better than hitting a skinny guy with muscles. Unless there's an actual difference of the injury in medical terms (i.e. how much it costs the guy to get it fixed), don't.

Edit:http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20120820/NJNEWS/308200041/Plainfield-police-Would-good-Samaritans-inadvertently-allow-robbery-suspect-escape?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1

Perhaps the good samaritans were just biased against drunk people who spoke limited english.

 

[NotALiberal]

snip

I'm a completely reasonable person, thank you very much. Though, if it was the other way round, I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread would be calling "SEE MISOGYNY AND SEXISM ARE RAMPANT PROBLEMS!!!!11!"

I agree with you though, people calling this sexist are fucking stupid, it was a badly made split second decision. I would've personally tried to assess the situation, and help out whomever to the best of my knowledge, was the "victim", but hindsight being 20/20 and all that jazz.

 

[00slash00]

if he does that exclusively or primarily for women, then he is being chivalrous

Actually, I think he's been rather rude by ignoring all the men.

Hold the door open because I have a vagina, but not for him because he doesn't? I will not have it!

exactly, chivalry, as i see it, is very rude. by only being polite to women chivalry simultaneously sends the message the women arent able to take care of themselves and that men arent pretty enough to matter

 

[hooksashands]

Get this worthless Tumblr "Social Justice" shit out of here, please. I'm done tolerating drivel on the front page about sexism/gender disparity and people using Off-Topic as a place to introduce us to their psychological baggage and one-sided ideologies. Just fucking stop. Stop trying to turn these forums into Livejournal.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Care to back that up with some statistics? Or other facts?
EDIT:
Sorry, meant "sources"

Sure:

U.S. Department of Justice 2009 National Former Prisoners Survey puts the number at slightly below 10% for all forms of sexual assault.

According to the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission (http://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archive/nprec/20090820155502/http://nprec.us/files/pdfs/NPREC_FinalReport.PDF) the number is anywhere from 6.5% in some prisons to 15.9% in others.

The Justice Department puts the number at 4.7% but admits it could be "even twice that."

Cindy Struckman-Johnson et al., Sexual Coercion Reported by Men and Women in Prison, 33 J. Sex Res. 67 (1996); see also Cindy Struckman-Johnson & David Struckman-Johnson, Sexual Coercion Rates in Seven Midwestern Prison Facilities for Men, 80 Prison J. 379, 383 (2000)

So we'll say 10% at most for prison sexual assault.



Now for women:

20% of women on college campuses will endure some kind of sexual assault before they leave school.

Douglas, K. A.; et al. (1997). "Results from the 1995 national college health risk behavior survey.". Journal of American College Health 46: 55?66.

The National Institute of Justice and the Bureau of Justice Statistics put the number "anywhere between one fifth and one quarter." https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Is that enough for you? My statement that women are more likely to be victims of sexual violence in the real world than men in prison is correct by a large margin.

These statistics are hard to pin down exactly but there is essentially no possible way to not see a higher prevalence of sexual assault amongst women, even if you to
ok the highest prison statistics and the lowest general rape statistics.

Well, I still have a few gripes.

According to the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission (http://cybercemetery.unt.edu/archive/nprec/20090820155502/http://nprec.us/files/pdfs/NPREC_FinalReport.PDF) the number is anywhere from 6.5% in some prisons to 15.9% in others.
Something that could also lower the number:

Something to consider: This was the percentage of rapes per year. In some facilities, 15.9% of all inmates experienced rape per year
+: 55% of all reported cases of sexual assault aren't substantiated by the staff, meaning they won't influence official rape statistics.

Also, the "low" number is only for rapes in the 12 months time period prior to the survey.
And 15% of all inmates in ONE YEAR does not sound like a small number anymore. Nor does 10%.


Whilst the women were asked for rape having taken place during their lifetime.

Studies for annual rape of women go with 5%
^ Mohler-Kuo, M.; Dowdall, G., Koss, M., Weschler, H (2004). "Correlates of Rape while Intoxicated in a National Sample of College Women". Journal of Studies on Alcohol 65: 37?45..
^ Kilpatrick, Dean. "Drug Facilitated, Incapacitated, and Forcible Rape: A National Study".


In the end, I would still despute the claim that women have it better than men in correctional facilites, even when it comes to sexual assault, as several studies indicate, that men in facilities have it as bad as women, if not worse, but absolute numbers for a direct comparison are quite hard to come by. I have not found absolute numbers for prisoners raped, which makes a direct comparison nigh impossible.

Yeah, those were some shoddy statistics comparing "in the last year" with "in your entire life". One is 20-30 year longer period than the other. It's like asking two different groups how many rolled a double-6 on their dice but the first group only rolled their dice once and the other rolled their dice 25 times.

Either way it's close enough that it doesn't matter for the purpose of the discussion. What is the point in splitting hairs on relative probability when dealing with something so awful, if anything like this were to ever happen to you - male or female - it wouldn't matter about the statistics.

The point is rape is not a "something horrible that happens to women", it's a something horrible that happens to PEOPLE! What matters is that overall male-rape is as statistically significant prevalence as female-rape, and it would be pointlessly macabre to try to compare which gender gets "raped more often". The point is men - overall - can conceive of what is it like to be target for rape, but also murder, assault and other forms of violent exploitation.

It's not fair for any woman to make a blanked statement like "men could never understand" with some reasoning like they NEVER suffer like they do or could.

A note on male rape:
I don't think many men want to talk about it as it is totally inappropriately mixed up with consensual homosexuality, and that a man's fear of being raped is erroneously conflated with a fear of homosexuality, homophobia. But studies of rapists in prison show that men who rape men usually don't consider themselves homosexual, they don't love men, they don't have any passionate relationship with men, they just use them for selfish sexual pleasure and sense of domination and power. This is only superficially related and not in the same category as men who mutually seek other men for passionate relationship.

The type of people who rape women are equally the type to rape men given the opportunity and circumstances, it's the same violent and selfish exploitation, it's quite unrelated to the kind of courtship you'd get with healthy and reciprocal heterosexual or homosexual relationships.

Yeah, it was kind of splitting hairs in the end, but I just can't let topics go sometimes.
Rape is always horrible, I think we can all agree on that.
And the type of people that rape others are rarely in it for purely sexual reasons, but mostly for reasons of power and dominance over others.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

if he does that exclusively or primarily for women, then he is being chivalrous

Actually, I think he's been rather rude by ignoring all the men.

Hold the door open because I have a vagina, but not for him because he doesn't? I will not have it!

exactly, chivalry, as i see it, is very rude. by only being polite to women chivalry simultaneously sends the message the women arent able to take care of themselves and that men arent pretty enough to matter

Well, if the motivation for chivalry IS sexual interest, then I understand why many heterosexual males are only especially chivalrous to women.