Yeah, whoever is making demands, that's the asshole. If the dev wants to make a game without any sex appeal, that's perfectly fine too. You won't see quite as many topics about games being too modest. People only complain if games are turned modest when originally they aren't so in localization or re-release or some such as a form of censorship.
Oh, those gosh darn special snowflakes at it again, eh?
Hey, remember when a special snowflake got very upset that Dreamfall Chapters didn't conform to his every whim? [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.932308-Dreamfall-Chapters-sucks-and-Ill-tell-you-why]
Of course, it depends on the criticism, doesn't it? If it's criticism we agree with, like "I don't like the controls" or "One of the characters is a misogynistic dude" or "I got offended by the story including prison camps" then it's a totally legit criticism. If it's a criticism we don't like, such as "the women are all wearing stupid armour" or "so many damsels" then it's snowflakes imposing conformity.
Funny how that works, eh? Seems like bollocks to me, but I guess that's how it's done.
I'm just eternally delighted by the... let's call it "inconsistency" of someone who derides the perpetually offended special snowflakes and yet lost no time in throwing an angry rant about the time a game offended him.
Ah, this discussion again. Everyone griping over the existence of the chainmail bikini in media, but rather than demanding male characters get EQUALLY skimpy armor, they want the removal of the bikini.
They already have. It doesn't suit them too well...
In a more serious note, I'm not surprised that the conversation derailed from describing the changes from each one perspective, to going back and forth on why this and that are stupid or justified. But the dogpiling still saddens me.
What about you? Have you noticed any noticeable changes on female character representation on the games you have played this past two years? Or it's still the same?
Well to actually be on topic, not really, but then I actually don't pay much attention to that sort of thing unless the devs are drawing attention to it, in which case I tend to avoid it. Not because "HOW DAREZ DEY PUT WOMAN IN MY MAN GAMES!?" but mostly because of pattern recognition. When a dev draws attention to things like that, they're usually using it as a type of criticism shield, and the resulting product is probably gonna be lackluster at best.
Ah, this discussion again. Everyone griping over the existence of the chainmail bikini in media, but rather than demanding male characters get EQUALLY skimpy armor, they want the removal of the bikini.
And people wonder why I think they have some severe hang ups.
And the realism argument is back too! You know, if it's REALLY realism you want
Ok, how about we replace "realistic armor" with "Armor that was designed to act as armor and not as wanking material." Fair compromise no?
And look, there are games where the wanking material works, but the over reliance on it is just stupid. And when games try to pull drama off when they're using that armor, oh god, it's such a tonal clusterfuck. Fire Emblem Fates is trying to have a hard family drama about a royal family torn apart. With the MC daughter that has an exposed crotch and ass crack and her big sister that has tits the size of her head and a very phallic leather strap between them. THIS IS A SAD MOMENT!
I mean...really!? Is she SUPPOSED to look like she's constantly giving a tit job?
Your comment about demanding men wear sexy outfits is really just suggesting the other side of the extreme spectrum. While yeah, there should be more sexualized men (preferably without being exposed to unsexy fying edits that women don't get exposed to.)
but I feel like gaming as a medium over relies on sexualized design. I mean seriously, the number of muscular or plus sized women you see in gaming (that aren't flat evil characters created by lazy writers who make their bad guys ugly and their good guys beautiful) is way too scarce for my liking. And there are some settings where it just, doesn't, work. I mean seriously, have you played This War of Mine? It'd be utterly moronic with sexualized characters, of either gender.
Not saying sexualized characters have no place or that there shouldn't be more guy ones, I just feel like we need to expand our horizons. I can't remember the last time I saw a game with a female PC where she was either muscular or plus sized.
Fire Emblem? That's you're go to example for your argument? That's kind of a bad idea Er, if only because this is a series filled to bursting with goofy looking characters. Ryoma looks like he stepped out of a Kabuki play for goodness sake. ERPGs are kind of synonymous for outlandish designs that would suck the drama out of the scene in any other game.
Also, yeah she kind of IS supposed to look like that if only because I'm pretty certain that's her weapon harness there, and seeing how she's a melee fighter with a focus on big honking axes there's not really a lot of ways for her to ware that thing comfortably.
Not to mention the outfit does it's job from a character design perspective. Good costume design should tell you what the character is all about. Camilla is one of the seductive character archetypes, and her costume pretty much tells you that right from the word go. (You'll note that the only other character who's as sexily designed as Camilla is Charlotte, who is also a seductress character type.)
