You don't have to be afraid of taking a public stance against #GamerGate.

[Jake Martinez]

Tell me again where the proof is that this 'positive press' wasn't the result of sexual favors?

The burden of proof rests on those making the accusations. Reasonable people do not assume guilt.

You conveniently bypassed the salient point of MerlinCross's post. It's not about sex, no one who is criticizing the press is an outraged sexual puritan, it's about bias and friendship.

You want a clear-cut example:

Look at the work done by Patricia Hernandez at Kotaku. She makes repeated references and does reviews and hype pieces for the work of two very middling talent developers by the names of Anna Anthropy and Christine Love. Two people she is (now) known to have either had sex with or lived with.

The point being here: If you are an indie developer, being best mates with a journalist despite your talent level is a great way to get positive press. It also likely influences your chances of getting awards and recognition at independent games festivals (which we've seen with the Indiecade fiasco).

 

[Jux]

Okay fine:

There are no news stories covering Gamasutra's hate speech. In fact, the stories covering intel pulling out are how misogynists are attacking the website.

No mention of minorities who are pissed at Gamasutra. No mention of anything of Gamergate except the old "meanines" defense.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6886747/intel-buckles-to-anti-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/02/gamergate_strikes_again_pressures_intel_into_pulling_its_ads_from_gamasutra.html
http://venturebeat.com/2014/10/03/intel-pulls-ads-from-gamasutra-then-apologizes-for-it/
http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/4/6906909/intel-gamergate-advertising-gamasutra

The list goes on. It talks about how Gamasutra is the victim of a crusade of angry manchildren when in reality it pissed off the whole hive.

You justified the harsssment by saying it wasn't harassment. For both Sommers, and Intel.

Please quote me where I said 'harassment isn't harassment', or justified harassment of any sort. Just one quote.

When these journalists glossed over the racial bit that Gamasutra and its friends kicked up, they say it doesn't exist. Notyourshield is a protest of them being glossed over and being used as a shield.

I told you this before.

So when you glossed over the journalists glossing over minorities you are enabling the journalists and endorsing them. This industry cannot remain silent on these kinds of issues.

When did I gloss over anything? I've said it multiple times, even in this thread, that I condemn harassment of any sort.

And you want to know the kicker? Leigh Alexander is a writer for multiple publications. She writes for Kotaku, Gamasutra, Vice, the Guardian, The Escapist, and Time. So its no coincidence that she get defended for something she wrote.

So are you enabling her because she writes for the escapist?

Workers are one thing, but when mouth pieces are used for hate it ends quickly. It happened for Donald Sterling, the guy from sienfield, and Paula Dean.

We shouldn't tolerate hate from them because they have cultural influence. These aren't cashiers at Walmart or people working in an office. These are people with reach and can use their reputation to justify whatever horrible thing they want.

And I'm still waiting for a quote where I have defended abuse or harassment. I am waiting on a quote where I have belittled minorities, as you've claimed many times now. And I'm waiting on a source that journalists set their fans on people, and that I defended that. Your list of accusations is getting pretty long. Are you going to start quoting where I said any of this stuff, or are you going to keep soap boxing?

Lying about people isn't cool? Well neither is glossing over hate in the media. Neither is defending hateful people because they are your friend.

Which hateful people have I defended? Leigh Alexander isn't my friend, I don't know the person.

Ignoring the hate isn't going to make it go away. I told you this before.

I haven't ignored anything. If I don't speak out specifically against it, it's most likely because I've already made the blanket statement that I condemn harassment. And I'll be happy to repeat that ad nauseum.

Gaming journalism hasn't learned that friends don't let friends be hateful. Until it does Gamergate and notyourshield will always be around.

Don't ignore gaming's problems and the very real pain it brings to minorities or saying its not as big as it is.

As it is, J miller may not be able to work in this industry ever again for creating #notyourshield. A black man got punished for saying he is black and doesn't agree with the way Game Journalism covers him. Neither will Tom Sawyer or any other dev who decided to join the protest.

