Young South Korean Men Revolt Against Feminism in South Korea

tstorm823

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The important thing is, the culture we live in is full of sexual predators, most of whom are men.
I'm not sure that's as obviously true as you want it to be. Female sexual predation may not be viewed the same way by society or the law, but that does not make it less prevalent.
Because I think this is not where the problem is. I don't think this needs to be about rape, it can be about any sin or crime as I think we all have the potential to do anything bad: rape, theft, murder, etc.

To an extent that's what moral conduct is all about. Trying to make sure we do the right thing requires both that we learn what is wrong and accept that we might can do something wrong.
Everyone is inherently a sinner from birth, and avoiding sin requires an informed conscience, if you care to borrow the Catholic phrasing.
 

Silvanus

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I'm not sure that's as obviously true as you want it to be. Female sexual predation may not be viewed the same way by society or the law, but that does not make it less prevalent.
By every metric we've used to measure it, sexual predation by men is vastly more common than sexual predation by women.

Whether we go by allegations, charges, convictions, reported instances, or anything else.
 

tstorm823

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By every metric we've used to measure it, sexual predation by men is vastly more common than sexual predation by women.

Whether we go by allegations, charges, convictions, reported instances, or anything else.
Reread what I wrote, and try again please. Feel free to ask questions.
 

Agema

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There is actually not that much intellectual merit in forcing real life events, statistics and alike to fit your worldview, no matter how many technical words you have learned during your curriculum you attach to it. Anybody can nitpick certain phenomena and take the one interpretation that would confirm their pre-made conclusion while ignoring all others. It seems that what determines how interesting the theories are is a matter of bias towards the posited theory and person presenting it.

Take the following: " Taking responsibility also means acknowledging that even if you are not a predator, even if you've never hurt anyone, the fact that you culturally resemble people who do is not an accident. "

If used by a (far) right wing person regarding issues prevalent among the muslim community for example, it suddenly would lose all its intellectual merit and I am certain the person saying it would receive a lot of negative labels by the same people who are defending this line of thought right now.

"But if we accept that predators can look like us, that they can share the same cultural expression and cultural identity as us, then we have to ask an incredibly difficult and troubling question. What is it about our behaviour which makes it possible for predators to be predators and still look like us? What is it that we do which can camouflage predation? How do we fit into a culture that allows predators to thrive?"

This part is a further development on the guilt by cultural association.
Why are you so focused on "guilt" and feeling like someone's trying to blame you?

It is a relevant question to ask, what is it about the millions of things people do that allows bad people to carry on in their midst? I think what's being asked for in terms of taking responsibility is something more akin to Bystander training, albeit behaviour a lower level than the overt inappropriateness and potential danger that Bystander focuses on. It is in this sense that your analogy is wrong. In fact we are all to some degree asked to take responsibility and look out for and discourage unhealthy attitudes that may lead to harm, every day as citizens and workers, and Muslims are no exception to that.

Where I think we have a blind spot is that where something like Islamofascism sticks out a mile as a specific problem, unhealthy male attitudes to women and sex are much more easily written off as "locker room" talk, or "boys will be boys". Boys and men do take pride in how many women they've screwed, how hot those women were, and use it as a form of measuring themselves socially. It's "natural", so the feeling often goes, not harmful. At the extreme this is much of why incels exist, because they feel their lack of sex humiliates them and makes them inferior, but at a lower level it's also prevalent. Does anyone really feel confident to claim a drive to screw women will not encourage males to press harder and further, and that this will lead to sexual assault?

I think about the recent case of a policeman who sexually assaulted and murdered a woman in London. He had quite the history of talking about women with fellow officers that made numerous female colleagues uncomfortable, but which some of his male colleagues passed off as apparently normal to the point that at the trial some wrote letters of support for him as a good police officer. Predators camouflaged in plain sight, indeed: right in the middle of a police force.

