Young South Korean Men Revolt Against Feminism in South Korea

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2013
4,316
256
88
Finland
You bring it back to very concrete things that we can point to. That's not the point exactly. Terminal Blue wrote earlier:
But if we accept that predators can look like us, that they can share the same cultural expression and cultural identity as us, then we have to ask an incredibly difficult and troubling question. What is it about our behavior which makes it possible for predators to be predators and still look like us? What is it that we do which can camouflage predation? How do we fit into a culture that allows predators to thrive?
This isn't a problem if the locker room misogynist turns out to be one in relationships also. Thus far in this thread we have people who haven't had a problem recognizing clear differences between themselves and the scumbag personality that's apparently the problem. With that in mind it's tough accept the premise that slipping into predatory behavior is waiting for everyone around the bend. Let's discard it and accept instead that people generally think that success with women is the way to be manlier and thus better in the eyes of other men if it isn't rape. Now it makes perfect sense to hide, excuse, and redefine predatory behavior. And if one thinks pushing boundaries just the right amount means success (and slowing down and/or refusal is the other person's responsibility), why not do it? Makes sense to me at least.

But men recognize the flaw in that thinking much better than given credit for here. We get it's a fantasy, and while it certainly exists in our psyche as a way to process real information there is no concern for a mix-up.

Now the troubling question. We are at the peak equilibrium on freedom vs safety. Sure there can be some little optimizations but nothing grand. Like, talking about this publicly makes you a pariah at the drop of a hat (unless one is with likeminded people -> creates a circlejerk). About fitting into a culture that enables predators; it doesn't seem to be a problem I can have any effect on so whatever, but I welcome the discussion.
As fucking if you would have used the term "incredibly suspect" in reference to a cis woman talking about men.
That's a low-hanging fruit in this sausage-fest.
 

Generals

Elite Member
May 19, 2020
537
278
68
I suspect a great number of men don't necessarily get involved in this behaviour, but they are affected by it and take in at some level that there is pride to be had from screwing as many (preferably attractive) women as possible. And that even if they are happy not screwing women, they may be aware that others could look down on them for not having done so.
Yes and no, some people do, many find there is a lot more pride to be had in having an awesome girlfriend/wife. Additionally there is nothing necessarily wrong with wanting or liking to screw many (wo)men. As long as it is consensual.

It's not collective guilt, though. An imam who attempts to sway Muslims from extremism should not have to feel guilty for an imam that does not. A man who rejects objectification of women and opposes it in others should not have to feel guilty for a man that does. (They might though, because sometimes when people identify themselves with groups they take criticism or failings of the group personally.) If we all have a responsibility to be good citizens, it exists on an individual level.
I agree with your examples here but what you say now is not what Terminal said and consequently not what you were getting at in the previous by providing a specific example which displayed clear "guilt" through inaction and denial.

Taking responsibility also means acknowledging that even if you are not a predator, even if you've never hurt anyone, the fact that you culturally resemble people who do is not an accident.

Clearly in order "to take responsibility" I have to acknowledge that people who culturally resemble me hurting people is not an accident. And since this all started with a description of "men's culture" as a man I have to acknowledge it is NOT an accident other men hurt people. Considering I am clearly a part of that culture I am, to a certain degree, part of the reason why this happens, otherwise I wouldn't be part of it (in which case i'd like the culture to be specified and not just referring to "men") or the link would be accidental. And you brought up an example where the causal link was pretty damn explicit, so extrapolated to "men's culture" you have a pretty damn clear example of a call to collective guilt.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,272
5,639
118
You bring it back to very concrete things that we can point to. That's not the point exactly. Terminal Blue wrote earlier:
This isn't a problem if the locker room misogynist turns out to be one in relationships also. Thus far in this thread we have people who haven't had a problem recognizing clear differences between themselves and the scumbag personality that's apparently the problem. With that in mind it's tough accept the premise that slipping into predatory behavior is waiting for everyone around the bend.
Firstly, again, I'd go back to post #114. This seems to argue that in fact a lot of people do not recognise the difference between themselves and scumbags: they manufacture a characterisation of scumbaggery in a way that conveniently omits stuff (chiefly, I suspect, them and theirs). And again, refer to my comment about the policeman who raped and murdered a woman in London last year. He said and did things other officers didn't seem to think problematic: a major reason for this being that they were saying and doing the same things too.

Let's discard it and accept instead that people generally think that success with women is the way to be manlier and thus better in the eyes of other men if it isn't rape. Now it makes perfect sense to hide, excuse, and redefine predatory behavior. And if one thinks pushing boundaries just the right amount means success (and slowing down and/or refusal is the other person's responsibility), why not do it? Makes sense to me at least.
Yes, that makes sense.

But men recognize the flaw in that thinking much better than given credit for here. We get it's a fantasy, and while it certainly exists in our psyche as a way to process real information there is no concern for a mix-up.
Sure, most people can tell fantasy from truth. But something is a fantasy because it has an appeal. The fantasy might be recognised as such and unobtainable, but the appeal still exists and creates a motivation to do things. Realistic things independent of the fantasy, which might not be very nice things to do.