There is a reason this has gone on for 2 months. There is a reason people are pissed. When we heard that J Miller got punished for being black is the moment we knew we were in it for the long haul.

Keep on soap boxing. All of this is fluff, it has nothing to do with the claims you've made about me. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for the things you claim I've said. It should be easy enough to source if it happened, as it's all here in text. I'm still waiting.

 

[Plunkies]

How naive can you be? They're going to attack people under one label or another. Do you not know what spawned gamergate? A coordinated barrage of articles directly attacking gamers. Gamers. They had no "gamergate" to attack but they still had a name for us, didn't they? They still had a group of people to slander and deride and shame into submission. Unfortunately for them they only managed to piss people off in record numbers.

You know what? No. You bring up the "Gamers are Dead" articles, we get to talk about what spawned the "Gamers are Dead" articles. They didn't spring up full form from the head of Zeus, they were written in response to yet more horribleness that had come to define "gamer" these past years. Like the month long "Burgers and Fries" witch hunt. Like the response Sarkeesian gets for doing literally anything. Like the bomb threat on the SOE president. Like the death threats sent to the Gamespot reviewer who dared give GTA 5 a mere 9/10.

I'm not surprised games journalists got sick of this loud, toxic minority that tries to pretend they're the only gamers that matter, I'm just surprised it took them this long to snap.

Really? You want to play this game?

And what about Leigh Alexanders hateful and racist tirades? Her repeated doxxing of critics? The constant stream of articles over the last several years calling gamers misogynists and how games promote rape? The syringe sent to Milo? A writer at the verge threatening to punch gamergate supporters at comic-con? TB still receiving harassment while recovering from surgery? Indie devs like Jason Miller losing their jobs due to harassment? Gearbox claiming a bomb threat near their office was from gamergate when, as it turned out, had absolutely nothing to do with them? The DDOSing of this very forum? The censorship of multiple sites? The refusal to report on the Zoe Quinn scandal after smearing Max Temkin with no evidence on a bogus rape claim?

I can go on all day.

Zoe Quinn's attacks on TFYC. IndieCade's completely corrupt judges. Phil Phish's racketeering scheme. Brianna Wu harassing GamerGate supporters with a sock account while still trying to claim victimhood, baseless attacks on Intel calling them sexist, gaymerx harassed for mere neutrality, the polygon writer harassed for neutrality, Matt Lees calling Christina Sommers scum, Alex Lifschitz saying gamers should have their backs broken on racks among other crazy things, the bullying that went on in the gamejournopro group, George Reese comparing gamergate supporters to ISIS, Ian Miles Chong falsely accusing a gamergate supporter of being a rapist, the doxxing of Kingofpol and internetaristocrat, the dmca claims on thunderfoot....

I'm choosing to stop but it goes on and on and on....http://i.imgur.com/4JWl6sF.jpg

Not to mention every person, just like you, who blames every individual event on gamers as a whole, even though if you replaced "gamers" with a race, gender, religion, lifestyle, country, political leaning, etc. you'd sound absolutely ridiculous.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Really? You want to play this game?
-snipped horribleness-

Sucks when they're on the receiving end of the stuff they dish out, isn't it? Of course, the hyperbole tends not to match the reality, but hey, whatever makes a better story. Of course, most of the examples you bring up are people being shitty on Twitter, but hey, it's not like GamerGate has trolled hashtags that didn't have anything to do with them before right? Pure as the driven snow, I tell ya.

And I'd be more sympathetic to Milo if he didn't say that death threats weren't a real thing if the victim tweeted about them. Well that and if he wasn't a sexist, transphobic asshole trying to turn GG into a right-wing culture war.

When that "constant stream of articles" amount to what, 0.5% of gaming articles I makes me think of confirmation bias.

And ffs, "censorship" doesn't mean "got kicked off of private message boards." Get some perspective.

But fine. The other side was naughty too, therefore GG wins. Or whatever you want me to say.

