"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"

RoBi3.0

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BNguyen said:
Chris OBrien said:
BNguyen said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
BNguyen said:
Growing a garden (with all that entails) or picking up enough greens at the store costs way more than a package of meat.
Are you suggesting that meat is a substitute for... greens? That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. If you substitute all your carrots and broccoli for beef, you're going to have a nutritional deficiency. While people can live entirely on a plant-based diet, you can't live entirely on meat. You'll die.

That reminds me of that scene in Food Inc where this family was comparing the cost of broccoli to Pepsi, marveling at how much cheaper Pepsi is than vegetables. It's fucking sugar water.

If you want a fair comparison, compare the cost of meat to legumes. Look at how cheap lentils are. Being a vegan can be very inexpensive.
I never said that, and don't go accusing me of saying that I did.
I was simply stating how difficult it would be in our economy to completely switch over to a vegetarian diet based on how expensive it would be to acquire sufficient amounts of greens to suppliment or take over for our need of meat. Plants may, for the most part, have what we need in terms of vitamins and minerals, but we'd need to eat larger quantities of it to get the same amounts that meat gives us.
This may be true... if it happened instantaneously. But you're not really citing any facts or numbers. In a 2000 calorie diet, the daily intake of protein needed is easily obtained by eating a balanced, plant-based diet without additional effort*. It seems illogical to assume it would take significantly larger quantities of food to obtain proper nutrients--certainly no more than is already grown to breed, raise, and fatten all the livestock grown for food currently.

*http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/vegetarian-cooking/protein-sample-menus.php - these are some sample menus that show a balanced, vegetarian diet and the intake of nutrients. Another good resource - http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

And he's right. Your comparison was flawed. You should compare the cost of raising a cow to growing a garden. Aside from the cost, it will take years before the cow is edible. Most plants can be eaten within months of being planted.
technically, no, it would take longer to grow a garden than it would to wait for a cow to be eaten (veal and all that), but a garden is a less guaranteed form of nutrients (I've seen how little a home garden actually produces) seeing as how exposed a garden is to damage and how much time is needed to produce enough food to live on, compared to say a herd of cows.
If you were to start with two plots of land - one to be used for growing a garden, the other with a herd of cows. The cows are already to go to eat and little care is needed - just water and sufficient amounts of grass (and not all cows eat soy beans or corn, around where I live, we grow grass for them), add to this that the cows can produce milk if they are healthy
On the other hand, you have to plow a field, add seeds, water, and fertilize the field before a crop can get going. But before that, watch out for birds that dig up seeds, and once they do get growing, spray pesticides and fungicides to remove insects and fungus, and you have to watch out for small animals and even deer which will eat your crops. Storm damage can also ruin the chances for a harvest and even if the crop outlasts all of that, there is no guarantee that the individual plants will produce viable, for lack of a better term, produce. At most a tomato plant will give only a dozen or so edible tomatoes. Now an orchard on the other hand can give you plenty of produce but only after a few years of waiting and even then, there is still the threat of damage and wood rot. After this, both sides require basically the same amount of effort necessary to clean, and prepare the produce to get to the consumer.
Now in this scenario, you'd most likely starve long before your crop got up and running if you chose to not eat from the herd.

Add to the fact that after a few years, the ground loses its nutrients and no crops can be grown until they are replaced, and if you don't have the land needed to wait and still produce crops, then again, you'll starve.

What I'm trying to say in all this is that it's not economically viable to switch over (yet) to a plant based diet with how much effort and money it would need to produce food for everyone. Going completely organic in terms of crops leaves for poor quality produce and a lot of the time no crops at all from bad soil and pests.
The plants we eat do not grow like the weeds we try to remove from our gardens, they don't come back easily or quickly and the amount that they can produce is very low. And add to this that even though there is a lot of land open from humans, most of it is unusable for growing crops since we have parks, mountains, deserts, and protected habitats. The rest of the land is either already being used to grow crops, used to raise herds for meat, or used for us to live on.
And as a note, I do not believe we need giant stadiums for sports or racing as I see it as a waste of fuel, building materials, and good land for growing crops or animals.

