You don't decide your country's policy

Dreiko

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If we take as a basic standpoint that sometimes we need to fight, we fight better with allies, and allies need to know they can trust us. You can decide to keep out of things, but existing commitments still need to be honoured.

That said, I don't think the USA has any commitments it can't step away from currently, as long as it warns its allies what's coming in decent time.
We do not need to ever fight, because there's nukes which will destroy the world, and any fight where nukes are not worth using is a fight you can deplomacy your way through as well.


And yes like I said it's a warmongering excuse to bring up commitments in this context.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Is nice to have official confirmation I suppose.
But how do we get people to properly understand this and make more informed - aka actual informed - decisions within the tiny obscured window of democratic choice they are briefly allowed to have? I'm seriously fucking fed up with how easily manipulated people are, the extreme rewards this system provided for bad-faith actors to perpetuate this, and now schools being mandated into never criticising the status quo too. It just feels completely hopeless all the time.
Never. Even in partnerships of only two people working by themselves, someone will be the one with more power to some extent. The bigger our societies are, the more easy they are to corrupt since there's so much distance between individuals personally and so much darkness for people to hide their doings in. The best anyone can do is minimize it.

The price for electronics and entertainment dropped, while everything else rose. I don't know if the graph is there, but it pretty much shook me. Literally bread and circuses.

Check it out - I think the US crashed the Japanese economy in the 80s.

I don't want to be reductionist but I think that this is a result of hyper-inflation.
Actually no. (Simplified explanation) The Japanese were doing things like selling super cheap in the US while having ridiculous prices in their own country in order to drive competition from the US out of business and once the US caught on it set tarifs and such. I was actually just reading about this so pardon me if I'm a little off.
 
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Thaluikhain

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We do not need to ever fight, because there's nukes which will destroy the world, and any fight where nukes are not worth using is a fight you can deplomacy your way through as well.
Yeah, that line of thinking went out with the Korean war. Nuclear capable nations get involved in conventional/limited wars all the time, diplomacy hasn't been able to stop that.
 

Dreiko

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Yeah, that line of thinking went out with the Korean war. Nuclear capable nations get involved in conventional/limited wars all the time, diplomacy hasn't been able to stop that.

What we have going on is proxy wars between nations backed by nuclear powers, not actual war between nuclear powers themselves.
 

Iron

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Actually no. (Simplified explanation) The Japanese were doing things like selling super cheap in the US while having ridiculous prices in their own country in order to drive competition from the US out of business and once the US caught on it set tarifs and such. I was actually just reading about this so pardon me if I'm a little off.
Check out the bubble they had in Japan. The central bank inflated asset prices by pumping money into the economy (window guidance). The central bank forced the Japanese banks to issue more loans, and since there was not enough of a need for loans in the business sector, they flooded the real-estate sector. This created an inflation of money in circulacion and the inflation of asset prices.
This is from 1989.
quote:
"
''Japanese specialists jokingly refer to a tochi honi-sei, or `land standard` .... A number of explanations have been offered for this, but the simplest one is that the administrators in the banks, the ministries and the corporations have discovered a way of making money with money by agreeing not to spoil the party for each other,'' Wolferen writes.
"
A massive scam. Orchestrated from inside the Japanese central bank, with the previous person I mentioned at its helm. He then agreed to stop this bubble - by popping it, crashing the economy, and forcing Japan to give concessions to the central bank (blaming the crisis on the lack of autonomy and oversight by the government ministry of finance).
I agree. But it's not just banks, it's everything.



Quite possibly. As power and wealth consolidates into ever larger corporations, so larger corporations become a larger proportion of bank business, and banks will increasingly concentrate their attention on them. It might also involve the fact that bank managers don't really do so much anymore - decison-making (certainly for little people) will be with more impersonalised, centralised services.
This phenomenon makes small businesses difficult to maintain, even medium-sized businesses. It's in essence the death-throes of the middle class.
 

Iron

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Firstly, we'd need to ask what hyperinflation is. As I understand it, it's hundreds of percent per year, which clearly cannot have happened. I think inflation in the UK hasn't exceeded about 15% p.a. since 1970 (and that was a result of the oil shock).



It's not a situation I know enough about. I just find it hard to believe it was a deliberate takedown of Japan which its banks and government bureaucrats somehow failed to notice, let alone assist with. I suspect they just flubbed their policy.
I think that this hyper-inflation is hidden inside the rising cost of goods through the erosion of purchasing power (and the debasement of currency). I am probably misusing technical terms here.
You seem to use the maxim, not to attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence. In this case I am fairly certain that this was a deliberate take-down. How else could the architect of this massive failure then move on to chair the BiS?
 

Thaluikhain

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What we have going on is proxy wars between nations backed by nuclear powers, not actual war between nuclear powers themselves.
True, though I was also thinking of the Falklands, one nuclear power and one non-nuclear nation fighting a limited war on neither's mainland. Diplomacy didn't avoid that one.
 

Dreiko

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True, though I was also thinking of the Falklands, one nuclear power and one non-nuclear nation fighting a limited war on neither's mainland. Diplomacy didn't avoid that one.
Yeah and so what I'm saying is that that's a failure of diplomacy and it could be done better. If the nuclear power was fearing extermination they would have ended it by making it clear they were about to nuke them.


I think in the modern day and age where we know so much about eachother, where we no longer have a situation of strange barbarians breaking down our gates and being wild and unable to communicate with, that war is an antiquated concept, and there's infinitely smarter ways to diplomacy through these sorts of things. It's just not as profitable for corporations to do that.
 