 

[Vigormortis]

The only thing we need to be afraid of is the final, utter death of rational debate and reasonable thinking. As it is, all sides of this "debate", or whatever you want to call it nowadays, are so muddled in hyperbole, fallacious arguments, hypocrisy, double-standards, and libelous statements it's a wonder anyone can make sense of it. Hell, even the debates occurring in this very thread see both sides being guilty of the above; all while accusing the other side of doing the same.

Frankly, it's all depressingly laughable at this point. I can count on one hand the number of 'celebrity' voices currently engaged in this discussion that have any semblance of rationality and non-bias. Sadly, their voices have been drowned out by the screams of anti-GGers and pro-GGers, as well as those feigning apathy or neutrality.

And people ask me why I've become a misanthrope in recent years...

 

[Jux]

Quote function isn't working atm.

'hate campaign'? That's a pretty strong claim. Is gg a hate campaign for lobbying intel to pull sponsorship from gamasutra?

You didn't think it it was a hate campaign against Intel. Even though it was.

A question mark is usually an indicator of a question. You say that intel received threats and accusations of misogyny. On a campaign wide scale. Surely there is some evidence of this right?

You say its not industry wide so it doesn't matter. it does matter, and it is an industry wide problem when the entire industry isn't condemning it.

I disagree. It would be nice if the industry as a whole condemned harassment, but when you told me I should be condemning the industry for harassment, that implies the industry as a whole is engaging in harassment. Which I don't see, so I can't see it as an industry wide issue.

You refused to see an industry wide problem when it is blatant. That means you refuse to acknowledge why we are angry and therefore belittling it.

Blatant to who? Just because I don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't mean I refuse to acknowledge that you're angry, nor was I belittling you. In fact I can prove it, I sent a PM to you specifically regarding this. Here's the text. If you want a screen cap on top of that, I can provide one later tonight after I get home.

Hey, I wanted to apologize for telling you to 'calm your shit' in that last PM. It was uncalled for. I trust that you are angry about all this, and I got a bit defensive.

That said, I still don't agree with gamergate as a movement, but do support better journalistic standards for the industry.

You care more about making GG look bad than anything else, more than willing to make up shit just to slander it like lying about where the Wu death threat came from. Harassment is only a tool for you to grind your axe with your personal bias.

This more than says you don't care for harassment only until you can use it as a bargaining chip.

Do I care about not letting gg lie about it's orgins, and pointing out inconsistencies in it's mission statement? Absolutely. Did I make anything up about where the Brianna Wu threat came from? Absolutely not. Your personal opinion on 'me using harassment' is only your opinion. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for it, yet repeat it like a broken record as if it's stated fact.

I don't care if you personally, or gg as a whole goes after harassment. If ya'll do, great. But I don't care, because as far as I can see, it's not part of gg's mission.

This too, you don't care what gamergate or notyourshield finds, only that you find more spin to slander it.

When you slander gamergate, you slander notyourshield.

BS. Not only have I never slandered gg, gg is not the same thing as notyourshield. Criticising one is not criticising the other. To paint it as such is highly dishonest.

When you slander notyourshield, you are belittling minorities and their feelings on hateful media.

Which I have never done.

and you see where I am going with this. You are working with the same hateful journalists who want this gone so they can post about how much they hate the jews and black men.

You are enabling the journalists to say whatever because of your personal hang ups at the expense of minorities.

I can see where you're trying to go with this, and it isn't working.

I am still waiting on a quote where I have belittled minorities. I'm still waiting on a source that journalists set their fans on people, and that I defended that.

 

[Plunkies]

Really? You want to play this game?
-snipped horribleness-

Sucks when they're on the receiving end of the stuff they dish out, isn't it?

Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.

 

[irishda]

-snip-

Aye, and for a movement that's supposedly moved past it's misogynistic roots, they can kindly tell that to Brianna Wu. What's your channel? And tippy, most people have abandoned the gg thread, it's an echochamber. Any sort of criticism of it just gets lost, ignored, or met with the same talking points.

What misogynistic roots? You mean calling a journalist out on giving positive press to a woman who slept with him?

It was the woman and the journalist in question who shifted the focus onto her. The issue gamergate had was always with him.

