Would the gaming industry be better off without dlc?

Cheesus Crust

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Rawne1980 said:
The only DLC I own is those that came with GOTY, Ultimate Editions or bundles.

I never buy DLC on it's own and even the games I buy with DLC included I got for bargain bin prices on Steam sales or Amazon.

What makes me chortle heartily are people who willingly pay for map packs for shooters. General gamers have been making their own maps for those kind of games for years and it's pretty well known they can be shat out in an hour or two yet people willingly throw money at these things.

Remember that comment a while ago (i'll hunt it down when I get chance) about EA charging a dollar for a reload in Battlefield?

It would work because people will pay.

I can't say DLC or Dev's that abuse DLC are "evil" because they are only doing what they get away with. If people didn't buy it, they wouldn't do it.

So DLC, especially terrible DLC, is the fault of the people that buy it not the people that make it.
This is the sort of terrible DLC that I have a problem with, but as you said it is in large part the buyer's fault.

EDIT An exception if its free, I mean if I recall correctly EA came out with free dlc for the multiplayer content of ME 3? Someone pls. correct me if I'm getting this wrong.

Somonah said:
Examples off the top of my head. Streetfighter X Tekken. Day 1 DLC where you had to pay to unlock characters. Mass Effect 3 did it with the prothean thing.

EDIT - The worst, though i haven't played it has got to be the Final Fantasy XIII-2 DLC where you have to buy the DLC to get the ending.
If the FF XIII-2 thing is true then yeah that probably is the shitiest thing ever.
 
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The nickel and diming shit, yes. But for actual downloadable-content that extends a game's life by several hours is a good thing. It's another product that can be sold, though in truth I favour the full expansion pack. I'd prefer to pay more for a good sized extension, than a little for an appetiser that fails to satisfy and makes me want more of something that doesn't exist.

But DLC is corrupted by the bastard players who pay £10 for a map pack. FFS shooters used to give maps away all the time, but Activision and their golden goose not only priced them, but priced them at insane levels and idiots buy them in droves. Now the price for DLC is set to stupid heights, publishers expectations so skewed because idiots by so little for so much money. That is good for Activision, bad for everyone else. Worst for the players who bought it for accepting such paltry content for such a hefty charge, when it used to be free.
 

The_Echo

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Somonah said:
As for not needing DLC, Square Enix called, they called you a liar.
Maybe I'm out of the loop a bit, but how often do SE-devved games have DLC? This means, not the games that are only published by them. EDIT: Just saw the post regarding XIII-2. I hate ending DLC. That's just... bad. But isn't XIII-2 bad anyway?

OT: DLC is pretty much the modern equivalent to going to the store and picking up and expansion pack. So, I think we'd be worse off without it. Sure, some companies abuse it or just use it poorly. But the thing is, it's all optional anyway.
 

Strazdas

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DLC as it used to be - expansion pack level content - no.
DLC as you have now - 20 dollars for 2 skins that you likely hate in 1 hours - yes.
 

Cheesus Crust

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Strazdas said:
DLC as it used to be - expansion pack level content - no.
DLC as you have now - 20 dollars for 2 skins that you likely hate in 1 hours - yes.
Caught me a bit off guard, your post was quite funny, kudos. haha
 

Strazdas

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Cheesus Crust said:
Strazdas said:
DLC as it used to be - expansion pack level content - no.
DLC as you have now - 20 dollars for 2 skins that you likely hate in 1 hours - yes.
Caught me a bit off guard, your post was quite funny, kudos. haha
mind elaborating?
 

Cheesus Crust

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Strazdas said:
Cheesus Crust said:
Strazdas said:
DLC as it used to be - expansion pack level content - no.
DLC as you have now - 20 dollars for 2 skins that you likely hate in 1 hours - yes.
Caught me a bit off guard, your post was quite funny, kudos. haha
mind elaborating?
When you said hate in 1 hour, I've sorta experienced something similar before. Like "This DLC is going to be so awesome!" 1 hour later "I just got ripped off". The fact that I can relate to what you said in such a condensed form I dunno, sorta made me chuckle.
 

Pink Gregory

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Let's talk about absolutely finishing, testing and polishing the game before we talk about extras...
 

DoPo

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PieBrotherTB said:
Let's talk about absolutely finishing, testing and polishing the game before we talk about extras...
Who's to say that the DLC can't be the finishing, testing, and polishing? Well, probably not the testing but the rest is game, though.
 

Blunderboy

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DoPo said:
This makes no sense to me. DLC is the natural evolution of what the gaming industry has had before calling it DLC. And it's inherently neither good or bad. Saying that DLC should be removed sounds wrong on two levels - one, it's removing stuff that has always been around. What are extra maps or skins a new thing now? Or, like, quests and stuff? Sure, there has been some slight adaptation to the modern times but everything is essentially the same as before - extra content for the game. Now it's downloadable because both the devs and the players can afford it. Second, were we to remove it, it would be due to the conceived notion that it's inherently "bad". What, are we going to remove, say, hammers now because they are bad? I mean, you can really hurt somebody with a hammer, even kill them, let's just ban all hammers. Or tape measures, same goes for them. What, are you saying that some people are capable of using them not harmfully? Yes, DLC is just a tool in the dev's toolbox. yes, it can be misused, but so can games, and pretty much all the parts of your gaming system. Heck, the very fact that you're considering DLC, means, you have Internet connection - you could do lots of harm with that. Or, you know, not.