It's difficult, because many if not most heterosexual men have got involved in this sort of social measuring themselves - I know I have. Here perhaps guilt is a thing, because if the issue is posed that the penis-measuring we got up to (and potentially still do) is an element of unhealthy attitudes that leads some men to sexual assault, then we have been part of the problem. But adult responsibility is also reflecting on our actions, accepting we may have erred and trying to do better. I understand instictive resentment of criticism because it's emotionally painful, but I just don't think it's a useful or mature way to go about one's life.
 
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Silvanus

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Reread what I wrote, and try again please. Feel free to ask questions.
Lord, the condescension.

You're implying female sexual predation is as prevalent as male sexual predation. It's entirely relevant to point out that by all available metrics, that doesn't appear to be anywhere near true.
 

gorfias

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Lord, the condescension.

You're implying female sexual predation is as prevalent as male sexual predation. It's entirely relevant to point out that by all available metrics, that doesn't appear to be anywhere near true.
From what @tstorm823 writes, you are likely thinking of sexual predation in terms that are not all inclusive. I'm sure men are more likely to jump from some bushes onto an unsuspecting woman. But how often do women see a man to whom they are attracted, and begin to do whatever it takes, including manipulation, to get what she wants from such a man? I don't know how you would even get metrics on the topic.
 

Generals

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Why are you so focused on "guilt" and feeling like someone's trying to blame you?
Not blaming "me" specifically but there is a very clearly implied collective burden.

It is a relevant question to ask, what is it about the millions of things people do that allows bad people to carry on in their midst? I think what's being asked for in terms of taking responsibility is something more akin to Bystander training, albeit behaviour a lower level than the overt inappropriateness and potential danger that Bystander focuses on. It is in this sense that your analogy is wrong. In fact we are all to some degree asked to take responsibility and look out for and discourage unhealthy attitudes that may lead to harm, every day as citizens and workers, and Muslims are no exception to that.
The problem is that the questions imply a certain conclusion is already valid. That it is a behavior linked in one way or another to the dominant culture. Otherwise the answers would always be: not relevant. It is not about asking people to help out someone who's being raped in front of them. It is about reflecting about how our culture allows or even encourages such behavior. A culture we de-facto contribute to since a "culture" is nothing more but an abstract concept referring to the prevailing habits, beliefs, ideals and values. Consequently we're de-facto more or less "guilty".

Where I think we have a blind spot is that where something like Islamofascism sticks out a mile as a specific problem, unhealthy male attitudes to women and sex are much more easily written off as "locker room" talk, or "boys will be boys". Boys and men do take pride in how many women they've screwed, how hot those women were, and use it as a form of measuring themselves socially. It's "natural", so the feeling often goes, not harmful. At the extreme this is much of why incels exist, because they feel their lack of sex humiliates them and makes them inferior, but at a lower level it's also prevalent. Does anyone really feel confident to claim a drive to screw women will not encourage males to press harder and further, and that this will lead to sexual assault?

I think about the recent case of a policeman who sexually assaulted and murdered a woman in London. He had quite the history of talking about women with fellow officers that made numerous female colleagues uncomfortable, but which some of his male colleagues passed off as apparently normal to the point that at the trial some wrote letters of support for him as a good police officer. Predators camouflaged in plain sight, indeed: right in the middle of a police force.

It's difficult, because many if not most heterosexual men have got involved in this sort of social measuring themselves - I know I have. Here perhaps guilt is a thing, because if the issue is posed that the penis-measuring we got up to (and potentially still do) is an element of unhealthy attitudes that leads some men to sexual assault, then we have been part of the problem. But adult responsibility is also reflecting on our actions, accepting we may have erred and trying to do better. I understand instictive resentment of criticism because it's emotionally painful, but I just don't think it's a useful or mature way to go about one's life.

One has to wonder how prevailing these unhealthy attitudes are though. Yes there are subgroups and subcultures where macho men liked to brag about all that and depending on the age groups they may have been more or less prevalent but it is by far not something to which even a majority of men partake.