That's why the main thread from that time (the largest Escapist thread ever) was titled "Nathan Grayson and the Surrounding Controversy".

*Pssst! It wasn't called that*

Anti-GG amounts to "lots of the people on the internet are trying to ruin people's livelihoods over an imagined slight". GG amounts to "we don't want people telling us our games are being sexist/racist anymore"

Fixed those for you.

there is no collusion

There's the second largest thread in Escapist history saying otherwise. If people agree to do things together, that's called collusion.

You cannot remove someone's anger by debating their right to be angry, you can only remove it by removing the source for their anger.

Or, and this is particularly true if they're mad over trivial and inconsequential things, they can mature and develop a better perspective on life. That sure helps normal people stop being angry. The anti-GG crowd knows what you guys are mad about. It's not a secret, or hard to decipher. You want SJWs out of your gaming journalism.

 

[irishda]

There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.

No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers

 

[Nikolaz72]

There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.

No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers

She got hired as a CM but did artwork and participated in developement.

Do your own research before you try to smear others.

 

[irishda]

There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.

No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers

She got hired as a CM but did artwork and participated in developement.

Do your own research before you try to smear others.

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about how journos brow beat the developer into hiring her (they have this power) instead of fans being pissed about her presence after that fact. My apologies.

 

[Nikolaz72]

There are several developers who have come out and said that they've been threatened and bullied by journos into changing their games in order to suit what the journos would rather see. Look into the issues with the CM for Mighty No. 9 (the "spiritual successor" to Mega Man) if you don't believe me.

No they aren't. And I'm worried about what you read about Mighty 9, because everything I looked up said the fans were mad because the company hired an "SJW" as a community manager (read: Person not even in charge of developing the game at all). So the example you point us to to highlight journos bullying developers because of what they'd like to see instead shows us gamers bullying a developer because of what they'd like to see.

"Gamers are NOT whiny and immature!" -Gamers

She got hired as a CM but did artwork and participated in developement.

Do your own research before you try to smear others.

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about how journos brow beat the developer into hiring her (they have this power) instead of fans being pissed about her presence after that fact. My apologies.

Actually she got hired via nepotism. Both the company and herself admits the fact. Her boyfriend is/was one of the people responsible for hiring.

Being a community manager made the fans simmering. What got them flaming was when she started doing concepting and the likes for them, it just seems like someone whose never touched a megaman game and who spammed SJW propaganda about how the protagonist should be a girl and the plot should be completely different from anything else they had done previously on the Kickstarter page shouldn't anywhere near concepting or art design. Or Community Manager position for that matter.

If it was about hiring a woman I'm sure there were enough Japaneese women who could speak english and had played megaman games around that they did not have to hire a white one with skewered ideals and a bad handle on the community as a community manager.

Nevertheless, they've lost a lot of money recently from people doing chargebacks as a result of her idiocy. Hopefully they bankrupt themself on the stupid decision to hire someone based on nepotism, it's never worked out.

 

[irishda]

Actually she got hired via nepotism. Both the company and herself admits the fact. Her boyfriend is/was one of the people responsible for hiring.

So the original person's point that she was hired because journalists hounded the developer into hiring her, thus proving that journalists have become a horrible entity that can control us all, is wrong? Got it.

Being a community manager made the fans simmering. What got them flaming was when she started doing concepting and the likes for them, it just seems like someone whose never touched a megaman game and who spammed SJW propaganda on the Kickstarter page shouldn't anywhere near concepting or art design. Or Community Manager position for that matter.

I don't know why someone arguing about greater inclusion in games is a problem for both concept art and managing a community. But then perhaps that's why I'm anti-GG in general.

 

[Nikolaz72]

Actually she got hired via nepotism. Both the company and herself admits the fact. Her boyfriend is/was one of the people responsible for hiring.

So the original person's point that she was hired because journalists hounded the developer into hiring her, thus proving that journalists have become a horrible entity that can control us all, is wrong? Got it.