Maybe the problem I have is that too many vegetarians want to push their moral high stand point over everyone else because they've made a choice of lifestyle, more specifically the vegans who want only organic foods. I eat both plants and animals, I love specific animals and others I find good sources of food and up until scientists can make a good enough replacement for that, then I'll continue to eat meat.

And I just feel as though I have to say it again: one cow can feed just about as many people as several acres of crops, but with less effort needed to get that cow to your plate.
Oh lord if this post were actually the truth it alone would be proof there is a god, cause growing food before the invention of animal husbandry was so improbably that god had to have a hand in making sure people didn't starve.

I find it humorous that you accept anidotal evidence of home gardens as proof that growing food is less effect then raising meat. Here is a hint you do not have to now what you are doing to plant a garden in your backyard. Also the gestation period of a cow is nine months. That means you have to feed momma cow for nine months before there is a baby cow that you can eat. Cow after all do not appear out of thin air. Plus another 6 weeks before it can be eaten as veal, which by the way is horribly inefficient that is why veal is so expensive. So that is 10.5 months before a cow is food growing vegetable is quicker then that by months.

Furthermore you can produce much more plant foods on an acre of land then you can meat, especially grazed cows they eat a lot of grass and need space to roam. That is a fact. Also crops do use up nuetrients that is why fertilizer is so important to modern agriculture and before fertilized ancient people practiced crop rotation either either by growing different crops in the same area or moving one crop to a different area.

Our crops do not grow like weeds but they are no where near as fargile as you imply. The import ants we place on meat is mostly artificial we need it don't get me wrong but no where close to what people think we do.
 

A-D.

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Sometimes People wonder why i dislike other people, course thats due to a disorder but if they read this thread, i doubt they'd like the lot of you.

First off, would all the vegetarians and vegans get off their high horse? Except those that arent on it, not going to lump all together. The biggest reason i saw for not eating animals is "morals", its morally wrong to eat animals? Who decided that? What gave you people the right to decide the morals of humanity as a whole, and if you did, why didnt you say its amoral to rape and murder? Why are people still doing that shit? See where im going here? You dont decide shit for anyone else but yourself. You dont like meat? Fine. You want to eat plants? Sure, knock yourself out. But dont assume that gives you any right or moral superiority to tell people to not eat meat, or do anything you arent doing.

Im a carnivore, preferably. I eat meat to pretty much anything, i prefer meat over stuff like well, veggies and everything else. I dont like all-vegetable foods, in fact i hate most types of vegetables, or rather dislike most of them. Does that make me a bad person? According to some of the arguements thrown around here, apparently it does. And going by that i will tell People using those flawed arguements to suck on the tailpipe of a car and die. I do not care what you eat, or why you eat it. Im not going to judge you better or worse based on your food, i judge, if anything, based on how intelligent i percieve People to be and making such arguements and comparing Meat-eaters to Nazis? Yeah, i dont see a bright light there, more a dim one. So stop trying to judge people on their diet, you're not any better than people who judge based on religion, skincolor or where people are born. Hypocritical of me given i judge people? Obviously, but at least i dont consider myself better than other People because i prefer meat over plants.

Also, just as a sidenote, a friend of mine went and did the whole vegetarian thing, they got sick, as in really sick, they passed out etc. Why? Iron Deficiency. Iron is in what? Meat. Meaning if you want to avoid meat, you better get suppositories for that, meaning have fun with the chemical bullshit.

In short, stop being close-minded, stop judging people on really silly crap that nobody should really care about and just try the whole acceptance thing. I hear it works well for most People.
 

darlarosa

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ThrobbingEgo said:
darlarosa said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
darlarosa said:
Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.
Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?
There is no reason not to eat people. Functionally our repulsion is in part result of wanting to maintain high population numbers and our of social taboos. There is no reason not to.

I would eat a person. Not ashamed to say it. There are many people on this planet, and some would make for a suitable food source.
Survival as I mentioned it was not the focus of my previous statement. As I said food is food.
So... you've embraced psychopathy? Who cares about how many people (or other sentient creatures) suffer so long as you're happy?

Most people have empathy for others, which is the ability to understand how other people (or other sentient creatures) feel. That usually comes with the understanding that you shouldn't cause people to be in anguish (or, y'know, kill them) if you don't have to. Do you think it's justifiable (or not unjustifiable) for people to hurt you just because they feel like it?