Whether or not the industry gets better in any way if if DLC is removed, I can't really say, but I can say that it would be worse in many ways.
Well said DoPo. I'll agree with you.

I do get annoyed at the whining about DLC.

If you don't agree with it, don't buy it. And then let us make the decision on our own.
 

Pink Gregory

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DoPo said:
PieBrotherTB said:
Let's talk about absolutely finishing, testing and polishing the game before we talk about extras...
Who's to say that the DLC can't be the finishing, testing, and polishing? Well, probably not the testing but the rest is game, though.
Huh, I think I can agree with you there.

I'm certainly all for DLC that provide engaging experiences within (and sometimes without) the paramaters of an already engaging game.

It's just, with the bug addled state of quite a few modern releases, you start to wonder whether those resources would have been better spent in ironing out the bugs and issues, rather than designing and implementing go-faster stripes that will, if anything, need additional tweaking for compatibility.

But I suppose that's kinda relative to the release schedule.
 

Folji

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PieBrotherTB said:
DoPo said:
PieBrotherTB said:
Let's talk about absolutely finishing, testing and polishing the game before we talk about extras...
Who's to say that the DLC can't be the finishing, testing, and polishing? Well, probably not the testing but the rest is game, though.
Huh, I think I can agree with you there.

I'm certainly all for DLC that provide engaging experiences within (and sometimes without) the paramaters of an already engaging game.

It's just, with the bug addled state of quite a few modern releases, you start to wonder whether those resources would have been better spent in ironing out the bugs and issues, rather than designing and implementing go-faster stripes that will, if anything, need additional tweaking for compatibility.

But I suppose that's kinda relative to the release schedule.
We do have those moments with DLC these days, like with the From Ashes DLC for ME3, where the developer backs up their decision to make the DLC by saying the game was already packed up and in the publisher approval process, so making the DLC pretty much became a way to stay occupied with... something. Kinda hard to tweak and polish at that point, unless you're gonna go ahead and make the released product look a little bit weird by immediately putting out a bugfix patch, heh.
 

DoPo

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PieBrotherTB said:
It's just, with the bug addled state of quite a few modern releases
OK, I have a disagreement here but also an acknowledgement. So sort of like a clarification on that point, dunno. Game releases have been buggy for quite a while, it's not a modern thing. The whole reason why I don't get a game on day 1 or near is because of the buggy releases in the past - I just got used to waiting for several weeks, or maybe a month or two, since games could be from choppy to actually broken, and patches would be of varying quality, too. Even then, unstable connection meant I had to rely on either a friend, or a gaming magazine to put them on the CDs...so next month, maybe. So, simply put, buggy games are nothing new, nor are buggy releases.

Then again, you would have thought that after, like a decade, things should be better. And that's a decade for me, gaming has been going for more than this.

Then again again people are still struggling with delivering reasonably bug free software. But considering the gaming industry is behind on the general software...well, things don't look that promising.
 

Pink Gregory

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DoPo said:
a-keep yer hands off a' my blue suede snip
Oh I'm not meaning to suggest that older releases weren't bug-free; I guess that; especially in the AAA market, or even just in the market of physical releases; the developers and/or publishers would now have the ability to implement fixes, whereas six or seven years ago that was quite a drawn out and PC-exlusive process until this console generation. It's not necessarily that they choose not to do that, I mean, by the time they've got all the work dealing with the release done, supporting the game by patching it is going to end up being a money drain, regardless of the improvements that they make on the game, hence why DLC is perhaps more important to publishers post-release, in financial terms.

What seems strange is that upcoming DLC seems to be being used as a promotional tool either on release or within a week of release; I mean, clearly it works, but that only provides a short-term boost to sales, rather than rejuvenating sales further down the line, which could quite possibly be a larger amount; CoD at least staggers the release of its map packs, but perhaps what a franchise that popular does and indeed when it does it is irrelevant to anything else.

Actually, considering the state of the financial world, that's not really strange at all. Ho hum.
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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While I would prefer no more DLC, or Patches whatsoever, it cannot happen.

My ideal reality is one where a game is fully realized, fully tested and tweaked, and fully supported as a stand alone, self-contained vessel of its creator's intent and a scale by which to measure their abilities for any future projects.

If they want sales, they need to put out a solid product, that runs perfectly without needing a dozen patches to fix stuff that never should have made it past pre-alpha testing, and to have all the modes, items, skins, maps etc. that the team can possibly come up with within the set development cycle.

