Women Belonging in Video Games: #1ReasonToBe

Rowan Kaiser

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Women Belonging in Video Games: #1ReasonToBe

At GDC 2014 this year, many game designers spoke out about what it means to belong in an industry that all too often judges or excludes them based on their identity or gender.

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PirateRose

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I like that they present the idea as if it's not men's fault entirely like some kind of evil, diabolical plan. It's a general social fault.

Society decided women weren't good for this stuff. Social influences cause several women to think to themselves that their ideas aren't good enough. In turn, many men are influenced by society to believe women aren't good enough. So many men end up being harsher critics on women, even unintentionally being harsher critics. Women's creativity and talent end up limited by themselves and men alike, even though the great potential is there.
 

rorychief

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'There, another remarkable undergraduate, Jennifer Allaway, discussed how she wanted to examine the data behind the issue of sexism'

Does it bother anyone else when sympathetic articles go a little overboard in the unbridled gushing awe department and start patronizing women who perform jobs that women have been performing at for decades by referring to them as remarkable or brave for no particular reason other than them not being a housewife, like they've had to overcome some disability to leave the house. It's just weird and there has to be a better way of relaying the info without sounding so surprised by the existence of people who quite openly go about their business everywhere and everyday.
 

softclocks

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These affirmative action panels really are incredibly touching.

PirateRose said:
Society decided women weren't good for this stuff. Social influences cause several women to think to themselves that their ideas aren't good enough. In turn, many men are influenced by society to believe women aren't good enough. So many men end up being harsher critics on women, even unintentionally being harsher critics. Women's creativity and talent end up limited by themselves and men alike, even though the great potential is there.
The hell does this mean? If it's not men but "society" then it's still men, only it's men AND women.

Does anybody in this enlightened age honestly believe that women aren't "good enough" in certain areas? Well, what areas are we talking about when we say "good enough"? And why would these oudated notions cause some men to criticize women more harshly?
 

UberPubert

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rorychief said:
Does it bother anyone else when sympathetic articles go a little overboard in the unbridled gushing awe department and start patronizing women who perform jobs that women have been performing at for decades by referring to them as remarkable or brave for no particular reason other than them not being a housewife, like they've had to overcome some disability to leave the house. It's just weird and there has to be a better way of relaying the info without sounding so surprised by the existence of people who quite openly go about their business everywhere and everyday.
To be honest I found the wording and tone of most of the article to be somewhere between confusing and unsettling. In one sentence it's reporting what happened at the panel, then a quote from the speaker follows, and then there's a line advocating what the person just said and then continuing to make statements where it's not clear whether it's from the author or the speaker, and all the advocacy comes off as more than a little over-the-top and cheesey.

I don't mean to disparage the panel or the women speaking there, I'm glad they discovered a common ground and found success in their own ways, but this over-enthusiasm seems to devalue - if not the greater industry at large - then certainly the women in it who have come before. "By gosh, how did they do it back in ye olden days of the nineteen eighties?" By being just as talented and hardworking as the people beside them, things haven't changed *that* much.
 

VVThoughtBox

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I thought the lack of women in video games could be explained by two things: Lack of interest and lack of resources.

Lack of Interest: Women are just not interested in designing video games yet. Making or designing video games is still not seen as an attractive career that can provide a steady paycheck and health benefits. If women do show an interest in video games, then they must face their natural enemy: The family. How does a women successfully convince her parents and old Nana and Pepop that a career in video games is worth it? Her parents and grandparents don't video games and don't see what makes video games good. So if she tell them that you'll become a video game designer, they'll laugh and say become a doctor, lawyer, or something with business. Why? Because they think that you have a better chance getting a job after graduating from college if you go into those three fields than becoming a video game designer (If you did successfully convince your parents and grandparents that a career in video games is worth it, then congratulations. Also, please exchange tips with other aspiring game developers on how to convince family members that working in the video games industry is totally worth it.) To be fair, this attitude is slowly changing and more women are entering the industry.

Lack of Resources: Women don't have the resources to go to college to study the courses necessary to become a designer. They rely on financial aid, grants, scholarships, and student loans to pay for college. Those programs are usually in danger of being cut because the government doesn't know how to balance a budget, and some elected officials don't like the idea of providing government services to those in need of it. Some women have to go the extra mile and get a job to cover books, dorms, and food because they don't get enough money from the grant or scholarship. Assuming she clears that hurdle, then the woman has to face another obstacle: College itself. With the pricing of tuition rising every semester, degree requirements changing, the price of text books and supplies rising, is going to college to study video games really worth it? (I wish I can say something about the professors, but I can't figure out what's wrong with them. Their teaching styles I guess.)