Or are you just talking about 'freegan'ing human corpses that you just happen to find? I'd agree in that case it's just flesh, but the how and where you got it (killing sentient creatures?) does matter on an ethical level. Finding $80 on the ground isn't the same as shooting someone in the head and taking their wallet, even if you can buy a decent pair of headphones with the proceeds either way.
Who the fuck said that? Firstly happiness is irrelevent. I'm talking straight facts. Empathy is a luxury, but there are times when it is to be put aside. I am talking in straight facts not pointless emotional appeals. I never said that we should just fucking kill people and eat them for the sake of eating them. I never insinuated that, if that is where your mind went then that is your problem. All I said was the fact is we are edible, animals are edible, plants are edible, food is food. If we were in a dessert without means of survival we would turn on each other rather quickly regardless of whether we were friends or enemies because we are food. If a man wants to kill himself then let his flesh be useful or disposed of in a useful way. We are sacks of meat and bone. We have only the dignity and respect we have created to justify our laws, and our cultures. Remove the emotions. Remove the cultural assumption of morals, ethics, taboos, norms, and mores to leave the pure and simple fact that we are food. We don't have to love every human. We don't have to love every animal. We don't have to eat every human. We don't have to eat every animal. BUT we are food and we should acknowledge that fact for what it is.


RoBi3.0 said:
There is a tribe in the Pacific, though I don't right remember their exact location. Anyways they as a way to honor their fallen elders consumer their brains after they die. This tribe also is ridden with a degenerative brain disease that functions much like Mad Cow Disease. Transmission of this disease has been linked to the practice of eating the brains of their fallen. So yes there is a good reason not to eat other humans.
I know, but from what I recall the theory is that it is in part do to the eating of the brain , specifically a brain already infected with a neurological disease. It is called Kuru and is found in the Fore tribe of New Guinea. Basically they got food poisoning of the worst kind.
 

XSin

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Im not a vegetarian but I love my pets. I don't love cows or sheep or pigs and in the same sense I don't eat dogs or cats.

The phrase is a bit too broad I think.
 

RoBi3.0

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A-D. said:
Sometimes People wonder why i dislike other people, course thats due to a disorder but if they read this thread, i doubt they'd like the lot of you.

First off, would all the vegetarians and vegans get off their high horse? Except those that arent on it, not going to lump all together. The biggest reason i saw for not eating animals is "morals", its morally wrong to eat animals? Who decided that? What gave you people the right to decide the morals of humanity as a whole, and if you did, why didnt you say its amoral to rape and murder? Why are people still doing that shit? See where im going here? You dont decide shit for anyone else but yourself. You dont like meat? Fine. You want to eat plants? Sure, knock yourself out. But dont assume that gives you any right or moral superiority to tell people to not eat meat, or do anything you arent doing.

Im a carnivore, preferably. I eat meat to pretty much anything, i prefer meat over stuff like well, veggies and everything else. I dont like all-vegetable foods, in fact i hate most types of vegetables, or rather dislike most of them. Does that make me a bad person? According to some of the arguements thrown around here, apparently it does. And going by that i will tell People using those flawed arguements to suck on the tailpipe of a car and die. I do not care what you eat, or why you eat it. Im not going to judge you better or worse based on your food, i judge, if anything, based on how intelligent i percieve People to be and making such arguements and comparing Meat-eaters to Nazis? Yeah, i dont see a bright light there, more a dim one. So stop trying to judge people on their diet, you're not any better than people who judge based on religion, skincolor or where people are born. Hypocritical of me given i judge people? Obviously, but at least i dont consider myself better than other People because i prefer meat over plants.

Also, just as a sidenote, a friend of mine went and did the whole vegetarian thing, they got sick, as in really sick, they passed out etc. Why? Iron Deficiency. Iron is in what? Meat. Meaning if you want to avoid meat, you better get suppositories for that, meaning have fun with the chemical bullshit.