If they want to make another game, they need to make the first one solid from DAY ONE not push out something "acceptable" and then rely on what are essentially microtransactions to get the revenue to tip the scales on getting a new project greenlit.

You don't make a chess game, and offer Queens as a pre-order bonus, or a brand new checkers mode 30 days later. You expect to buy the finished game, with all the pieces, with one purchase. You shouldn't have to wait for a patch to allow your knights to finally stop killing themselves and turning over the board so to speak.

And any ideas that were any good, that somehow didn't make it into the game would be good sequel material.

I know this fantasy world, which actually used to exist prior to the current (undying) console generation, is horribly archaic and unreasonable to most people.

I understand the huge benifits to the current system, when utilized properly. For every 30 crappy DLC offerings to Capcom, Koei, and NIS games that ammount to pure cash grabs on content already realized and coded into the fucking game you already bought, we get the occausional Shivering Isle or Mechromancer DLC.

Games that have glitches can be fixed, and usually its a minor thing or a balance tweak or just a temporary event or something fun. In a few cases it can be a year later and the updates can not only fail to fix much of anything, but actually BREAK things that WERE working.

But its better to have the option right? To have the option of letting companies release garbage that doesn't work on day one because they can theorectically, and with MAJOR time/money investments fix it at some undetermined time if at all? Instead of, ya know as consumers and share holders etc, to hold them accountable to SOME kind of quality standard like in pretty much every other kind of business.

Sure, we may get the occausional unfixable game like Black Sigil: Blade of the Exiled that will have its glitches forever, but I'd rather have an awesome game with a few minor bugs that never crashes to a game that sells me the ending, half the cast, half the map, and half the items as DLC and only runs whenever the fuck it feels like it.
 

gwilym101

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I think good DLC's are ones that use the game as a jumping off point or as a bonus for the player. So good ones are fallout 3 and skyrim DLC from Bethesda. Additional stuff they thought would be need to add after they finished the game and effectively act as a reason to keep intrest in the game.

The free ME2 day one DLCs I was okay with as it was just away of trying to rewarding customer loyalty by ensuring they buy first hand copies, and the post-endgame DLC like Lair of the Shadow Broker were fantastic and felt like they had a purpose. They also felt justified as DLC as if they were in the original game, they would have undermined the climax of the game, but a later release date ensured they were effectively seen as a next stage.

Bad ones are simply cash ins on stuff the developers meant to put in to the original game. Such as ME3's day one DLC which you had to pay for. That should have just been free and was a move to just bleed more money out of people. Another example is AC2's DLC battle of Forli and Bonfire of the Vanities. They were meant to be in the game but the developer didn't finish them in time, so dodgily skipped over them and then you had to pay for them.

Overall I think DLC is a good thing, but it's a little irritating that when a new game comes out it is automatically expected to produce DLC for it as well.
 

SeeIn2D

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I think games would certainly come out more often because they'd get old a lot sooner. So instead of waiting six years for the next Elder Scrolls game because of DLC in between the two games, you'd probably wait two or three.
 

KeyMaster45

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Done right I think DLC can be used to make a game relevant in your collection for much longer than it would without it. In the end I can just not purchase the DLC if I it doesn't interest me; voting with my wallet and what not. However, the specter is always there that a dev will deliberately give you a fraction of the game just to gouge money out of you. I'm looking at you Sims3 with your absurd amount of over priced expansions, insultingly sparse base game, and micro transaction item store. Seriously, I refuse to put another cent into that game on principle; all the "expansions" together cost upwards of $430. Its frustrating at times when I want more selection for my Sims houses and I've got only about ten items in a category to work with. That they oh so helpful display their micro transaction items alongside it is even more infuriating, like they're fucking taunting me, so I went through the options and turned off everything that's designed to shill their bullshit.
 

hermes

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Cheesus Crust said:
DoPo said:
Cheesus Crust said:
Somonah said:
What about DLC that's on the disc, you're just paying for it to be unlocked? You ok with that? you're ok with them finishing the game, putting it on the disc then charging you more on top of what you paid for the game, to play what you already paid for?
This is actually an interesting point, I've heard about this before. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Kasumi was already included in the files when ME 2 first came out and it was supposedly just locked?
Just some files and whatnot, not the whole DLC. It's this thing called "shipping with unfinished features". It's been going on for a while - since software has been shipped around to be precise. In the disc with you can find some stuff from Fable the Lost Chapters - I think it was terrain and some other assets. Fable TLC was later released as an expanded edition, however you are not justified to feel "ripped off" for "being made to buy it again", since you never ever had it to begin with.
So as far as history goes there hasn't been an actual game that already included the entire DLC when it was first released?
Yes, Street Fighter vs Tekken included the complete version of all the downloadable characters 6 months down the line. Some hackers discovered how to unlock them and they where even usable online.

I don't know if there are other examples (Yoda/Darth Vader in SC4 come to mind) but in most cases, we can't really know (although we can suspect based on the size of the DLC)...
 

aguspal

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Gaming industry would be better without so much pointless whining about minimal stuff.