I would also argue that a lot of the minimization of certain behaviors can be less culturally rather than psychologically motivated. Sometimes people don't want to see the evil people they otherwise like or admire commit. It's like with Donald Trump, Trumpists were eager to minimize his toxic behavior but a democrat wouldn't have been given the same leeway. So it's not necessarily about saying "rape is not bad" but instead "it's not possible this guy I love did that". And this can extend to plenty of behaviors and is, I believe, rather cross-cultural.

I would also like to point out how these paragraphs kind of render your first phrase rather odd as you illustrated the issue with examples which involve collective guilt. And don't get me wrong in some cases the collective guilt is correct, especially if you drill down to specific groups and how they reacted to specific situations. But making statements about the broader cultural context and saying everyone belonging to that culture should ask themselves these questions clearly implies the collective guilt extends to society as a whole, or in this case I guess the (straight?) male sex.
And that is the problem.
 
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tstorm823

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Lord, the condescension.

You're implying female sexual predation is as prevalent as male sexual predation. It's entirely relevant to point out that by all available metrics, that doesn't appear to be anywhere near true.
Those metrics are based heavily in societal and legal biases. Women take part in lots of predatory behavior that just isn't against the law, and even the things that are against the law go unreported.

The point I intend to get to is that people, not men but people, can be jerks. People, not just men, use each other for sex, and use all varieties of manipulation and coercion to do so. I'm not sure if you're following everything said by Terminal Blue (who I am familiar enough with the background of from past exchanges, but they've done the service of really spelling it out in the previous page) but Terminal Blue no longer identifies as a man, which makes their judgment aimed at specifically men incredibly suspect. Double suspect is when a person who has stopped identifying as a man recommends to others that since rapists are hiding in the crowd of men, we should really all be considering what we could do to not provide cover for them... you know... like Terminal did.
 

Thaluikhain

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I would also argue that a lot of the minimization of certain behaviors can be less culturally rather than psychologically motivated. Sometimes people don't want to see the evil people they otherwise like or admire commit. It's like with Donald Trump, Trumpists were eager to minimize his toxic behavior but a democrat wouldn't have been given the same leeway. So it's not necessarily about saying "rape is not bad" but instead "it's not possible this guy I love did that". And this can extend to plenty of behaviors and is, I believe, rather cross-cultural.
I'm not sure that that's that different from what Terminal Blue was saying. That certain people are seen as the sort to do or not do certain things. Partially I think this is the way that if people don't swear in front of their grandma their grandma doesn't think they swear in front of anyone else.

In any case, to extend that a little, you still end up with situations where someone respectable is clearly guilty, and to avoid having to think of them as rapists, people can re-define what they did as not being rape. There's always some reason to do this, especially as there is a narrative about what real rape is supposed to be like. It doesn't seem that different from the whole "my grandfather isn't really racist, he was just brought up in a different time" excuse, behaviour which is condemned in hypotheticals gets excused in reality.
 

Silvanus

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From what @tstorm823 writes, you are likely thinking of sexual predation in terms that are not all inclusive. I'm sure men are more likely to jump from some bushes onto an unsuspecting woman. But how often do women see a man to whom they are attracted, and begin to do whatever it takes, including manipulation, to get what she wants from such a man? I don't know how you would even get metrics on the topic.
I have no idea how common that is (though I've also seen more sexually manipulative behaviour from men, but of course that's anecdotal).

Point is, we don't have any data on that. And the only data we do have points to sexually abusive behaviour coming from men much more often. Why would we assume that all the data we don't have somehow levels the playing field? It's a huge leap.

Those metrics are based heavily in societal and legal biases. Women take part in lots of predatory behavior that just isn't against the law, and even the things that are against the law go unreported.

The point I intend to get to is that people, not men but people, can be jerks. People, not just men, use each other for sex, and use all varieties of manipulation and coercion to do so.
Sure, people are terrible. But your argument went significantly beyond that.

If you believe that there is parity between sexual predation from men and from women, then you're assuming there's an absolutely enormous amount of unseen data about which we know nothing. It's kind of on you to provide some reason to believe that's the case.

