Your Childhood is Batman
- Thread starter Firefilm
- Start date
Oh, Dan, trying to pretend you don't remember Street Sharks. It's okay, really. Street Sharks was awesome for it's time, you can admit to liking it.
I find it humorous that in a debate about best comic book cartoon adaptation, one of the key points in TMNT's favor is that the original comic version is so obscure that most still don't know of it.
PS: Batman Beyond had Mark Hamill as the Joker in the movie, aptly named, Return of the Joker.
I find it humorous that in a debate about best comic book cartoon adaptation, one of the key points in TMNT's favor is that the original comic version is so obscure that most still don't know of it.
PS: Batman Beyond had Mark Hamill as the Joker in the movie, aptly named, Return of the Joker.
Both of you are wrong in this regard. Ducktales is the best cartoon based on a comic book. It's been in print for 60 years through various comic book companies. BOOM has the right now.
I'll forgive your ignorance for not knowing this comic existed... Just this once.
I'll forgive your ignorance for not knowing this comic existed... Just this once.
Having actually read most of the original run of the TMNT comics, I have to say that the 80's cartoon was a /terrible/ adaptation of the source material. It is to the comics as the 60's Spiderman is to its comics. It's that bad. Not saying it's a bad cartoon (I know I loved it as a kid), but as an adaptation of a comic book, the only thing it has going for it is that it was popular and made Eastman and Laird a lot of money. As Mysnomer explained above, one of the big reasons the TMNT cartoon did as well as it did is because of how obscure the comic is. If it had been better known, it probably would have had a hard time getting adapted in the first place (it was pretty darned violent, at least before the cartoon started. There was a shift in tone after the cartoon and toys took off.), let alone taking off like it did.
I mean, seriously, why didn't you choose something like one of the 90's Marvel cartoons (X-men, Spiderman, Hulk, Iron Man, Fantastic 4...), or that Spawn animated series? Every last one of them was a better adaptation of the source than the TMNT cartoon, and frankly they hold up better as cartoons, too. TMNT was good for an 80's cartoon, and it was the lynchpin of a hugely successful merchandising empire, but let's be honest: those toyetic cartoons weren't exactly Shakespeare. Or even BTAS, for that matter.
Edit: Also, I cannot argue with this post. Ducktales would have won by default.
I mean, seriously, why didn't you choose something like one of the 90's Marvel cartoons (X-men, Spiderman, Hulk, Iron Man, Fantastic 4...), or that Spawn animated series? Every last one of them was a better adaptation of the source than the TMNT cartoon, and frankly they hold up better as cartoons, too. TMNT was good for an 80's cartoon, and it was the lynchpin of a hugely successful merchandising empire, but let's be honest: those toyetic cartoons weren't exactly Shakespeare. Or even BTAS, for that matter.
Edit: Also, I cannot argue with this post. Ducktales would have won by default.
malestrithe said:
Chris perfectly covered my reaction to the episode's reactions. No one said that best meant the overall show quality.
And then he throws out what could be the greatest argument against awards:
You know that Chris Brown just won some Grammys, right? Does that make him better than Dragonforce?
Well of course not, because nothing is better than DragonForce.
And then he throws out what could be the greatest argument against awards:
You know that Chris Brown just won some Grammys, right? Does that make him better than Dragonforce?
Well of course not, because nothing is better than DragonForce.
Technically Batman Beyond is kinda part of TAS, at least that continuity. Alongside whatever that superman cartoon was referred to as, justice league, static shock (though some may wish it weren't). Besides Batman has Killer Croc for a humorous sewer mutant...who throws rocks.
"Honestly, I didn't expect to win this debate unless I did exactly what you're supposed to do in debates: Change the parameters to fit the argument you can best use."
I didn't take debate class, but I don't think this is how it should work.
The issue I have with your previous debate is that you didn't argue under your original premise. The argument eventually went to which brought the comic out of obsurity. Batman was already well known, but the mainstream audience had no idea who the turtles were before the cartoon.
The original premise was which was the best, so rather than argue about artisic integrety, plot, story, characters, the argument came down to what generated the most buzz, and this is why I don't ever watch your bits. The first few I watched drifted so far from the original premise. I read last week that you don't prepare for your debates, and it shows. If you want to really argue the merits of two items you need to do your research. If you get enough hits for your shows based on how you do them now, then more power to you. I am offering a bit of constructive feed back as to why I don't watch. I only watched this one as I liked both cartoons as a kid and was curious to see what points could be brought up, and see if you could come up with any argument as to why TMNT would be artistically better than Batman. There were none and I was a bit disappointed with how it went.
If we debated which taste better, apples or oranges, and I said apples are red, while technically correct, it doesn't mean I score a point on why apples taste better.
I didn't take debate class, but I don't think this is how it should work.
The issue I have with your previous debate is that you didn't argue under your original premise. The argument eventually went to which brought the comic out of obsurity. Batman was already well known, but the mainstream audience had no idea who the turtles were before the cartoon.
The original premise was which was the best, so rather than argue about artisic integrety, plot, story, characters, the argument came down to what generated the most buzz, and this is why I don't ever watch your bits. The first few I watched drifted so far from the original premise. I read last week that you don't prepare for your debates, and it shows. If you want to really argue the merits of two items you need to do your research. If you get enough hits for your shows based on how you do them now, then more power to you. I am offering a bit of constructive feed back as to why I don't watch. I only watched this one as I liked both cartoons as a kid and was curious to see what points could be brought up, and see if you could come up with any argument as to why TMNT would be artistically better than Batman. There were none and I was a bit disappointed with how it went.