Before we can even think about encouraging women to become game designers. We must provide a steady amount of resources and interest in the field. Develop scholarship, grants, and programs that'll prepare them for the job. The same thing applies to minorities as well. You can't just march into a business, and force them to make changes without providing the resources. You gotta change how people see video games and provide resources. (I wish I can say something about the businesses, but I don't know enough about the industry to comment about it. PLus, I'm really tired.
 

josemlopes

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I get it but at the same time I dont get it. Things like this...

"Kipnis, who'd had ideas but never pitched, said she believed that she, and other women who didn't pitch, simply happened to not feel like pitching. "But if I'm honest with myself," she followed up with, "there was another reason I didn't pitch a game." There was a lack of confidence that her idea was good enough to be taken seriously. But the publicizing of the pitches helped her realize otherwise, when she spoke to her male co-workers. "I'd thought way more about my half-baked game than they had about theirs." So she made her pitch - and is now leading the development of Dear Leader. But this was more than just a personal story. Kipnis also gave strong, clear advice on how to give women and other under-represented people the space to express their creativity. These included office-wide creative days where everyone, no matter their role, is encouraged to discuss their ideas, alongside a general culture of giving everyone a voice."

... totally makes me not understand their point. First she is talking in behalf of every women in Double Fine while the problem that she had was lack of self confidence (something very personal), I have lack of self confidence too but Im not going to blame someone for it and then go all "But I'm better". You can be better but dont cross your arms and expect someone to agree with you, just prove it (she eventually did as it says in the story but its unfair to complain that you arent seen as something that you made no effort yet to achieve untill now).

Its all a shit load of mentality that for some reason no one wants any women near video games. Any women that gets shit for working with video games would just get different insults since people only complain after some actual shit happened, be it for women or men (there are women devs that dont get shit as there are male devs that do, its all about how well you do your work)
 

VVThoughtBox

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josemlopes said:
I get it but at the same time I dont get it. Things like this...

"Kipnis, who'd had ideas but never pitched, said she believed that she, and other women who didn't pitch, simply happened to not feel like pitching. "But if I'm honest with myself," she followed up with, "there was another reason I didn't pitch a game." There was a lack of confidence that her idea was good enough to be taken seriously. But the publicizing of the pitches helped her realize otherwise, when she spoke to her male co-workers. "I'd thought way more about my half-baked game than they had about theirs." So she made her pitch - and is now leading the development of Dear Leader. But this was more than just a personal story. Kipnis also gave strong, clear advice on how to give women and other under-represented people the space to express their creativity. These included office-wide creative days where everyone, no matter their role, is encouraged to discuss their ideas, alongside a general culture of giving everyone a voice."

... totally makes me not understand their point. First she is talking in behalf of every women in Double Fine while the problem that she had was lack of self confidence (something very personal), I have lack of self confidence too but Im not going to blame someone for it and then go all "But I'm better". You can be better but dont cross your arms and expect someone to agree with you, just prove it (she eventually did as it says in the story but its unfair to complain that you arent seen as something that you made no effort yet to achieve untill now).

Its all a shit load of mentality that for some reason no one wants any women near video games. Any women that gets shit for working with video games would just get different insults since people only complain after some actual shit happened, be it for women or men (there are women devs that dont get shit as there are male devs that do, its all about how well you do your work)
I think I get it. I think it what happened to her had less to do sexism and more to do with lack of self-confidence. Anna don't speak up, or pitch her ideas to others because she was afraid of being rejected by others. It's technically normal to have ideas or pitches rejected, and it's usually up to the person to strengthen and improve their ideas so that it sounds good. I'm starting to doubt the whole sexism in video games thing. I don't see any discriminatory practices that would keep women out of the industry. At worst, it sounds like their ideas are being rejected for not being good enough.
 

