"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"

[RoBi3.0]

Chris OBrien

You know, I've kind of started ignoring you for a while now because you still failed to answer the question at all. I'm giving up this thread because nobody seems to have a good answer for the moral reason of giving up meat, and you sure as hell aren't giving one.
And besides, you tend to ignore the factual details of how much effort you need to grow a garden, it isn't as simple as planting a seed and forgetting about it till it blossoms fruit or a vegetable.


And this:
"If, as you insist, you have created a scenario that skirts the issue meat-production altogether, then it must disregard plant-based diets as well. "
no, it doesn't, it asks how you would deal with famine if a plant-diet economy and infrastructure was implemented before the fact without causing needless damage to the environment in order to produce more food.


The answer is that both sides have some fault in destroying the environment, animals with land consumption and feed while growing crops releases toxins into water supplies and animal habitats. There is no clear cut way to decrease our effect while providing enough food but the best way to off-shoot the release of toxins into ground water would be to farm fish - they breed rapidly and don't need expensive equipment or huge areas in order to raise them.

And yes, my point is factual - for an average person, you're more likely to find an edible animal than to find a plant that is edible. Most of the plants you'll run into are shrubs, trees, grasses, or flowers - very little of what you'll find in the wild is edible and even if it is, an average person won't be able to tell what parts are good for food and what aren't seeing as how a lot of wild-growing plants both look alike or have to be cooked a certain way before they are edible.

EDIT: Ignore my point on fat from plants, but still, my point being that even if overall a plant-based diet is healthy, not everyone can subsist on a plant diet for the sole reason that they are unable to stomach it, their bodies aren't capable of breaking down plants as easily as they can meat - not always but sometimes - I myself get sick from eating certain vegetables and fruits - I tried eating blueberries before and I puked after swallowing one.
And all plant-based diet is not feasible for every one of us if we cannot eat what's on our plate, and not from a moral standpoint but a physical one.

Here is the thing about morality. This goes for everyone in this thread not just you. I can't tell you what your morality in and you can't tell me what mine is. Morality is an individually constructed concept based on what the individual finds to be important. So if you are dead set on eating meat it is not likely that you will ever find a moral reason against to be reasonable. That is just fine. I eat meat because the way I go about doing it is consistent with my morals. If anyone want to ask how that is possible I will explain, but to each their own as far as I am concerned.

I haven't argued morality in this thread because it is pointless. People spreading misinformation and distorting facts , and presenting illogical reasoning, however is a bother to me. This thread has been ripe with such things coming for both side of the moral argument. I will continue to point them out because I think people should understand what they are saying.

Furthermore, it is true that the average person would have an issue finding edible plants to eat if they were in a situation were in became necessary. This is not because it is actually hard to find edible plants, but because those skills are no longer important to our society thanks to supermarkets. Did you know that dandelion greens are edible? You know that weed that grows in everyone's front yard the green part of it is edible. It is way easier to get those then hunt a deer. You seem to pride yourself as being smarter then the average person may I suggest perhaps educating yourself about this so that you are not as dumb on this issue as the average person.

The fact that you hate blueberries shouldn't be an indication that some peoples bodies are incompatible with the consumption of plant food. Discounting people with underlying health conditions, people will experience discomfort when eating plant foods especial when switching from an average American diet to a vegetarian diet or even one that simply contains more vegetation. This is normal. The digestive system just like your arms and legs is made up of muscles; a life of eating overly refined food and and processed foods leads to a digestive system that operates sub-optimally. Switching to a diet of less refined food and more vegetables is like asking a fat guy to run a mile; it ain't going to be pretty at first. If you keep making the fat guy run he will get better at it until it is no longer a problem. This is true for you digestive system as well.