If we debated which taste better, apples or oranges, and I said apples are red, while technically correct, it doesn't mean I score a point on why apples taste better.
-snip-Abandon4093 said:
But, Topic for debate:
TNBA was the best batman cartoon, Because of this guy:
TMNT was great when I was a kid. Going back to watch it doesn't do it for me anymore. I just can't get past some of those terrible lines of dialogue. Batman still works pretty damn well overall. But I think I'll have to give it to that newer Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes for best animated comic series. Just because I love every line uttered by Hawkeye or Wasp. And this series also made Hulk a lot more fun too.
Maybe I just didn't read too much into the forum comments, but I don't think people think that Chris is "a. An idiot, b. An asshole, c. Forgetful, or d. All of the above" - that seems a little extreme to me. I think the issues people (or at least myself) had problems with was the choice of TMNT to go against BTAS and how shifting the parameters changed the nature and scoring of the debate.
First, just to make sure I'm not making false assumptions, did Chris have to go with TMNT? Could he have chosen a different cartoon? If he was locked-in to TMNT, then ignore the rest of this argument. If he could have chosen a different cartoon, one based off a manga would have been a better choice. From some of the other debates I get the impression that Chris has a lot of knowledge of anime, so it would have been really easy to make convincing arguments for, say, Akira or Ghost in the Shell SAC (just to name a few). These are cartoons that would have been able to compete with BTAS in terms of quality of writing and animation. Yes this would have shifted the discussion a bit, but it still would have fallen under the topic/resolution (is anyone really going to argue that manga aren't comics?). That would have sucked for Kyle - true or not, can you imagine having to argue that BTAS is better then Akira? Of course, hindsight is always easy.
The other issue was how the parameters shifted. As I mentioned in the other thread, the debate ultimately wasn't about which cartoon was the best (as the video was titled) but which had a greater impact on the franchise. Yes, the arguments presented were well-crafted and insightful - I really liked the Adam West bit, the bit about how the TMNT cartoon is considered the source and not the comic, and how all current Batman stuff is influenced by BTAS - but they were for a different resolution. Personally this one bothers me the most because in the kind of debate I did competitively in high school (CX/Policy), presenting a case outside the parameters was considered cheating and grounds for a loss.
On a final note, as a definite positive, this debate has caused me to go back and rewatch a lot of episodes of Justice League, and I'm having a blast.
First, just to make sure I'm not making false assumptions, did Chris have to go with TMNT? Could he have chosen a different cartoon? If he was locked-in to TMNT, then ignore the rest of this argument. If he could have chosen a different cartoon, one based off a manga would have been a better choice. From some of the other debates I get the impression that Chris has a lot of knowledge of anime, so it would have been really easy to make convincing arguments for, say, Akira or Ghost in the Shell SAC (just to name a few). These are cartoons that would have been able to compete with BTAS in terms of quality of writing and animation. Yes this would have shifted the discussion a bit, but it still would have fallen under the topic/resolution (is anyone really going to argue that manga aren't comics?). That would have sucked for Kyle - true or not, can you imagine having to argue that BTAS is better then Akira? Of course, hindsight is always easy.
The other issue was how the parameters shifted. As I mentioned in the other thread, the debate ultimately wasn't about which cartoon was the best (as the video was titled) but which had a greater impact on the franchise. Yes, the arguments presented were well-crafted and insightful - I really liked the Adam West bit, the bit about how the TMNT cartoon is considered the source and not the comic, and how all current Batman stuff is influenced by BTAS - but they were for a different resolution. Personally this one bothers me the most because in the kind of debate I did competitively in high school (CX/Policy), presenting a case outside the parameters was considered cheating and grounds for a loss.
On a final note, as a definite positive, this debate has caused me to go back and rewatch a lot of episodes of Justice League, and I'm having a blast.
Hey, I'm not as old as you guys, I barely remember watching them in the "Goold old days", but I reacquainted myself with the cartoons, and Mark hamill, whilst being amazing in every way, is not the reason I like the joker and harley episodes.Abandon4093 said:I dunno... does he have 4 knees?SpectacularWebHead said:-snip-Abandon4093 said:
But, Topic for debate:
TNBA was the best batman cartoon, Because of this guy:
XD
Yea, Nightwing was cool. But I always had a thing for the Joker episodes. I think mainly because of Harley truth be told.... and Mark Hamil.
No, I liked them because of....This:
[youtube]v=0waJ2zHkqow[/youtube]
EDIT
That crashed and burned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0waJ2zHkqow Do it like this.
Whats so wrong about a grown woman covered head to toe in cream on a kids tv show?Abandon4093 said:LOL at the youtube comments.SpectacularWebHead said:Hey, I'm not as old as you guys, I barely remember watching them in the "Goold old days", but I reacquainted myself with the cartoons, and Mark hamill, whilst being amazing in every way, is not the reason I like the joker and harley episodes.Abandon4093 said:I dunno... does he have 4 knees?SpectacularWebHead said:-snip-Abandon4093 said:
But, Topic for debate:
TNBA was the best batman cartoon, Because of this guy:
XD
Yea, Nightwing was cool. But I always had a thing for the Joker episodes. I think mainly because of Harley truth be told.... and Mark Hamil.
No, I liked them because of....This:
bluereaper75 said:
Oh,
yeah.
That.