In short, stop being close-minded, stop judging people on really silly crap that nobody should really care about and just try the whole acceptance thing. I hear it works well for most People.
I am sorry for your friends health issues, but the fact is Iron is not found only in meat. There are tons of plant sources that are comparable to meat. Green leafy vegetables a personal favorite of mine. So no going vegetarian does not mean you have to take supplements it does however mean you may have to actually eat vegetables.
 

RoBi3.0

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darlarosa said:
RoBi3.0 said:
There is a tribe in the Pacific, though I don't right remember their exact location. Anyways they as a way to honor their fallen elders consumer their brains after they die. This tribe also is ridden with a degenerative brain disease that functions much like Mad Cow Disease. Transmission of this disease has been linked to the practice of eating the brains of their fallen. So yes there is a good reason not to eat other humans.
I know, but from what I recall the theory is that it is in part do to the eating of the brain , specifically a brain already infected with a neurological disease. It is called Kuru and is found in the Fore tribe of New Guinea. Basically they got food poisoning of the worst kind.
Thanks for the name and location of the tribe. Other then that you just rewrote what I posted in a different way. Though I think it is a little more serious then found poisoning but to each their own I suppose.
 

Fluffythepoo

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Does it still count as a food chain when we grow genetically altered animals in factories? Feels more like farming.. and everyone loves farmers.. therefore everyone loves eating meat.
 

EvilRoy

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ThrobbingEgo said:
EvilRoy said:
I find it genuinely funny that you completely skimmed over the part that talks about how many animals are killed via pest control and farm equipment for crops, to explain to me that animals aren't killed humanely in Australia.

Which brings up an interesting thought though.... Do you feel that the life of a mouse is worth less than the life of a cow? How many prairie dogs need to get run over by a grain thresher before it counts-in your mind-as a single dead chicken?
How many prairie dogs have to die to harvest feed for chickens held in captivity?

As much as I'd rather inadvertently kill as few wild animals as possible, I'd rather live my life with the possibility of being hit by a car at any day than live a short life of suffering in a cage. I'm sure if there were more vegetarians and vegans, there'd be higher demand for safer farming methods for wildlife. That said, I've yet to see good statistics on the death of animals on grain farms. One test I saw involved a trial of 30 released mice and counted deaths from predators to the fatalities caused by farming, so it's more than a little suspect.
If you would like to quote me some statistics on acres of grain to produce a pound of animal protein and acres of, beans I suppose?, to produce a pound of plant protein then using the most conservative death rate of animals due to farm machinery we can find and pounds protein to bull I can produce an optimization for you that will tell us how many animal lives will be saved net per pound protein.

Honestly I doubt it will be many, back home it was pretty normal to walk through a tilled field and see some gruesome sights every few meters. Thing is, you can't make those machines more safe for animals, especially small ones. Ground needs to get ripped up to plant, if something else is chilling in the ground then I'm afraid it gets ripped up as well. Not pleasant to see, but a fact of life.

The only realistic option to reduce animal deaths would be to use organic farming techniques and avoid using machinery at all cost. Problem with that is that organic farming is already substantially less efficient than modern farming techniques, and reducing machine use would create a massive increase labour, further decreasing efficiency.
 

shrimpcel

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This is what will happen if more people become vegetarians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVyknVfsENE

On a more serious note, I've had a vegetarian friend tell me that she sometimes "likes animals more than humans". Frankly, this kind of thinking often disturbs me.
 

ThrobbingEgo

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darlarosa said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
darlarosa said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
darlarosa said:
Meat is meat. Food is food. There is not a person in this forum or in this world I would not kill if I had to, for food. Just survival as it is.
Is it survival if you have other options? If so, should eating people be permissible if you feel like it?
There is no reason not to eat people. Functionally our repulsion is in part result of wanting to maintain high population numbers and our of social taboos. There is no reason not to.

I would eat a person. Not ashamed to say it. There are many people on this planet, and some would make for a suitable food source.
Survival as I mentioned it was not the focus of my previous statement. As I said food is food.
So... you've embraced psychopathy? Who cares about how many people (or other sentient creatures) suffer so long as you're happy?

Most people have empathy for others, which is the ability to understand how other people (or other sentient creatures) feel. That usually comes with the understanding that you shouldn't cause people to be in anguish (or, y'know, kill them) if you don't have to. Do you think it's justifiable (or not unjustifiable) for people to hurt you just because they feel like it?