 

[BNguyen]

To Chris OBrien - I never ignored that it was hard to raise animals, I just never expressly stated anything about it - I pertained to the fact that not everyone can consume plants as easily as you think they can. My blueberries example was just one of many plants I can't consume because my body rejects them. It's not a matter of hate, its a matter of anatomy and physiology. If I can't consume something, then that has to remain out of my diet, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
I never said it was preferable either way, growing crops may have less of an impact but there are still problems WITH BOTH SIDES. And by the way, you don't need to raise fish in a lake or natural body of water in order to farm them, a tank works just as well and I've actually tended to one for some time, and it takes significantly less food to feed them than a herd of animals.

Frankly I believe I've been talking to myself about this because you seem to skim over the little details and only focus on the first sentence of the paragraph and then make assumptions to fill in the blanks in your head.

The only moral reason I have against eating meat is how the animal lived and died.
If its open range, fed well, and given a quick painless death, then I'll eat it.
If it was beaten prior to its death, then yeah, I'd have a problem.

If you want me to answer your questions, fine.

"What do you value? If someone made what they thought were personal choices that negatively affected the world and it conflicted with your value system, would you not feel morally superior? Would you not try to inform said person of the effects of their behaviors and try to better the world by bettering them?"

This is all subjective as in one cannot be better than the other until it threatens the life or liberty of one or the other. One can feel morally superior to the other and vice versa, our ability to think and reason gives us the ability to form morals.
For example, if I saw someone committing murder, I'd have them arrested and find out why they did it. Their answer could be for any number of reasons but for this argument, let's say he was being a mercy killer for persons suffering from painful illnesses and/or assisting suicides. Now am I morally superior for stopping someone who is helping others with their decisions, maybe.
My value system tells me the human lives are precious but also that everyone has the right to choose how to live their lives. Only when their choices prohibit my own or even cause me harm do I have a problem with that.
As for you, I have a problem with you telling me what to do. I can agree with you on a level that less meat can be good and that animals should be treated better if they are going to be farmed, but I still feel that I can make the decision of what I want to eat for myself. Human life is short and you should use it doing what you want to do, if you went around trying to effect other people's lives, then you can't really call it your life but theirs'.

"Shouldn't it be every individual's goal to be as morally advanced as possible? If not, then why not?"

Seeing as how everyone has different morals and only the most shared morals are indoctrinated into society, this is also subjective and hard to answer. You change society by changing its morals or norms, but when you try to force change in the manner you see fit, you become no better than a tyrant even if you mean well. When you try to force change onto people you will obviously receive lash back from it. If you want people to change, you need to present your arguments in clear and understanding ways - people can present counterarguments but you should not immediately dismiss them because they disagree with you for any reason. When you act like a level headed adult, people will be more inclined to speak in like manner, the more you give, the more they'll return.
Besides, with what I've seen in terms of morals, I feel the need to keep my voice out of it because frankly, I believe in the preservance of human life while across the board so many people are willing to do away with it.

And this one may not have been directed towards me but
"Does it actively struggle against its environment to survive? If you put something it considers food in front of it, will it eat the food? Does it reproduce in a way similar to human beings, at least on a basic level?"

Some plants release toxins in the air to direct defense against itself - think The Happening but not quite as outlandish. Point two, over time, the plant food will be absorbed and broken down by the plant, so yes, it will eat what we put in front of it, if plants didn't, then there'd be no point of using fertilizer. Plants may not have peni or vaginas but they do have the plant equivalents of them, pollen being sperm for one thing and that pollen has to fertilize the plant in order to produce seeds or spores, so yes, a plant does have some similarities in terms of reproducing.

There, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability (at the moment) and frankly, I'd like to drop this discussion because obviously we have different views and standings on this issue and our arguing isn't going to do a thing to change it. Can we act like reasonable adults and drop this?

 

[TKretts3]

I do love animals, and for a reason. I love them because they taste good. That is, animals like cows, chickens, pigs, et cetera. I love pet animals (Cats, dogs, hamsters, et cetera) because they're warm, cuddly, and fun. Just because we don't love animals for the same reasons, and in the same way, as some radical eco-terrorist group doesn't mean that we don't love them at all. There are various ways to earn people's love.

 

[Argtee]

That's why I eat them.

I just love them soooo much.