Also, just for reference, the main reason male characters tend to be all buff and muscular and not female characters? Traditional design mostly. You look through all of the great stories and myths and 9/10 times the male heroes are going to be big burly dudes. Tropes even has a name for it. Heroic Build. It's only been relatively recently that we've started having female characters as notable heroes, and the idea of big and burly being a masculine trait is still fresh in the cultural zeitgeist.
Basically, big burly ladies would look odd to a lot of people.
As for the plus size, that's just not gonna happen. Putting aside the fact that generally no one really likes looking a overweight people to begin with, the heroic fatties in fiction tend to be relegated to comic relief. Honestly, I don't mind that. It's not healthy to be overweight, no matter what the Fat Acceptance Movement tells you.
Is it? Is it really? Because it really only seems to be that Awakening and post-Awakening. I'm playing through Echoes right now, and I'm not seeing any stupidly sexualized armor. It's stylized armor, but it actually looks like it could protect you. I feel like if I were to punch anyone wearing armor, I would break my hand. If I were to punch Camilia, I'd be a registered sex offender. And even post Awakening, Ryoma's armor is overdone, yes, but it actually looks like armor. It looks like it would protect him. And even then it doesn't stop the tragic scenes with characters in sexy armor from being a tonal clusterfuck. A scene does not go well if I sit there wondering "am I supposed to be upset or jerking it?" And there are ways to show skin without it being sexualized, but since Fire Emblem has the exact same sprite for all its characters, minus variations in facial expressions, it isn't very good at it. Also, there are plenty of JRPGs that managed to have armor design without relying on sexualized design. Dark Souls comes to mind.
Which would be an understandable explanation if weapon holsters were a thing in Fates. But they don't seem to be.
Uh, seductive? If I was supposed to think Camilia was seductive then the game didn't really do a good job of telling me that. I got more the impression that she was an overbearing smotherer who treated 90% of people as either children or threats that had to be viciously murdered. I'm struggling to think of any examples of her being seductive, or that being a core part of her character. Charlotte, I'll give you that, that actually is a part of her character that I get, and the game doesn't try and have any of the game's deeply tragic moments center around her, so it works. But F!Corrin? Naive do gooder who's lived in isolation her whole life? What about that character screams having easy access to her rear and womanhood?
TBH that just sounds like a lack of creativity to me. And even then that doesn't really address the problem I have with this tone wise. I mean I go through all the famous scenes I've ever seen of someone morning the death of a loved one, like what happens later on in Fates, and I can think of zero that would be improved by the character wearing a sexualized outfit. Regardless of gender.
If it's all about whether or not a character is appealing to look at, then why the fuck does no one have a problem with this guy?
It's not healthy to be overweight? It's not healthy to be paralyzed from the waist down, yet that hasn't stopped a couple of main characters in fiction having that condition (the surge, and the upcoming Wolfenstein come to mind.) Hell, the protagonist of Firewatch was an overweight guy and TF2's heavy's weight is rarely refereed to in a flattering manner. And none of the characters I mentioned were particularly humorous. Where does it say that main characters have to be paragons of human health? Can't they be, you know, humans? With human flaws?
It's not healthy to be overweight? It's not healthy to be paralyzed from the waist down, yet that hasn't stopped a couple of main characters in fiction having that condition (the surge, and the upcoming Wolfenstein come to mind.) Hell, the protagonist of Firewatch was an overweight guy and TF2's heavy's weight is rarely refereed to in a flattering manner. And none of the characters I mentioned were particularly humorous. Where does it say that main characters have to be paragons of human health? Can't they be, you know, humans? With human flaws?
That doesn't change the fact that humans are pretty flawed beings and that we do ourselves a disservice by limiting what qualities we can see in a character.
First of all, I wouldn't put senran kagura in the same vein as criminal girls. SK is basically all about the most ridiculous fanservice you can imagine while CG is just a regular, good Jrpg with an innovative take on turn based combad and a storyline similar to games like persona, with an attached minigame (like a barnacle on a ship) that has bdsm overtones. In one game sex appeal is basically the entire game, in the other it's more of a distraction and 95% of the time you're playing a regular Jrpg with typical Jrpg elements that are not at all related to sex.