RealRT

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More female devs and gamers? A good thing. Less sexism and more games that are for everyone? A good thing. This overly gushing and poorly written article? Not a good thing.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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I'm going to come back to this article and read it again in the morning, fresh eyes and all - but honestly I'm having some trouble with it right now. Not the subject matter, but the presentation -- it's bouncing all over and I feel like I've gotten very incomplete and fragmented coverage of a larger thing given in piecemeal all mushed together. I know these get edited - is this something that got cut up for size and maybe parts are missing that would make this more cohesive? It's a pretty long article, but I'd rather have it longer and be able to follow it.

I'll post back when I've read it again in case this is just me being too punchy from a long day to be reading right, but this was a topic I'm interested in and so I went to read this but, yeah having a really hard time with it. Just putting that out there.
 

Nexxis

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I wish I was there to see the panels, to be honest. It makes me feel good to see women come forward about their experiences (for good or for bad). I hope I get to meet them some day. Hopefully at a time when diversity in the industry can be seen as a natural thing and not as something that needs to be over-analyzed.
 

Jhonie

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VVThoughtBox said:
I thought the lack of women in video games could be explained by two things: Lack of interest and lack of resources.

Lack of Interest: Women are just not interested in designing video games yet. Making or designing video games is still not seen as an attractive career that can provide a steady paycheck and health benefits. If women do show an interest in video games, then they must face their natural enemy: The family. How does a women successfully convince her parents and old Nana and Pepop that a career in video games is worth it? Her parents and grandparents don't video games and don't see what makes video games good. So if she tell them that you'll become a video game designer, they'll laugh and say become a doctor, lawyer, or something with business. Why? Because they think that you have a better chance getting a job after graduating from college if you go into those three fields than becoming a video game designer (If you did successfully convince your parents and grandparents that a career in video games is worth it, then congratulations. Also, please exchange tips with other aspiring game developers on how to convince family members that working in the video games industry is totally worth it.) To be fair, this attitude is slowly changing and more women are entering the industry.

Lack of Resources: Women don't have the resources to go to college to study the courses necessary to become a designer. They rely on financial aid, grants, scholarships, and student loans to pay for college. Those programs are usually in danger of being cut because the government doesn't know how to balance a budget, and some elected officials don't like the idea of providing government services to those in need of it. Some women have to go the extra mile and get a job to cover books, dorms, and food because they don't get enough money from the grant or scholarship. Assuming she clears that hurdle, then the woman has to face another obstacle: College itself. With the pricing of tuition rising every semester, degree requirements changing, the price of text books and supplies rising, is going to college to study video games really worth it? (I wish I can say something about the professors, but I can't figure out what's wrong with them. Their teaching styles I guess.)

Before we can even think about encouraging women to become game designers. We must provide a steady amount of resources and interest in the field. Develop scholarship, grants, and programs that'll prepare them for the job. The same thing applies to minorities as well. You can't just march into a business, and force them to make changes without providing the resources. You gotta change how people see video games and provide resources. (I wish I can say something about the businesses, but I don't know enough about the industry to comment about it. PLus, I'm really tired.
...I don't get it. Why are these supposedly given circumstances any different for men? Are you telling me that men get more money for school than women? Why is it a given that women listen more to their family's opinions than men? I just don't see why these problems are problems for women only. Could you explain that to me? Because these circumstances you've listed all seem to be based on some admittedly rather sexist stereotyping, and I don't think that's what you were going for...
 

UberPubert

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VVThoughtBox said:
I thought the lack of women in video games could be explained by two things: Lack of interest and lack of resources.
Both of these points seem really sexist in a troubling way, especially when flipped. Men aren't looking for stable jobs with health benefits? Men don't have family expectations to live up to? Men don't have to pay for college? Even your closing statement is leaning on the side of troubling, "we must provide a steady amount of resources and interest in the field"...must we? Do women really need the leg-up that badly?
 

VVThoughtBox

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Jhonie said:
VVThoughtBox said:
I thought the lack of women in video games could be explained by two things: Lack of interest and lack of resources.

Lack of Interest: Women are just not interested in designing video games yet. Making or designing video games is still not seen as an attractive career that can provide a steady paycheck and health benefits. If women do show an interest in video games, then they must face their natural enemy: The family. How does a women successfully convince her parents and old Nana and Pepop that a career in video games is worth it? Her parents and grandparents don't video games and don't see what makes video games good. So if she tell them that you'll become a video game designer, they'll laugh and say become a doctor, lawyer, or something with business. Why? Because they think that you have a better chance getting a job after graduating from college if you go into those three fields than becoming a video game designer (If you did successfully convince your parents and grandparents that a career in video games is worth it, then congratulations. Also, please exchange tips with other aspiring game developers on how to convince family members that working in the video games industry is totally worth it.) To be fair, this attitude is slowly changing and more women are entering the industry.