Being a community manager made the fans simmering. What got them flaming was when she started doing concepting and the likes for them, it just seems like someone whose never touched a megaman game and who spammed SJW propaganda on the Kickstarter page shouldn't anywhere near concepting or art design. Or Community Manager position for that matter.

I don't know why someone arguing about greater inclusion in games is a problem for both concept art and managing a community. But then perhaps that's why I'm anti-GG in general.

The problem was mostly that she had no idea what made a megaman game good having never played one and had infact been insulting megaman fans. She just seemed like the wrong person to hire as a bridge between the community and the company.

What with not knowing the first thing about megaman, and already having made herself an enemy of the community at the time she was hired.

Journalists mostly defended the nepotism which is where I think the person you originally spoke to came from. If not for the positive media coverage of her, and if not for the fact that she's a she- she would have been fired long ago for being toxic to the community and possibly single handedly causing the company bankruptcy mid-development.

 

[Jux]

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/2014/10/02/gamergate-intel-faces-backlash-for-pulling-gamasutra-ads/
http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6886747/intel-buckles-to-anti-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/intel-pulls-ads-from-gamasutra/

yeah, there was backlash.

Backlash isn't the same thing as a hate campaign. Where is the harassment that intel is supposedly facing?

Gamergate and #Notyourshield are one and the same. They're both tied to each other. #notyourshield spawned from gamergate.

They aren't the same, sorry. One is supposedly a movement against corrupt journalism, the other is calling out people for using minorities as a shield against criticism.

I snipped the rest because you're obfuscating. You claimed I belittled minorities and that journalists not only set their fans on people, but that I defended such a thing. Until you either provide evidence for such a thing, or apologize for trying to smear me, I'm going to simply snip every soapbox speech you give as a response that doesn't address this and reiterate that I'm still waiting for quotes and sources.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.

Odd, I've been saying that a small, loud, toxic minority who pretend to be the ur-gamer is the problem. The fact that those asshats started a massive whining session when forums kicked them out for being horrible has expanded into this whole "journalistic integrity" thing is odd to me. Seems seeing one group of "gamers" getting called on their shit doesn't mean "all gamers" are getting attacked. I've been a gamer for 20 years and nothing in those "Gamers are Dead" articles were an attack on me or any of the gamers I know.

Because the gamers I know aren't asshats.

For that matter, I wasn't claiming it was "the end of the world", I'm saying that the articles GG is having a whine fest over didn't happen in a vacuum. Loud "gamers" being toxic little shits has been a problem for a long time now, and this sort of thing happens whenever anybody dares call them on their shit.

 

[Jux]

Yeah, predictable. Minimize it. Act like when one side does it it's the end of the world and proof that an entire group of people are worthy of condemnation, but when the side you agree with does it it's not big deal and the people deserve it. You prove yourself to be a hypocrite. Next time, keep it to yourself.

Odd, I've been saying that a small, loud, toxic minority who pretend to be the ur-gamer is the problem. The fact that those asshats started a massive whining session when forums kicked them out for being horrible has expanded into this whole "journalistic integrity" thing is odd to me. Seems seeing one group of "gamers" getting called on their shit doesn't mean "all gamers" are getting attacked. I've been a gamer for 20 years and nothing in those "Gamers are Dead" articles were an attack on me or any of the gamers I know.

Because the gamers I know aren't asshats.

For that matter, I wasn't claiming it was "the end of the world", I'm saying that the articles GG is having a whine fest over didn't happen in a vacuum. Loud "gamers" being toxic little shits has been a problem for a long time now, and this sort of thing happens whenever anybody dares call them on their shit.

I'll second this. I looked at those articles, and while I felt some of them were a bit over the top, not once did I feel any of that was directed at me.

 

[TheSYLOH]

You also don't have to be afraid to say you don't care one way or another.

Simply put, even at this point I don't even know which side is which.
How has that affected me?
In no way, shape or form!

Seriously, there's a fairly arbitrary line drawn in the sand that two groups are shouting across, with nobody changing their minds and nothing at stake.

Why bother?