Your opinion: How much has female characters in games changed (or not changed) in the past 2 years?

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

First of all, I wouldn't put senran kagura in the same vein as criminal girls. SK is basically all about the most ridiculous fanservice you can imagine while CG is just a regular, good Jrpg with an innovative take on turn based combad and a storyline similar to games like persona, with an attached minigame (like a barnacle on a ship) that has bdsm overtones. In one game sex appeal is basically the entire game, in the other it's more of a distraction and 95% of the time you're playing a regular Jrpg with typical Jrpg elements that are not at all related to sex.

Yeah, I was just using those two as an example of games where the sexualized designs seem to fit with the theme of the rest of the game.

Secondly, I would say that your issue is more a problem with the common sense you use to determine your expectations of games than anything else. Clearly, reality refutes it, so you'd better adjust what you consider "a game where these elements may appear in" to include these games too.

I really don't have a problem with the element of sexuality being included in a video game, nor do I have a problem with attractive characters. I do, however, respect games as a medium enough to reserve the right to complain if the character's design does not gel with the rest of the game or the themes it presents. Or if a moment in the story feels so jarring that it impacts how I perceive everything that came before or after.

Lets try another medium here, imagine if Downton Abbey had Lord Grantham walking around with the indentation of a massive boner visible through his pants all the time. Or if Schindler's List ended with Oscar Schindler and Itzhak Stern giving Hitler an atomic wedgie. Nobody would say anything about the sanctity of a creator's vision in those situations or tell you to "take it easy, it's just entertainment."

Ok so, I generally agree with the thrust of your point, but I have to take issue with your I guess initial definition of it. Illogical breaks in tone are a perfectly fine thing to complain about. The issue isn't sex or females being in sexy armor or whatever, the issue is the weird, ill-fitting change in tone. That can happen through a myriad ways, that it just so happened to be through sex appeal in a couple examples does not make this an issue with how females are represented in gaming. It's just a tone issue, a general, broad issue that those games have which just so happened to manifest in that fashion. To focus on how specifically the game failed in that one instance in the context of this topic is to misuse your valid concern and use it to support a different topic that is completely irrelevant to the topic of tonal shifts.


There's a million jarring things that stand out like a sore thumb within various games. Neither one example is in itself an issue, rather, the issue is one of lack of cohesive design. We don't fix that by addressing specifically any one instance of it but rather through focusing more on keeping track of everything in a game and having it all make sense.

 

[happyninja42]

I don't know if it's increased, but I do think they are getting more advertisement. The gaming community definitely puts more emphasis on it, which is fine, people want what they want. If I had to guess, I'd say the amount of game titles with female characters has probably had a slight increase, but it's been a more visible feature going forward.

As for how they've changed, I would say they are becoming more normalized, as they take the lead role. Regular people, doing regular stuff. Fewer examples of ones like Bayonetta (nothing wrong with her, for those who like her, but she is definitely fetishized), and more of the "30 year old, grizzled white guy with stubble" kind of representation. Just regular women, nothing really unique about them at all. Which I think is great. Being able to just have a female character, and it not be a big deal at all, she's just there, like everyone else, is the kind of stuff I like.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not healthy to be overweight? It's not healthy to be paralyzed from the waist down, yet that hasn't stopped a couple of main characters in fiction having that condition (the surge, and the upcoming Wolfenstein come to mind.) Hell, the protagonist of Firewatch was an overweight guy and TF2's heavy's weight is rarely refereed to in a flattering manner. And none of the characters I mentioned were particularly humorous. Where does it say that main characters have to be paragons of human health? Can't they be, you know, humans? With human flaws?

To be fair, being Overweight is something you do to yourself and can be fixed, being paralyzed from the waist down is not (most of the times).

That doesn't change the fact that humans are pretty flawed beings and that we do ourselves a disservice by limiting what qualities we can see in a character.

Like everything it depends on the story. A fat character (which I mean have more than a dad belly) can definitely be in drama or quest games but is just plainly weird in action games where they'd either be very quickly out of breath or lose weight fast considering their life style. In action games (when they actually have a story) the flaw should be more mental than being overweight (which to be honest is not actually an interesting flaw).