Terminal Blue no longer identifies as a man, which makes their judgment aimed at specifically men incredibly suspect.
This is sheer prejudice. "X is from a certain demographic, so they're untrustworthy". That can fuck right off.

Double suspect is when a person who has stopped identifying as a man recommends to others that since rapists are hiding in the crowd of men, we should really all be considering what we could do to not provide cover for them... you know... like Terminal did.
...Are you actually kidding me? You're just going to invoke the rancid old trope of accusing LGBT people of "recruiting"?
 

Seanchaidh

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Let's leave aside hegemonic masculinity for a second because it's clearly tripping people up and I don't want to have to explain it (even though it's incredibly formative of my position) because at this point it's become work.
I don't know how much you agree with the accuracy of this, but for anyone who wants to look, I've saved you the google search:
 

tstorm823

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If you believe that there is parity between sexual predation from men and from women, then you're assuming there's an absolutely enormous amount of unseen data about which we know nothing. It's kind of on you to provide some reason to believe that's the case.
Unkept data, of which we know quite a lot qualitatively. Women go out to bars looking to have sex, just like men do, where their sexual prey is inebriated and easily manipulated, just like men's prey, and then they have their way for the night, all exactly the same, but we recognize one as sexual predation and not the other. Are women less touchy than men? No, but one gets reported as sexual assault. "By our double standards, men are more often sexual predators." Real meaningful point.
This is sheer prejudice. "X is from a certain demographic, so they're untrustworthy". That can fuck right off.
You know that's not what I said. You want rancid? How about the person espousing blatant bigotry and passing it off as some inciteful cultural criticism. I think that's a bit worse than anything you can pretend that I said.
 

Silvanus

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Unkept data, of which we know quite a lot qualitatively. Women go out to bars looking to have sex, just like men do, where their sexual prey is inebriated and easily manipulated, just like men's prey, and then they have their way for the night, all exactly the same, but we recognize one as sexual predation and not the other. Are women less touchy than men? No, but one gets reported as sexual assault. "By our double standards, men are more often sexual predators." Real meaningful point.
You're just claiming that they're just as touchy. The data doesn't back you up, so you claim the data is incomplete... okay, fine. Then give me a reason to think it's so incomplete as to make up the shortfall. Right now all I have is you saying it's just as common, with nothing solid to point at.

Why should I take your word for it that all this unkept data bridges the entire gap between kept data and your claim? Because that's an enormous gap to bridge.

You know that's not what I said. You want rancid? How about the person espousing blatant bigotry and passing it off as some inciteful cultural criticism. I think that's a bit worse than anything you can pretend that I said.
You directly said that what Terminal said is "suspect", specifically because they "no longer identify as a man".

So yes, you're judging their trustworthiness on one of their characteristics. Don't try to worm your way out of that prejudicial insinuation.
 
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tstorm823

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You're just claiming that they're just as touchy. The data doesn't back you up, so you claim the data is incomplete... okay, fine. Then give me a reason to think it's so incomplete as to make up the shortfall. Right now all I have is you saying it's just as common, with nothing solid to point at.

Why should I take your word for it that all this unkept data bridges the entire gap between kept data and your claim? Because that's an enormous gap to bridge.
I don't expect you to take my word for it. I expect you to think for yourself through your own experiences and recognize the truth in what I'm saying. We all know that disparity in data is not reflective of reality. I've personally known exactly two people who have ever said they got a person drunk to convince them to have sex, and both times the perpetrator was a woman. No statistic contains those events.
You directly said that what Terminal said is "suspect", specifically because they "no longer identify as a man".
It's not about the specific identity in question, it's that the person speaking doesn't identify with those being criticized. A man criticizing all women is a different thing than a woman criticizing all women. A black man complaining about black people is different than a white man complaining about black people. Criticism of your own identity is not the same thing as criticism of "the other". Terminal Blue is currently criticizing "the other".
 

Breakdown

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You directly said that what Terminal said is "suspect", specifically because they "no longer identify as a man".