Agema

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You seem to use the maxim, not to attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence. In this case I am fairly certain that this was a deliberate take-down. How else could the architect of this massive failure then move on to chair the BiS?
Potentially he was deemed to have theoretically done the right thing, but it exploded Japan's financial system in ways that his peers deemed could not reasonably have been foreseen. Or perhaps he was deemed to have faced a crisis and done what was necessary, extraordinarily painful though it was - the Japanese banking system had just happened to have reached that sort of state. I just don't know.

One way or another, it's not clear to me how advantageous it would be to the USA to torpedo an ally in that way. Nor does it make sense to me that if the USA had screwed them, the Japanese wouldn't have twigged even to this day and be mightily annoyed.
 

Agema

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We do not need to ever fight, because there's nukes which will destroy the world, and any fight where nukes are not worth using is a fight you can deplomacy your way through as well.

And yes like I said it's a warmongering excuse to bring up commitments in this context.
Diplomacy works where everyone is willing to use diplomacy. In terms of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and plenty of what Russia's been up to, diplomacy is self-evidently not enough. Secondly, some of the USA's power and influence in diplomacy exists because it carries the implicit threat of military action (e.g. Taiwan's ongoing independence and South Korea's national securit probably rest squarely on the USA's will to militarily assist them.) There is a solid rationale to "peace through strength", but that strength also includes the will to use it.
 

Silvanus

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Screw the strategies and screw the allies, just get the hell out of there and let them sort their own mess. It's not our job to be the world police.
This massacre would be caused by the US's actions, deceiving allies through a false promise and baiting them into conflict. How is that "their own mess"? It's a mess of the US's creation. It exists as a result of the US's statements and promises.

A massacre which could be avoided, again, simply by informing allies in advance and then still withdrawing. The alternative does not involve staying; it doesn't involve any offensive manoeuvres.

In this example (of Syria), I've stated before that the US allies were unreliable, and attempting to abandon it. This was a pre-emptive move (allowing Turkey to wreck shit in Syria). The clarifications from Agema about the order of events made me doubt myself afterwards...
You've made several assumptions and speculations about them, yes.

And yes like I said it's a warmongering excuse to bring up commitments in this context.
It's "warmongering" to withdraw from conflict after informing one's allies, as opposed to deceiving them into conflict. Truly, words have lost all meaning.
 

Dreiko

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Diplomacy works where everyone is willing to use diplomacy. In terms of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and plenty of what Russia's been up to, diplomacy is self-evidently not enough. Secondly, some of the USA's power and influence in diplomacy exists because it carries the implicit threat of military action (e.g. Taiwan's ongoing independence and South Korea's national securit probably rest squarely on the USA's will to militarily assist them.) There is a solid rationale to "peace through strength", but that strength also includes the will to use it.
I don't think it's a show of strength to be mired in a conflict that lasts 19 years. If anything it's a show of weakness that it takes you this long to root out cave shepards in a third world country.

I'm for a show of strength in the sense that you bomb the fuck out of some place and get out once in a while. Not this whole crazy invasion things that make you stay there forever.

This massacre would be caused by the US's actions, deceiving allies through a false promise and baiting them into conflict. How is that "their own mess"? It's a mess of the US's creation. It exists as a result of the US's statements and promises.





It's "warmongering" to withdraw from conflict after informing one's allies, as opposed to deceiving them into conflict. Truly, words have lost all meaning.
It is not our problem that the Kurds and Turks have been in conflict for forever. What we did wrong is get into a mess which required us allying with Kurds when they have all this baggage to them. It's like a toxic relationship, the faster you end it the better.


And it's warmongering to use informing our allies as an excuse for endless war, yes.
 

Silvanus

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It is not our problem that the Kurds and Turks have been in conflict for forever. What we did wrong is get into a mess which required us allying with Kurds when they have all this baggage to them. It's like a toxic relationship, the faster you end it the better.
But it's the US's problem if their actions directly lead to a slaughter.

You cannot just paint that into a wider picture of "conflict for forever". This incident only occurred because one force was deceived into it by a false promise.

And it's warmongering to use informing our allies as an excuse for endless war, yes.
...Which isn't what anybody is advocating. I'm literally talking about informing our allies of withdrawal in order to avoid bloodshed. No further war necessary: still withdrawing, just without the fucking lies and death.
 

Fieldy409

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If we take as a basic standpoint that sometimes we need to fight, we fight better with allies, and allies need to know they can trust us. You can decide to keep out of things, but existing commitments still need to be honoured.

That said, I don't think the USA has any commitments it can't step away from currently, as long as it warns its allies what's coming in decent time.

Time to be ready for them to leave would be so important i'd guess. Imagine if you trusted the Americans to protect your armies flank, and suddenly they went home due to political issues and left a big hole in your line that the enemy blitzkrieged their tanks through. Suddenly you've lost your capital in a fight you probably could have won alone because you trusted the USA to honor it's commitment and now the bad guys are beheading your president/prime minister/king and raping/pillaging your cities and towns.

I could see how not wanting that to happen could stretch from days to weeks into months or even years of staying longer than you wanted to though.


In regards to the title. You don't control your government, you vote now and then but you still don't know everything your leader will do, plus there's propaganda muddying everything. I find it strange when people want to blame a people for what their government might have done now or in the past. I can't control my prime minister Scott Morrison and make him not go to Hawaii during horrific bushfires.