You don't have to be afraid of taking a public stance against #GamerGate.

redlemon

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Zachary Amaranth said:
redlemon said:
All of them. Well, except trying to get people fired. But those corrupt journalists really have to go.
Only if "corrupt" means people who disagree with gamergate conspiracies and nothing more.

But then, you lost me at "all of them," because you'd have to pretend the doxing and such that happened didn't.

And at that point, I might as well pretend that gamergaters staged their doxing (etc), since it'd be on the same level.
Try "people who are blatantly lying and manipulating public opinion".

Gamergate doesn't condone harassment or doxxing. They immediately condemn harassment when it happens. And the recent Wu doxxing? The threats didn't even mention Gamergate. And then Gamergators went and investigated, tracked down the person responsible, and informed the FBI. But again, you wouldn't know about this because the media will never report it.

And I don't remember any DDOS that was blamed on Gamergate.
 

broadcaststatic

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Hey Guys! It's the OP! So I went to work, hung out with my girlfriend, and now I'm finding that this thread got HUGE. It's been a hell of a read. Here are my highlights:

1) The guy claiming another guy was 'belittling minorities' because, since #GamerGate and #NotYourShield are the same movement, being critical of #NotYourShield is the same thing as ignoring minority voices and being guilty of actual racism.

I found this to be a very peculiar interpretation of the phrase "Not Your Shield." I don't think GamerGate is a wholly white movement, I think it's a wholly misguided and counterproductive movement-- I don't need anyone to be my shield for that. I'm saying it directly to you, through my keyboard. If you're a minority and you say the kind of weird conspiratorial nonsense I see GG saying all the time, yeah, I'd be dismissive too. Not because anyone's a minority. Because I think GamerGate on the whole is fundamentally and deliberately misinterpreting *editorial* freedom of expression for oppression and censorship. You can be black, white, or calico and still be open to criticism for the words comin' out of your mouth, or your fingers, in most of these cases-- saying that #NotYourShield and #GamerGate are so intertwined that criticism of GG has racial overtones is using #NotYourShield as, well, *A SHIELD*. That whole argument I found kind of amazing-- is GG as a whole really trying to reframe this as being kindly, caring, respectful GamerGate against those monstrous, racist, anti-semitic journalists? Are they really going to try to make the hilariously contradictory accusation that "Social Justice Warriors" are hateful towards disenfranchised groups? Or is it just this jackass?

2) How folks have treated the user 'Not The Bees'. She had a really solid initial point-- *I* might not mind the consequences of speaking out against GamerGate, but for most folks, the weight of condescending bullshit thrown their way is too much of a hassle to want to ever get sucked into it. Then, several pages later, about three GG's hassle her with condescending bullshit. I'm sorry that Not Your Bees had to be the audience volunteer that demonstrated why GamerGate looks so unappealing and problematic from the outside, but it's illustrative to have in the thread:

Skeptical Outsider: I don't like talking about my opinion because I get disrespectfully treated by a half dozen strangers every time I do.

A Half Dozen Strangers: Well, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about, how about you provide sources and citations for all of your reasonable, mild opinions and we'll pretend to take you seriously for two seconds before saying something shitty to you again.

3) I'm surprised by the people who are all like "OP's wrong, it's bullshit on both sides, don't say anything." The guy who was like "Oh, I *KNOW* you're gonna call me a coward for not having an opinion, 'cause you're just as bad as them," was a standout. I mean, that's just way off the mark. If you don't care, you don't care, I'm talking about people like the user I mentioned last paragraph, who get really irked by GamerGate but say nothing because it's not worth the hassle and the bullshit. And hassle and bullshit is something that you really do have to put up with if you even remotely criticize GamerGate-- my point is that actual hacking, doxxing, the serious threats don't seem to trickle down to the user level. Just the endless self-aggrandizement. Taking the time to stand behind your opinion that GG is a lot of toxic nonsense if that *is* your opinion is worthwhile, and I think it's important to stand with the folks who love games but feel alienated by this whole thing. If it really is about anti-censorship, you'll be fine. If it isn't, you're helping prove the hypocrisy. If you're willing. I think it's worth it to be willing.
 

tm96

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I'm begining to suspect most people's patience on GG is wearing thin. Its been two months since this hurricane started. I avoided saying something because of how big an impenetrable clusterfuck this has become.