So yes, you're judging their trustworthiness on one of their characteristics. Don't try to worm your way out of that prejudicial insinuation.
That's pretty standard in identity politics though. A man doesn't understand what it is to be a woman. A cis person doesn't understand what it is to be trans. A non-binary person brought up as male is going to have their own unique perspective, but it's not going to be the same perspective as a cis man. Stay in your lane and all that.

For example, one of the statements earlier on in the thread is that it's awful being brought up as a boy - do you think most men would agree with that?
 

Generals

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I'm not sure that that's that different from what Terminal Blue was saying. That certain people are seen as the sort to do or not do certain things. Partially I think this is the way that if people don't swear in front of their grandma their grandma doesn't think they swear in front of anyone else.
Yes and no. Terminal was indeed referring to said bias, however he twisted it into a men's culture issue, which it isn't. This is a cross gender and cross cultural psychological issue which impacts us all to a certain degree.

In any case, to extend that a little, you still end up with situations where someone respectable is clearly guilty, and to avoid having to think of them as rapists, people can re-define what they did as not being rape. There's always some reason to do this, especially as there is a narrative about what real rape is supposed to be like. It doesn't seem that different from the whole "my grandfather isn't really racist, he was just brought up in a different time" excuse, behaviour which is condemned in hypotheticals gets excused in reality.
I think it's totally different from the grandfather example. In the grandfather example the "crime" is not denied, it is merely contextualized. It's a form of cultural relativism.
On the other hand the bias I am referring to usually involves a distortion or denial of the facts.
 

Agema

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One has to wonder how prevailing these unhealthy attitudes are though. Yes there are subgroups and subcultures where macho men liked to brag about all that and depending on the age groups they may have been more or less prevalent but it is by far not something to which even a majority of men partake.
I suspect a great number of men don't necessarily get involved in this behaviour, but they are affected by it and take in at some level that there is pride to be had from screwing as many (preferably attractive) women as possible. And that even if they are happy not screwing women, they may be aware that others could look down on them for not having done so.

I would also like to point out how these paragraphs kind of render your first phrase rather odd as you illustrated the issue with examples which involve collective guilt.
It's not collective guilt, though. An imam who attempts to sway Muslims from extremism should not have to feel guilty for an imam that does not. A man who rejects objectification of women and opposes it in others should not have to feel guilty for a man that does. (They might though, because sometimes when people identify themselves with groups they take criticism or failings of the group personally.) If we all have a responsibility to be good citizens, it exists on an individual level. If we say certain tendencies exist within a demographic, as long as we are not bigots we accept that it is not necessarily true of all individuals within that demographic and do not prejudge individuals.
 

Silvanus

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I don't expect you to take my word for it. I expect you to think for yourself through your own experiences and recognize the truth in what I'm saying. We all know that disparity in data is not reflective of reality. I've personally known exactly two people who have ever said they got a person drunk to convince them to have sex, and both times the perpetrator was a woman. No statistic contains those events.
I thought through my own experiences long before I posted that comment, and have already said above: I've also seen sexually manipulative behaviour from men far more commonly than from women. It's not even close.

Not that my experiences or yours are particularly compelling on this point: anecdote cannot bridge this gap. You're making an enormous statistical claim. You need something more solid.

It's not about the specific identity in question, it's that the person speaking doesn't identify with those being criticized. A man criticizing all women is a different thing than a woman criticizing all women. A black man complaining about black people is different than a white man complaining about black people. Criticism of your own identity is not the same thing as criticism of "the other". Terminal Blue is currently criticizing "the other".
Oh, sure. As fucking if you would have used the term "incredibly suspect" in reference to a cis woman talking about men.
 

Kwak

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I don't expect you to take my word for it. I expect you to think for yourself through your own experiences and recognize the truth in what I'm saying. We all know that disparity in data is not reflective of reality.
'Reality' here is your personal experience. That is not superior to data collected from hundreds and thousands of individual 'realities', which is why anecdotes are not data, until you collect and systemise hundreds and thousands of them.