Or are you just talking about 'freegan'ing human corpses that you just happen to find? I'd agree in that case it's just flesh, but the how and where you got it (killing sentient creatures?) does matter on an ethical level. Finding $80 on the ground isn't the same as shooting someone in the head and taking their wallet, even if you can buy a decent pair of headphones with the proceeds either way.
Who the fuck said that? Firstly happiness is irrelevent. I'm talking straight facts. Empathy is a luxury, but there are times when it is to be put aside. I am talking in straight facts not pointless emotional appeals. I never said that we should just fucking kill people and eat them for the sake of eating them. I never insinuated that, if that is where your mind went then that is your problem. All I said was the fact is we are edible, animals are edible, plants are edible, food is food. If we were in a dessert without means of survival we would turn on each other rather quickly regardless of whether we were friends or enemies because we are food. If a man wants to kill himself then let his flesh be useful or disposed of in a useful way. We are sacks of meat and bone. We have only the dignity and respect we have created to justify our laws, and our cultures. Remove the emotions. Remove the cultural assumption of morals, ethics, taboos, norms, and mores to leave the pure and simple fact that we are food. We don't have to love every human. We don't have to love every animal. We don't have to eat every human. We don't have to eat every animal. BUT we are food and we should acknowledge that fact for what it is.
Except, I presume since you're on the Internet, that you're not stranded in a barren fucking tundra without any access to other food? Your point's moot, at best.
 

A-D.

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RoBi3.0 said:
I am sorry for your friends health issues, but the fact is Iron is not found only in meat. There are tons of plant sources that are comparable to meat. Green leafy vegetables a personal favorite of mine. So no going vegetarian does not mean you have to take supplements it does however mean you may have to actually eat vegetables.
Actually, they had basicly done the vegetarian thing for about a year, eating only fruits and veggies etc, and simply put there just wasnt enough iron in all of that to make up for it. Yes if you eat the right stuff in larger quantities it might make up the difference, but fact is that Meat is still a better supplier of that, amongst other stuff your body requires. Hence their Doctor suggested them suppositories, or eating at least some kind of meat, like chicken for example.

It just shows that even a vegetarian diet can also be unhealthy, just as eating fatty foods is unhealthy even though we also require fat. Vegans are even worse because well they have to avoid quite alot more, though i aint a expert on it.

The Point i was making however was simply that being a vegetarian, or a vegan, does not make you any better than someone who eats everything, or prefers meat, neither in the sense of health or morals. Hence people ought to stop acting "houlier-than-thou" over their personal preference in food.
 

PinkiePyro

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Tanis said:
That 'argument' is bad, and whoever makes it should feel bad.

We're animals, that eat meat.

It's part of our evolution, DEAL WIT IT!
;)
so much this i say look at our goddamn teeth we have canines we were built as omivores we are meant to eat meat


and to anyone who agrees with the title tell that to my 2 cats one of which is purring on my lap as I type this..
 

wulf3n

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shrimpcel said:
I've had a friend tell me that she sometimes "likes animals more than humans". Frankly, this kind of thinking often disturbs me.
I certainly do.
 

lunavixen

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Hmm, it seems like a fair thing to say you can't love something you'd have someone kill for you to eat for dinner. Doesn't mean you can't love some animals, but I'd say I don't see how it works for you to say you love animals in general. If you'd have chickens killed for you just so you can enjoy their flesh I don't think it'd be fair to say you love chickens. (Also the chicken cooking in my house smells good and is making me hungry...)
But that's only a partial truth in itself, I love eating chicken but I think chickens are cute, I'd have a pet chook if I had the room and time for it and I wouldn't eat him/her. I suppose it's a matter of whether you can accept that what you're eating was once alive. (I have killed and plucked chickens to be cooked before, it wasn't the nicest feeling killing it but I accepted that. I've also done the same to rabbits.)

OT: I think that the statement made in the original post is a bit extreme, It is possible to eat the flesh of an animal and still love them as animals (not their taste necessarily). Animals are bred for consumption all the time and that may be what they are bred specifically for and not just an end result of them being alive. Take rabbits and Guinea pigs as examples, to most of us they are pets, but to a lot of people they are a viable source of food where other options are not available.
 