I want to echo some sentiments. GG, I think is a great idea but you are still in the same place with only a small amount of victories. Just get organised. That is all you to earn my sympathy and make some big changes like what happened here on the Escapist. Isn't that want you want?
 

redlemon

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broadcaststatic said:
Houseman said:
broadcaststatic said:
But none of that happened. She wasn't even called a bad name.
You're right, all you did was make a woman with a mild opinion feel alienated and uncomfortable. Obviously, that has nothing to do with GG's PR problems.
It doesn't. GG's PR problems come from the media that they're fighting against. You can't understand what's truly going on without understanding this first.
 

broadcaststatic

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Ultratwinkie said:
"social justice" is just a lie those white journalists tell to other white people to make themselves look good, but when push comes to shove they are just as hateful as any 4channer.

So don't come around here trying to spin the very real pain that happened in notyourshield. It was what proved that the industry is still deeply racist and beyond saving.
About how long did this argument take to arrive from left field? How were shipping costs?
 

broadcaststatic

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Ultratwinkie said:
broadcaststatic said:
Ultratwinkie said:
Nice to know you can't keep track of your own arguments.
Well, I did lose track of the fact that you're the guy I was talking about in my number one paragraph. So, I suppose the answer to my question is "Yes, just this guy."

But who am I to argue with a WORDSMITH EXRTRAORDINAIRE!
 

ThreeName

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broadcaststatic said:
You're right, all you did was make a woman with a mild opinion feel alienated and uncomfortable. Obviously, that has nothing to do with GG's PR problems.
Oh noes, a woman feels bad! See guys, it's worse because she's a female! QED, everyone is a misogynist!

Their gender is relevant because you fucking want to be. The only people pushing the separation of gender around here are people like you who can't help but push it into everything. GG's problem is on your end, not theirs.
 

KokujinTensai

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I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but the whole GaymerX affair invalidates this topic. They made a NEUTRAL stance and were BULLIED into denouncing it.

But hey what do I know I'm just a angry, misogynistic pissbaby uncle tom.
 

broadcaststatic

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Houseman said:
How did I make her feel alienated and uncomfortable?
By engaging with her in exactly the same ways she stated make her feel that way in her initial post.


Not The Bees said:
And it's more or less still this way. On Twitter, or Youtube, or god forbid in a thread here on Escapist dominated by the Gamergate people (with the exception of about a half dozen of some very nice, sensible, and lovely people that I would say I truly enjoy debating), anything you say that falls out of line of what they think you have:

A) Not done your research (to whit I say bullshit, I've read every article, read all the threads, and watched the videos)
B) Am trying to derail conversations (to whit I say bullshit, the conversation was already derailed, I was only making a point, the thread brought up X,Y,Z and I was only trying to add my two cents in as someone who had experience in that field)
C) Am just some SJW feminist (to whit I say stop trying to call me a feminist. I'm not. I never have been. I'm a pacifist, I'm a teacher, and I'm a woman, but those are the only labels I call myself. Stop putting me in a box)
D) Won't bring in evidence (to whit I say, I just posted 10 effing links that none of you bothered to read. I even brought in blogs that I wrote trying to help smooth things out for GG people, though I know I'm only a small time blogger, but I was only met with disdain or ignoring.
E) Ignored all out (to whit I say, I prefer this one all together)


So maybe I don't have to be afraid, but I sure don't feel comfortable. And quite frankly, I think that's a lot worse. At least I know what to do when I'm afraid. I can fight back. Right now I'm not even sure I want to continue to visit the Escapist any longer, as it's no longer a website that makes me feel welcomed. I'm more of an outsider here than I ever was in high school
Of course, her specific reaction *to you* was more 'weary irritation' than discomfort, I took my cues from what she originally said. And if you can't see that not even remotely listening to how average people outside GamerGate (and she did go out of her way to show she's an educated, informed reader) react to the way you conduct your arguments isn't a PR problem, and you're content to blame games journalists for GG's iffy reputation, I don't imagine you're ever going to come close to solving your image problems.

I think the first step of GamerGate looking like it actually listens to women is by actually listening to women.
 

Erttheking

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DANEgerous said:
Good please do not fear #GamerGate we do not want you to fear us, just hear us.
*Sigh* it really breaks my heart when people like you honestly just want to make a change for the better. But I'm sorry, I really am man. I'm not happy about the bullshit going on with some journalists, but I just can't throw in my hat with gamergate. There's just too much bullshit going on there. I mean look at half of the gamergate topics on this website. complete bile everywhere you look. And I'm too scared to look into the megathread.

I'm sorry man, I really am. But I just can't wade through the hatred to find the good points, no matter how legitimate they are. And that's without getting into how I'd have to wade through the hatred from the anti-gamergate side, and that's just more than I can handle.

I'm going to go do something less complex and watch King Lear.
 

Something Amyss

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broadcaststatic said:
I think the first step of GamerGate looking like it actually listens to women is by actually listening to women.

Well, you just made my day a touch brighter. Glad to see someone say that.