Lack of Resources: Women don't have the resources to go to college to study the courses necessary to become a designer. They rely on financial aid, grants, scholarships, and student loans to pay for college. Those programs are usually in danger of being cut because the government doesn't know how to balance a budget, and some elected officials don't like the idea of providing government services to those in need of it. Some women have to go the extra mile and get a job to cover books, dorms, and food because they don't get enough money from the grant or scholarship. Assuming she clears that hurdle, then the woman has to face another obstacle: College itself. With the pricing of tuition rising every semester, degree requirements changing, the price of text books and supplies rising, is going to college to study video games really worth it? (I wish I can say something about the professors, but I can't figure out what's wrong with them. Their teaching styles I guess.)

Before we can even think about encouraging women to become game designers. We must provide a steady amount of resources and interest in the field. Develop scholarship, grants, and programs that'll prepare them for the job. The same thing applies to minorities as well. You can't just march into a business, and force them to make changes without providing the resources. You gotta change how people see video games and provide resources. (I wish I can say something about the businesses, but I don't know enough about the industry to comment about it. PLus, I'm really tired.
...I don't get it. Why are these supposedly given circumstances any different for men? Are you telling me that men get more money for school than women? Why is it a given that women listen more to their family's opinions than men? I just don't see why these problems are problems for women only. Could you explain that to me? Because these circumstances you've listed all seem to be based on some admittedly rather sexist stereotyping, and I don't think that's what you were going for...
You're missing the big picture. Men do go to college on financial aid, scholarship, grants, and student loans. Men do have have to convince their family members that their career choice is worth it. I'm trying to say that women need those resources and have to be convincing about designing game being worth it to family members. Video games are still a new medium. Grandparents and Parents didn't have Super Mario, or Halo when they were kids. You don't suddenly decide to become a video game designer, and apply to an expensive private college on a whim. You have to develop an interest first, research the field, research the college you want to a apply to, secure resources necessary, and most importantly plan.

How is this sexist stereotyping? If you were to ask a woman what's her chosen field? Do you hear most of them mentioning Game Designer? Or do you here a very diverse answer ranging from Liberal Arts, Nursing, Accounting, Criminal Justice, Child Psychology, Philosophy, and so on? Look, it's nice that more women are interested in video games, but the change isn't going to happen fast and suddenly. The movement is going to slowly build up momentum.
 

Jhonie

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VVThoughtBox said:
You're missing the big picture. Men do go to college on financial aid, scholarship, grants, and student loans. Men do have have to convince their family members that their career choice is worth it. I'm trying to say that women need those resources and have to be convincing about designing game being worth it to family members. Video games are still a new medium. Grandparents and Parents didn't have Super Mario, or Halo when they were kids. You don't suddenly decide to become a video game designer, and apply to an expensive private college on a whim. You have to develop an interest first, research the field, research the college you want to a apply to, secure resources necessary, and most importantly plan.

How is this sexist stereotyping? If you were to ask a woman what's her chosen field? Do you hear Game Designer being mentioned? Or do you here something diverse ranging from Liberal Arts, Nursing, Accounting, Criminal Justice, Child Psychology, Philosophy, and so on? Look, it's nice that more women are interested in video games, but the change isn't going to happen fast and suddenly. The movement is going to slowly build up momentum.
Well, the thing is, I AM a woman, and I am actually at this moment on the road to becoming a Game Designer. The thing about your post that I keep finding confusing and still do is that it seems you're trying to tell me that women have to convince their family to give their permission to pursuit such a career, while men do not need this permission/have a much easier time doing so. Implied, at least, since you're presenting it as a women exlusive problem. You're not saying it outright, but I can't help but see an implied "Women are less independant than men" and "Women consume more money than men" in your words, since they apparently have to convince their families to give their permission and have a tighter economy despite having access to the same base resources. One can also see it as if you're implying that men don't listen to their family and are irresponsible.

It's those implications that I find sexist and stereotyping. You probably didn't mean it like that, but it's what I keep seeing and I just can't see these issues as issues that actually exist, because these are issues that I myself, as a woman studying Game Design, have never encountered, so they just seem completely alien to me. Mind you, this might be because I'm a Swede and have grown up with different values and educational systems and all that, but still...