Yeah, I was just using those two as an example of games where the sexualized designs seem to fit with the theme of the rest of the game.
Secondly, I would say that your issue is more a problem with the common sense you use to determine your expectations of games than anything else. Clearly, reality refutes it, so you'd better adjust what you consider "a game where these elements may appear in" to include these games too.
I really don't have a problem with the element of sexuality being included in a video game, nor do I have a problem with attractive characters. I do, however, respect games as a medium enough to reserve the right to complain if the character's design does not gel with the rest of the game or the themes it presents. Or if a moment in the story feels so jarring that it impacts how I perceive everything that came before or after.
Lets try another medium here, imagine if Downton Abbey had Lord Grantham walking around with the indentation of a massive boner visible through his pants all the time. Or if Schindler's List ended with Oscar Schindler and Itzhak Stern giving Hitler an atomic wedgie. Nobody would say anything about the sanctity of a creator's vision in those situations or tell you to "take it easy, it's just entertainment."
It's not healthy to be overweight? It's not healthy to be paralyzed from the waist down, yet that hasn't stopped a couple of main characters in fiction having that condition (the surge, and the upcoming Wolfenstein come to mind.) Hell, the protagonist of Firewatch was an overweight guy and TF2's heavy's weight is rarely refereed to in a flattering manner. And none of the characters I mentioned were particularly humorous. Where does it say that main characters have to be paragons of human health? Can't they be, you know, humans? With human flaws?
Sorry to snip through most of that, but most of that could be summed up as either differing tastes or things that could lead to another one of our little tiffs.
As for Roadhog though, you'll note that Roadhog is one of the VILLAINS in the game. He's a merc employed by Talon. It's even reflected in his special moves. Most Tank characters are about protecting their allies and preventing them from getting hurt, but Roadhog's more about survivability for himself. Closest thing he has to a team helping move would be his chain, and that's more for drawing someone into his VERY limited range.
Basically, no one has a problem with him because he fits the standard of the Fat Bastard trope. He's not a role model, and was never intended to be.
And you're comparing being paralyzed to being fat? Er, you can deal with weight by taking a brisk walk or getting some frigging sit ups in and not scarfing down greaseball foods and candy every hour on the hour. You can't really help being handicapped like that. That's...honestly one of the more offensive comparisons I've ever seen a person seriously try to make.
Also, Heavy from TF2 isn't humorous? Have you ever played the game before? EVERYTHING is comedy in that game. Otherwise you'd have a depressingly bleak game. Dunno about Firewatch beyond it being a FP game, so if your character was overweight it's not really noticeable.
Where does it say characters have to be paragons of human health? Nowhere really, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd WANT to play a game where the greatest obsticals are a flight of stairs. (Unless you went for something awesome like rocket wheelchairs or cyborg limbs.) People playing games generally want to do something they CAN'T do in real life like fly a jet pack or overthrow a Nazi-esque empire. That's why Mario, who is by all accounts an everyman, spends most of his games jumping like an NBA Superstar and shooting fireballs rather than plumbing.
Yes, having flaws is a great thing for fiction and the like, but being fat is an amazingly lackluster flaw that could be dealt with rather easily. It's basically a step above the female lead in a Romance movie being "clumsy".
Not to mention, a person can be a percect physical specimen and still be a broken shell of a human being in other ways. (See:Batman. Completley unable to move past his parent's murder after all these years.)
And the realism argument is back too! You know, if it's REALLY realism you want, you'd be arguing for the removal of female warriors entirely right? I mean, yeah you've got the good Miss of Arc and Tomoe Gozen, but by and large women were away from the fighting unless it got to the villages.
Joan of Arc did not actually fight ever as far as we know.
But in every mayor military conflict in human history you will find fignting women. When society did not actually allow it, they used false idendities, but more than enough were discovered (usually posthumous) to be pretty certain about it. And a surprising number of pretty old and patriarchal societies did actually allow female figthers who were openly women. You will find them in reliefs for Persian soldiers, you will find them in chinese campaign accounts about the tribes they fought. Even in medieval Christian societies you can find at least one female-only knight order in Spain and even the prestigious Maltese knights did on occasion accept female knights (granted that was at a time where they rarely actually fought).