Now the troubling question. We are at the peak equilibrium on freedom vs safety. Sure there can be some little optimizations but nothing grand. Like, talking about this publicly makes you a pariah at the drop of a hat (unless one is with likeminded people -> creates a circlejerk).
You can talk about almost anything short of outright advocating atrocity, usually you just need to be tactful about the way you do it. What people usually mean by saying they can't talk about anything is that they barrelled into a sensitive issue overconfidently, stridently, with dubious claims, bad evidence, little consideration for other people's opinion... and met a great deal of pushback.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,272
5,639
118
Clearly in order "to take responsibility" I have to acknowledge that people who culturally resemble me hurting people is not an accident. And since this all started with a description of "men's culture" as a man I have to acknowledge it is NOT an accident other men hurt people. Considering I am clearly a part of that culture I am, to a certain degree, part of the reason why this happens, otherwise I wouldn't be part of it (in which case i'd like the culture to be specified and not just referring to "men") or the link would be accidental. And you brought up an example where the causal link was pretty damn explicit, so extrapolated to "men's culture" you have a pretty damn clear example of a call to collective guilt.
No, I think you have an extended and somewhat tenuous argument to collective guilt which, whilst coherent, is well short of infallible deductive logic.
 

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2013
4,316
256
88
Finland
Firstly, again, I'd go back to post #114. This seems to argue that in fact a lot of people do not recognise the difference between themselves and scumbags: they manufacture a characterisation of scumbaggery in a way that conveniently omits stuff (chiefly, I suspect, them and theirs). And again, refer to my comment about the policeman who raped and murdered a woman in London last year. He said and did things other officers didn't seem to think problematic: a major reason for this being that they were saying and doing the same things too.
We don't know exactly what was said there and then, so who cares. Rape + murder is a shock and surprise from just talk every time. Even if my racist friend (disclaimer: we're not close and I always confronted his stupid shit) went and lynched somebody, nothing he has previously said would reduce the shock, because his history would be only words. Obviously if the guy had a criminal record and nothing to lose, but that's not the case. Anyway, people are more introspective than given credit for, just not in the same ways with the same trains of thought.

Sure, most people can tell fantasy from truth. But something is a fantasy because it has an appeal. The fantasy might be recognised as such and unobtainable, but the appeal still exists and creates a motivation to do things. Realistic things independent of the fantasy, which might not be very nice things to do.
I disagree with the bolded part. The appeal is to sometimes look through the lens of the fantasy and search for things that align. When that happens a functional person thinks it's a funny coincidence and not more (but maybe an idea for a themed party or just the cake). A maladaptive person sees it as an invitation to go deeper and look for more. In fact relating to the fantasy can become a big part of their identity (lookin' at you, weebs).

You can talk about almost anything short of outright advocating atrocity, usually you just need to be tactful about the way you do it. What people usually mean by saying they can't talk about anything is that they barreled into a sensitive issue overconfidently, stridently, with dubious claims, bad evidence, little consideration for other people's opinion... and met a great deal of pushback.
You'd think so, but this is not a topic so-called normies ever talk about. I even complained about it before in another thread that the way how "adults" talk in my university student circles is very neutered even when everyone's shitfaced.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
4,580
707
118
Country
USA
You're making an enormous statistical claim. You need something more solid.
They're comment being "less obviously true than they would like" is not an enormous statistical claim. It is a reasonable doubt.
Oh, sure. As fucking if you would have used the term "incredibly suspect" in reference to a cis woman talking about men.
You're right. If it was a cis woman making those statements, I would be infinitely more blunt than to call it "suspect". A cis woman would have total ignorance of the male experience on top of attacking a demographic she's not a part of. It would not be "incredibly suspect", it would be "blatantly shameless".
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
4,580
707
118
Country
USA
Of course all that "unkept data" proves your position. None of the kept data does.
'Reality' here is your personal experience. That is not superior to data collected from hundreds and thousands of individual 'realities', which is why anecdotes are not data, until you collect and systemise hundreds and thousands of them.
Just to be clear, you're arguing against the suggestion that crime statistics have biases.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,272
5,639
118
I disagree with the bolded part. The appeal is to sometimes look through the lens of the fantasy and search for things that align. When that happens a functional person thinks it's a funny coincidence and not more (but maybe an idea for a themed party or just the cake).
It's not a funny coincidence. Part of the appeal of Bond is he can effortlessly pull hot women with little more than bad quips and skipping all that relationship and emotional bonding stuff. So... why does that speak to them?
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
7,459
3,072
118
Country
United Kingdom
That's a low-hanging fruit in this sausage-fest.
Hey! My fruit are hanging perfectly normally, I'll have you know! It's natural for one to be slightly lower than the other!

...Oh, you were talking about... something else. Carry on. Ahem.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
7,459
3,072
118
Country
United Kingdom
They're comment being "less obviously true than they would like" is not an enormous statistical claim. It is a reasonable doubt.
According to the data we have, there is an enormous gulf between incident rates of predation from men and women.