I am still not seeing why it's such a vastly bigger issue for women, though. :/
 

Schadrach

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softclocks said:
These affirmative action panels really are incredibly touching.

PirateRose said:
Society decided women weren't good for this stuff. Social influences cause several women to think to themselves that their ideas aren't good enough. In turn, many men are influenced by society to believe women aren't good enough. So many men end up being harsher critics on women, even unintentionally being harsher critics. Women's creativity and talent end up limited by themselves and men alike, even though the great potential is there.
The hell does this mean? If it's not men but "society" then it's still men, only it's men AND women.

Does anybody in this enlightened age honestly believe that women aren't "good enough" in certain areas? Well, what areas are we talking about when we say "good enough"? And why would these oudated notions cause some men to criticize women more harshly?
Eh, I just took it as a nicer way of describing what I like to call the "exclusion gap", where women are excluded from doing things if there aren't enough people providing positive support and encouragement that they are permitted, capable, etc whereas men are only excluded from doing things by being told that they aren't allowed to or having some tangible consequence held over them (and sometimes not even then).

Hence why women are excluded from studying STEM fields because they aren't being encouraged enough (though no one is actually stopping them) but men aren't excluded from, say, studying early childhood education (despite people actively discouraging them and acting as though any man interested in that field is necessarily a pedophile) because no one is actually barring them from it.

Jhonie said:
...I don't get it. Why are these supposedly given circumstances any different for men?
Because men are only stopped by being, well, stopped. Women are stopped if they don't receive enough positive feedback. I haven't quite figured out *why* this should be the case myself.

Jhonie said:
Are you telling me that men get more money for school than women?
It's actually the other way around. There are numerous scholarships created when women were a small minority of college students whose goal was to help "even the playing field" (for example, "diversity scholarships") that are limited to only women. Men are a minority of college students now, but we still have special women's scholarships.

VVThoughtBox said:
You're missing the big picture. Men do go to college on financial aid, scholarship, grants, and student loans. Men do have have to convince their family members that their career choice is worth it. I'm trying to say that women need those resources and have to be convincing about designing game being worth it to family members. Video games are still a new medium. Grandparents and Parents didn't have Super Mario, or Halo when they were kids. You don't suddenly decide to become a video game designer, and apply to an expensive private college on a whim. You have to develop an interest first, research the field, research the college you want to a apply to, secure resources necessary, and most importantly plan.
You are missing what she's getting at -- why is any of that woman specific? You say women need resources to be able to do it. What resources do the men have that the women don't? Why is it that women, specifically, need these resources in a way that men do not? Or are you saying that men already have these resources and women lack access to them? If the latter, exactly what resources and how are women cut off from them?
 

VVThoughtBox

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Jhonie said:
VVThoughtBox said:
You're missing the big picture. Men do go to college on financial aid, scholarship, grants, and student loans. Men do have have to convince their family members that their career choice is worth it. I'm trying to say that women need those resources and have to be convincing about designing game being worth it to family members. Video games are still a new medium. Grandparents and Parents didn't have Super Mario, or Halo when they were kids. You don't suddenly decide to become a video game designer, and apply to an expensive private college on a whim. You have to develop an interest first, research the field, research the college you want to a apply to, secure resources necessary, and most importantly plan.

How is this sexist stereotyping? If you were to ask a woman what's her chosen field? Do you hear Game Designer being mentioned? Or do you here something diverse ranging from Liberal Arts, Nursing, Accounting, Criminal Justice, Child Psychology, Philosophy, and so on? Look, it's nice that more women are interested in video games, but the change isn't going to happen fast and suddenly. The movement is going to slowly build up momentum.
Well, the thing is, I AM a woman, and I am actually at this moment on the road to becoming a Game Designer. The thing about your post that I keep finding confusing and still do is that it seems you're trying to tell me that women have to convince their family to give their permission to pursuit such a career, while men do not need this permission/have a much easier time doing so. Implied, at least, since you're presenting it as a women exlusive problem. You're not saying it outright, but I can't help but see an implied "Women are less independant than men" and "Women consume more money than men" in your words, since they apparently have to convince their families to give their permission and have a tighter economy despite having access to the same base resources. One can also see it as if you're implying that men don't listen to their family and are irresponsible.