RoBi3.0

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A-D. said:
RoBi3.0 said:
I am sorry for your friends health issues, but the fact is Iron is not found only in meat. There are tons of plant sources that are comparable to meat. Green leafy vegetables a personal favorite of mine. So no going vegetarian does not mean you have to take supplements it does however mean you may have to actually eat vegetables.
Actually, they had basicly done the vegetarian thing for about a year, eating only fruits and veggies etc, and simply put there just wasnt enough iron in all of that to make up for it. Yes if you eat the right stuff in larger quantities it might make up the difference, but fact is that Meat is still a better supplier of that, amongst other stuff your body requires. Hence their Doctor suggested them suppositories, or eating at least some kind of meat, like chicken for example.

It just shows that even a vegetarian diet can also be unhealthy, just as eating fatty foods is unhealthy even though we also require fat. Vegans are even worse because well they have to avoid quite alot more, though i aint a expert on it.

The Point i was making however was simply that being a vegetarian, or a vegan, does not make you any better than someone who eats everything, or prefers meat, neither in the sense of health or morals. Hence people ought to stop acting "houlier-than-thou" over their personal preference in food.
Well if you friend eat nothing but white rice and Iceberg lettuce with an occasional apple. It would lead to a problem. I am not saying that is what happened but it would have to have been close. It is very possible to receive enough iron from plant sources, you only need 8 mg daily hell you get 18 mg from standard breakfast cereal. It is also possible to take an iron supplement that is not a suppository I half suspect that your friend's Doctor is a wank or there is an underlying condition you were not made aware of. Regardless for whatever reason it didn't work for your friend. I hope he has gotten better.

Any diet that you don't rightly care about what you eat is a recipe for poor health vegetarian or not. I worked for sometime at a restaurant with a women that claimed to be a vegetarian and therefor couldn't eat the employee meals we provided. We would of course make her a substitute of her choice. The entire time she worked there I never once saw that women eat a vegetable she was however very fond of our desserts. Non meat eating or not that type of diet can't diet healthy in the long run.

I personally am not fond of holier-than-thou types either. So I feel you there.
 

manic_depressive13

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EvilRoy said:
I find it genuinely funny that you completely skimmed over the part that talks about how many animals are killed via pest control and farm equipment for crops, to explain to me that animals aren't killed humanely in Australia.

Which brings up an interesting thought though.... Do you feel that the life of a mouse is worth less than the life of a cow? How many prairie dogs need to get run over by a grain thresher before it counts-in your mind-as a single dead chicken?
I didn't skim over it. I am aware that small animals are shredded by harvesting machines. However, the article was clearly biased and falsely depicted the situation of farm animals. For every mouse shredded there is a cow or pig horrifically slaughtered. For every poisoned prairie dog (which we don't have in Australia) there is a river ecosystem destroyed by animal waste from farms running into the water. In fact, I would say that shredded mice probably don't even reach the amount of shredded chickens, which are casually tossed into a grinding machine after they hatch if they are male, because they cannot be used for meat or eggs. I don't think our methods of farming and harvesting plants are ideal. Obviously we still need to be conscious of what we eat and how it is produced, even with a vegetarian diet. However, your article was fucking bullshit. We cause destruction by existing, but we must aim to minimise that destruction as best we can, and I think a vegetarian diet is a start until we are able to mass produce in-vitro meat. As long as the current meat industry is as profitable as it is there is no incentive to invest in such expensive endeavours. Unfortunately that's how our shitty capitalist system works.
 

Lord_Gremlin

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Quite a stupid statement. I remember at some point I've spent summer in the country, several years in a row, and had some pet chickens there. Really loved those birds. Naturally, we didn't eat them (unless you count eggs). But that never stopped me from buying and eating chicken, you know, chickens I don't know personally I'll eat happily.
That's a good example. Most people will never eat cat or any other common pet.
Also, another example I had pet crayfish for many years, even bred them. And yet I never had problems buying crayfish on a market and eating them.
It all kinda looks like double standard, but I think it's perfectly normal, even for humanity in general.
P.S. Do you know chickens die around the age of 15?