To suggest that in reality the prevalence is the same, requires an enormous amount of overlooked data. Which is an enormous statistical claim, yes.

You're right. If it was a cis woman making those statements, I would be infinitely more blunt than to call it "suspect". A cis woman would have total ignorance of the male experience on top of attacking a demographic she's not a part of. It would not be "incredibly suspect", it would be "blatantly shameless".
You believe women are incapable of discussing issues pertaining to male violence?

That's odd, because they have a better track record of recognising it for what it is than men do.
 

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2013
4,316
256
88
Finland
It's not a funny coincidence. Part of the appeal of Bond is he can effortlessly pull hot women with little more than bad quips and skipping all that relationship and emotional bonding stuff. So... why does that speak to them?
Yes, something in real life resembling a fantasy is a funny coincidence. We're talking about people who have no issues separating fantasy and reality here. Every other day I entertain the fantasy of having access to completely disposable dolls (aka females of the species homo sapiens). That would be really nice. It would be crazy to happen in reality. Bond visits exotic locations and doesn't get diarrhea either, and if he does it's scripted. Moreover, Bond's appeal has been discussed in this thread multiple times already.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
4,580
707
118
Country
USA
To suggest that in reality the prevalence is the same, requires an enormous amount of overlooked data. Which is an enormous statistical claim, yes.
There is infinite data in the universe that is not being kept by anyone. It is a really minor point to say a lot of data is overlooked.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
7,459
3,072
118
Country
United Kingdom
There is infinite data in the universe that is not being kept by anyone. It is a really minor point to say a lot of data is overlooked.
Sure, and the same could be said to handwave away any conclusion backed by data that doesn't suit you.

You're not merely saying it's overlooked. You're saying it points a certain way, and that the ratio is so drastically in one direction that it overturns all kept data.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
7,363
1,668
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Isn't that true though? Or at least, very close to true?
I don't think it is.

Because I think this is not where the problem is. I don't think this needs to be about rape, it can be about any sin or crime as I think we all have the potential to do anything bad: rape, theft, murder, etc.
I think that rape is a very specific type of crime that is much more difficult to morally justify than others. Theft can be moral if a man steals because he's hungry and can't afford food. Murder can be morally just if you kill someone in defense of yourself or others.

There isn't a moral justification for rape.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Generals

Elite Member
May 19, 2020
537
278
68
No, I think you have an extended and somewhat tenuous argument to collective guilt which, whilst coherent, is well short of infallible deductive logic.
As plenty of people have taken offense to the sexist theory about "men's culture" which was posited I'll stand by my analysis.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hawki

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,272
5,639
118
I think that rape is a very specific type of crime that is much more difficult to morally justify than others.
I think you're in danger here of assuming forced rape with violent assault. But we know perfectly well a lot of other rape occurs, and I think some of that is something people can much more easily justify to themselves in the heat of the moment. Such as two people out on a night out, they're getting on well, one of them gets blind drunk and is taken home, where the other takes advantage. There are forms of intimidating people into compliance (think some PUA shit), and people can much more readily tell themselves that they had consent, or at least the facsimile of it that is someone not stopping them.

I think you're also looking at this very rationally, and overestimating the rationality of others. I've watched some real police dramas, and I was staggered to see some people, when the police have laid the proof of their sins in front of them, hopelessly protest that they aren't a rapist, or a child abuser. I don't think this is just some feeble last gasp denial as if the police are going to say it's all okay then and withdraw the charges. I think they simply have not managed to fully conceive of what they have done as wrong.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
15,672
1,318
118
I think you're in danger here of assuming forced rape with violent assault. But we know perfectly well a lot of other rape occurs, and I think some of that is something people can much more easily justify to themselves in the heat of the moment. Such as two people out on a night out, they're getting on well, one of them gets blind drunk and is taken home, where the other takes advantage. There are forms of intimidating people into compliance (think some PUA shit), and people can much more readily tell themselves that they had consent, or at least the facsimile of it that is someone not stopping them.

I think you're also looking at this very rationally, and overestimating the rationality of others. I've watched some real police dramas, and I was staggered to see some people, when the police have laid the proof of their sins in front of them, hopelessly protest that they aren't a rapist, or a child abuser. I don't think this is just some feeble last gasp denial as if the police are going to say it's all okay then and withdraw the charges. I think they simply have not managed to fully conceive of what they have done as wrong.
And to add to that, it's not just the rapists. Lots of "normal" people when hearing about a rape will find it doesn't fit their idea of rape and thus doesn't count. They had consensual sex in the past, the victim consented to some stuff, the rapist took the victim out to dinner and was owed sex, they were married etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Agema

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
4,580
707
118
Country
USA
You're not merely saying it's overlooked. You're saying it points a certain way, and that the ratio is so drastically in one direction that it overturns all kept data.
I am merely saying it's overlooked. They data we keep is insufficient to reach a meaningful conclusion.