Like I pointed out to Metalix, Mario, easily one of the most iconic gaming characters ever, is pretty damn portly. The same character that can pull off double mid air somersaults and I've yet to see one person complain about it. Gamers seem to have a pretty good suspension of disbelief.

 

[happyninja42]

Like I pointed out to Metalix, Mario, easily one of the most iconic gaming characters ever, is pretty damn portly. The same character that can pull off double mid air somersaults and I've yet to see one person complain about it. Gamers seem to have a pretty good suspension of disbelief.

That disbelief is very selective sometimes. They will be ok with say, a plumber from New Jersey, traveling to a magical land, where he can eat random plants and grow a tail and fly, or shoot fireballs from his mouth, but they will say that his nose is disproportionate to the rest of him, and he's clearly suffering from some kind of bulbous nose disease.

This is a random fictional example, but you know the kind of thing I'm talking about. Like say, complaining how in Star Wars, they complain that you can't do a transmission in hyperspace, and that's unrealistic....in a world with space wizards and laser swords.

 

[jademunky]

I like some games with less racy aesthetics. I also like fanservice sometimes, too. Does your dislike of it mean I shouldn't get to experience that in AAA games anymore? Some of us like having some of those depictions and our character shouldn't come into question for liking them any more than yours should for not. We can have issues over whether we feel the preferences of others displacing things we like is cause to gripe or dislike those preferences being catered to reducing the enjoyment we receive. I would prefer if some games had the fanservice for one or both genders and others were more puritan so we could all be happy instead of people complaining everytime a AAA hints at fanservice thus ruining it for those of us that wanted those depictions.

TLDR: A desire for fanservice or games with boob armor or skimpy costumes is no better or worse than not desiring those things.

Late reply,

Yeah but you tend to notice a pattern over the years where male characters have come in any shape, size and level of gruesomeness where female characters tend toward slender and attractive with varying levels of boobage. Or sometimes her fatness is played for laughs.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

It's not healthy to be overweight? It's not healthy to be paralyzed from the waist down, yet that hasn't stopped a couple of main characters in fiction having that condition (the surge, and the upcoming Wolfenstein come to mind.) Hell, the protagonist of Firewatch was an overweight guy and TF2's heavy's weight is rarely refereed to in a flattering manner. And none of the characters I mentioned were particularly humorous. Where does it say that main characters have to be paragons of human health? Can't they be, you know, humans? With human flaws?

To be fair, being Overweight is something you do to yourself and can be fixed, being paralyzed from the waist down is not (most of the times).

That doesn't change the fact that humans are pretty flawed beings and that we do ourselves a disservice by limiting what qualities we can see in a character.

Like everything it depends on the story. A fat character (which I mean have more than a dad belly) can definitely be in drama or quest games but is just plainly weird in action games where they'd either be very quickly out of breath or lose weight fast considering their life style. In action games (when they actually have a story) the flaw should be more mental than being overweight (which to be honest is not actually an interesting flaw).

Like I pointed out to Metalix, Mario, easily one of the most iconic gaming characters ever, is pretty damn portly. The same character that can pull off double mid air somersaults and I've yet to see one person complain about it. Gamers seem to have a pretty good suspension of disbelief.

Like I pointed out to Metalix, Mario, easily one of the most iconic gaming characters ever, is pretty damn portly. The same character that can pull off double mid air somersaults and I've yet to see one person complain about it. Gamers seem to have a pretty good suspension of disbelief.

That disbelief is very selective sometimes. They will be ok with say, a plumber from New Jersey, traveling to a magical land, where he can eat random plants and grow a tail and fly, or shoot fireballs from his mouth, but they will say that his nose is disproportionate to the rest of him, and he's clearly suffering from some kind of bulbous nose disease.

This is a random fictional example, but you know the kind of thing I'm talking about. Like say, complaining how in Star Wars, they complain that you can't do a transmission in hyperspace, and that's unrealistic....in a world with space wizards and laser swords.

Mario is also in a world where mushrooms can make you grow, flowers can make you shoot fire, and giant turtles kidnap a princess of a kingdom of fungus people on a regular basis. The idea of a fat guy jumping like an NBA All Star in that particular world isn't particularly odd.

The suspension of disbelief only works depending on the universe the game is set in, and the rules that universe plays by. If you put Mario in a Call of Duty set in WW2, he WOULD break that suspension pretty badly.