Fighting womens were usually rare. And the number of cultures i know of where it was expected for the average woman to fight in the wars i can count on one hand. But not that rare. Yes, there are overrepresented in video games because they are appealing, but to claim realism would demand not including them is strictly wrong.
erttheking said:
Ok, how about we replace "realistic armor" with "Armor that was designed to act as armor and not as wanking material." Fair compromise no?
I find oversized/ridiculously heavy armor at least as bad as sexuaized armor. Realistic means realistis. If i would make it in the real world it should be reasonable comfortable to wear and protect roughly equally to other things the same pricee, tech level and movement restriction.
And yes, i am already often annoyed at the anachronisms in video game armor. Pseudo-fantasy with plate armor without weopons that were actually used together with said plate armor. Linothorax, Khopesh, Morion, Bidenh?nder in the same game.
Also, i know the arguments against breasted breast plates. But i don't actually agree with them. Yes, it is not the ideal form to deflect blows. Doesn't matter. Plate armor was perfected in the 15th and 16th century in Europe, not sooner. But plate elements as part of armor can be found millenia earlier. Putting one of them in front on the breast was always immensely popular because you can ignore all those nasty joints. And decorative designs in (expensive real metal) armor is more often present than missing. So overall, no, a boob plate is not even that unrealistic if not part of a white armor or something more advanded. If you have a culture using muscle cuisasses and a fighter who is also openly female and pretty rich, a boob plate is utterly realistic.That does not mean i want everything to be full of boob plates. They should be rarer than female fighters.
@ Topic
Changes in the last 2 years :
I noticed hardly any changes at all.
The only thing i did notice is that games where player characters can be choosen or customized, it is now more likely to have a chubby female option than before. Earlier when people bothered to include different female models at all, it was mostly muscular, normal or small/thin.
First of all, so what? Does him being a bad guy change that he's a playable fat guy that people don't seem to have a problem with? Which is kind of a moot point because of my second argument...no...he isn't employed by Talon. At all. Like, where did you get that idea? On the morality spectrum that runs through Overwatch, Roadhog and Junkrat land firmly on Chaotic Neutral. All the conflicts going on in Overwatch, Talon, the Second Omnic Crisis, the Vishkar Corporation, Junkrat and Roaghog really don't give a shit about any of it. They just do whatever the heck they feel like, which is mainly blowing stuff up. Hell, in their comic, they try to go legit when given a potential job where they can legally blow stuff up and get paid for it, something that more or less caused Junkrat to start salivating. The only reason it didn't fall through was that the guy who hired them was stabbing them in the back and using them in an insurance scheme.
So what you're saying is that people would've hated him if he was a good guy? That seems like a rather baseless argument to make. "It sure is fun playing as Roadhog, but I would've hated him if he wasn't evil," isn't a mindset I've seen many people express. Not that they're really evil in the first place, but moving on.
I'm pointing out that the "it's not healthy" argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. There are plenty of conditions that aren't considered "healthy" but so freaking what? Why not have a character that's unhealthy? We've got a whole wide array of possibilities that is the human condition, why ignore it? Also, I'd rather not talk about being offensive when you then talk to a guy who has a gut he's trying to lose and imply that my lack of success because "I'm scarfing down greaseball foods and candy every hour on the hour." Let's not fucking go there, ok?
He's not comic relief, which is a different thing altogether. Comic relief is a goofy SIDE character. Heavy has an identity outside of being funny (thank Christ.)
It was kind of an implication you raised when you said that being overweight was unhealthy. Ok, you need to back the fuck up, because you are honest to God starting to piss me off. You seem to be confusing "overweight" with "morbidly obese." I'm technically overweight and yet this doesn't manifest as anything more than a bit of a bulge in my stomach. I can manage stairs just fine thank you very FUCKING much. I don't get why you seem to be implying that I'm advocating for a game where you climb stairs and then spend a minute catching your breath. And you brought up Mario, and I'm glad you did. Have you ever looked at Mario?
Guy looks pretty fucking portly, pretty noticeable gut there. Because it turns out you can have overweight characters, have them still be pretty physically active and no one will care. Turns out, shock of all shocks, you can still have a lot of body fat and still be physically active, even in shape. It's common in a lot of football players. So maybe consider that before you equate overweight with "man who can't climb stairs and apparently constantly sucks down candy" because apparently that's all I do with my life, thanks for the FUCKING news flash.
Oh, and Batman being really good but sad on the inside. It's been done.
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