It's those implications that I find sexist and stereotyping. You probably didn't mean it like that, but it's what I keep seeing and I just can't see these issues as issues that actually exist, because these are issues that I myself, as a woman studying Game Design, have never encountered, so they just seem completely alien to me. Mind you, this might be because I'm a Swede and have grown up with different values and educational systems and all that, but still...

I am still not seeing why it's such a vastly bigger issue for women, though. :/
Just because you are a woman and going to be a game designer, it doesn't automatically mean you know what other women are going through. Some parents aren't supportive of their son/daughter's career choices and might pressure their child into studying something else. Again, ask the average woman outside of the industry what her chosen field is? You're not going get a lot video game designers. Chances are, the answer would be different.
 

Kargathia

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softclocks said:
Does anybody in this enlightened age honestly believe that women aren't "good enough" in certain areas?
This merits a remarkably short answer.

Yes.

The entire reason for the #1ReasonToBe thingie is because you don't even need to look past your own interests (gaming) to find pretty much every flavour of gender discrimination imaginable.

Jhonie said:
Well, the thing is, I AM a woman, and I am actually at this moment on the road to becoming a Game Designer. The thing about your post that I keep finding confusing and still do is that it seems you're trying to tell me that women have to convince their family to give their permission to pursuit such a career, while men do not need this permission/have a much easier time doing so. Implied, at least, since you're presenting it as a women exlusive problem. You're not saying it outright, but I can't help but see an implied "Women are less independant than men" and "Women consume more money than men" in your words, since they apparently have to convince their families to give their permission and have a tighter economy despite having access to the same base resources. One can also see it as if you're implying that men don't listen to their family and are irresponsible.

It's those implications that I find sexist and stereotyping. You probably didn't mean it like that, but it's what I keep seeing and I just can't see these issues as issues that actually exist, because these are issues that I myself, as a woman studying Game Design, have never encountered, so they just seem completely alien to me. Mind you, this might be because I'm a Swede and have grown up with different values and educational systems and all that, but still...

I am still not seeing why it's such a vastly bigger issue for women, though. :/
While his wording seems to be somewhat... unfortunate, I believe there is a two-fold point being made.

Firstly: conditions for entry, and career quality (pay, conditions, hours) make a career in game design relatively unattractive as it is - and even more so for women, as they'd be the ones facing all that along with possible gender discrimination.

Secondly, (and this is an argument I partially disagree with), he poses that in order to close the gender participation gap in game design, one would not only need to convince potential designers, but also their parents.
Most people will be influenced considerably by their parents when it comes to their career choice. The amount of influence will be rather independent of gender, but as it stands, parents are less likely to consider Game Design a valid career choice for a girl. (And are less likely to have encouraged interests developing in that general direction.)

You being a Swede also is quite likely to influence personal experience. Judging by how well Sweden is doing on gender equality you wouldn't be far amiss to assume that everyone else has it worse.
However, I'm pretty unqualified to give any indication of how much worse, as I'm a guy (check) living in another one of these highly progressive countries (The Netherlands, check), currently on my way to become a software engineer (roughly 10% female students, check).
 

Robert Marrs

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Here we go again. Really not in the mood to go on and on about this so I will just sum up everything I would probably say in short hand. Nobody is keeping women out of games. We have equal opportunity in america but that should never mean equal outcomes. If people are discouraging you from entering a work maybe they just don't think its a good fit. Maybe they are just not cool people. I was discouraged from becoming a musician and from being a game developer and it ended up being for the better. The game industry isn't exactly a stable work position and I would probably discourage people in my life from entering it as it stands now. If it is in fact sexism that is keeping women out of desirable positions what sexism is keeping women out of the dirty and dangerous jobs vastly dominated my men that nobody really wants to do?

Men and women are in fact different. Gender is not entirely a social construct and on a biological level men and women are generally better at different things and interested in different things. There are exceptions of course but you can't really argue the science on differences in genders. Diversity can be a good thing but a lack of it is not always a bad thing and its presence does not always mean things will be better. Forcing diversity or trying to push for it will do nothing but create negativity because most people with common sense who live in the western world realize that we have the freedom to do whatever we want and if people can't overcome whatever social barriers they feel exist they are not cut out for it in the first place.


rehash, rehash, rehash just like this article.