Basically, the only place a tubby hero would actually WORK is in the cartoony settings. Possibly a Wizards and Warriors one as well if teleportation spells are an easily learned spell.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Biology-14-WCB-General/dp/1259245748/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1498613071&sr=1-1

That's a textbook. I'm not going to spend 100 bucks on it just to have an argument with some dude I'll never meet in real life. However, if you could source a quote or two from it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/10/marine-experiment-finds-women-get-injured-more-frequently-shoot-less-accurately-than-men/

Actually reading that article, there are several criticisms about the research. For one, they were asked to assess individuals in their capability, but instead focused on averages using out-dated methods and data. The fact that the methodology was kept opaque is a red flag as well. Is there a place where this was published open to the public so I could dig a little deeper?

[quote0023]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF5103

This study is about the differences in muscle fiber characteristics between the sexes, which is something I never actually disputed. Rather my contention is that there is a lot more that goes into athleticism than brute strength, and that's not the only type of strength you can train for either.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/71/2/644.long

This study focused specifically on the link between muscular strength and age, focusing on the elbow and knee extensors and flexors. Useful data certainly. But ask any performing strong man if the only muscles he uses to lift human being are the extensors and flexors in his load-bearing joints and he'll just give you a funny look.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/see-the-skeletal-differences-between-women-and-men
https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1

Men and women have different bone structures. Again, something I never disputed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

This one I'm not entirely certain why you linked to as it's not about the point you're trying to prove, rather just narrowing down the origins of a common variety of sports injury. Could you clear this one up for me? What were you going for here?

So, your point of contention was that human sexual dimorphism doesn't exist, but, now you're admitting that it does?

What on earth are you talking about?

If you must insist on information being spoonfed to you.

The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00235103

Women have 52%~ Less upper body strength and 66%~ Lower body strength.

This is cited from sources such as:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/67/1/24
A comparison between male and female bodybuilders.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02701367.1986.10762192


https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

These are are about the increased rate of injury for women, particularly around the knee joints. Breaking your knee in the medieval age was typically not a good idea.

"Female athletes who participate in jumping and pivoting sports are 2 to 10 times more likely to sustain a knee ligament injury."


https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/09/10/US-Marines-study-Women-in-combat-injured-more-often-than-men/6121441908304/
https://www.scribd.com/doc/280017557/Marine-Corps-gender-integration-research-executive-summary
This stuff is related to the Washington Post article. Seems fairly accurate to me. But, I've no doubt people will look for holes.


But, I have to ask.

What as convinced you that women are as physically able as men, despite knowing they have smaller bodies, less upper and lower body strength and so on? Do you have any sources on this belief? Are there are athletic sports where women perform better than men? Do these sports have any crossover to physical combat?

Except for those societies where that was a done thing, right?

It astounds me how many dudes think that shitty stereotypes and fictional movie/games are accurate history textbooks.

The amount of "Societies" where women fought in plate Armour can probably be counted on one hand.

It's pretty basic biology that you don't make women fight.

Then again, the number of societies that all fought with encompassing skins of bronze or iron protecting them can be counted on no hands.

Yes, both things should really stay in the realms of fantasy, don't you think?[/quote]
Germanic and scythian noblewomen could serve in the army, there are records of a few female samurai, viking shieldmaidens, and spartan women were trained to be the citys last line of defense. The sweedish military has had female members since 1924, the russian since WW2.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

HM 2 was such a femininazi piece of SJW propaganda, if you hold it to GamerGate standards. Fat acceptance is just one aspect. Two of The Fans being female doubled down on it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

HM 2 was such a femininazi piece of SJW propaganda, if you hold it to GamerGate standards. Fat acceptance is just one aspect. Two of The Fans being female doubled down on it.

Right, you could skip that acted out rape scene that the developers said were vital to those characters. And it really wasn't.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Right, you could skip that acted out rape scene that the developers said were vital to those characters. And it really wasn't.

Ehh, considering what happened to Martin later on, it wasn't entirely useless either in showing how FUBAR his mental health was.

But yea, by all the criteria that Reaxxion gave for what constiutes an "SJW" game, Hotline Miami 1 and 2 actually fit.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Biology-14-WCB-General/dp/1259245748/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1498613071&sr=1-1

That's a textbook. I'm not going to spend 100 bucks on it just to have an argument with some dude I'll never meet in real life. However, if you could source a quote or two from it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/10/marine-experiment-finds-women-get-injured-more-frequently-shoot-less-accurately-than-men/

Actually reading that article, there are several criticisms about the research. For one, they were asked to assess individuals in their capability, but instead focused on averages using out-dated methods and data. The fact that the methodology was kept opaque is a red flag as well. Is there a place where this was published open to the public so I could dig a little deeper?

[quote0023]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF5103

This study is about the differences in muscle fiber characteristics between the sexes, which is something I never actually disputed. Rather my contention is that there is a lot more that goes into athleticism than brute strength, and that's not the only type of strength you can train for either.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/71/2/644.long

This study focused specifically on the link between muscular strength and age, focusing on the elbow and knee extensors and flexors. Useful data certainly. But ask any performing strong man if the only muscles he uses to lift human being are the extensors and flexors in his load-bearing joints and he'll just give you a funny look.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/see-the-skeletal-differences-between-women-and-men
https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1

Men and women have different bone structures. Again, something I never disputed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

This one I'm not entirely certain why you linked to as it's not about the point you're trying to prove, rather just narrowing down the origins of a common variety of sports injury. Could you clear this one up for me? What were you going for here?

So, your point of contention was that human sexual dimorphism doesn't exist, but, now you're admitting that it does?

What on earth are you talking about?

If you must insist on information being spoonfed to you.

The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00235103

Women have 52%~ Less upper body strength and 66%~ Lower body strength.

This is cited from sources such as:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/67/1/24
A comparison between male and female bodybuilders.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02701367.1986.10762192


https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

These are are about the increased rate of injury for women, particularly around the knee joints. Breaking your knee in the medieval age was typically not a good idea.

"Female athletes who participate in jumping and pivoting sports are 2 to 10 times more likely to sustain a knee ligament injury."


https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/09/10/US-Marines-study-Women-in-combat-injured-more-often-than-men/6121441908304/
https://www.scribd.com/doc/280017557/Marine-Corps-gender-integration-research-executive-summary
This stuff is related to the Washington Post article. Seems fairly accurate to me. But, I've no doubt people will look for holes.


But, I have to ask.

What as convinced you that women are as physically able as men, despite knowing they have smaller bodies, less upper and lower body strength and so on? Do you have any sources on this belief? Are there are athletic sports where women perform better than men? Do these sports have any crossover to physical combat?

Except for those societies where that was a done thing, right?

It astounds me how many dudes think that shitty stereotypes and fictional movie/games are accurate history textbooks.

The amount of "Societies" where women fought in plate Armour can probably be counted on one hand.

It's pretty basic biology that you don't make women fight.

Then again, the number of societies that all fought with encompassing skins of bronze or iron protecting them can be counted on no hands.

Yes, both things should really stay in the realms of fantasy, don't you think?

Germanic and scythian noblewomen could serve in the army, there are records of a few female samurai, viking shieldmaidens, and spartan women were trained to be the citys last line of defense. The sweedish military has had female members since 1924, the russian since WW2.[/quote]

Minor quibble, Shield maidens were expected to hang up the gear after they married. (Hence the name shield MAIDEN), and the rest of those were either the odd outliers, only to be used in a worst case scenario, or relatively modern happenings.

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

You'll also note that the playable characters in Hotline are also a pack of horrible psychopaths. Not to mention there is a big difference between Stout Strength and being fat. (And even then, it still carries it's health problems. Power lifters are the definition of the trope, and they tend to be prone to all kinds of problems.)

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

HM 2 was such a femininazi piece of SJW propaganda, if you hold it to GamerGate standards. Fat acceptance is just one aspect. Two of The Fans being female doubled down on it.

Right, you could skip that acted out rape scene that the developers said were vital to those characters. And it really wasn't.

You mean the scene that establishes what one of the characters does for work, and helps establish what people tend to think Jacket was like, and starts the player character on his path to madness?

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Biology-14-WCB-General/dp/1259245748/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1498613071&sr=1-1

That's a textbook. I'm not going to spend 100 bucks on it just to have an argument with some dude I'll never meet in real life. However, if you could source a quote or two from it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/10/marine-experiment-finds-women-get-injured-more-frequently-shoot-less-accurately-than-men/

Actually reading that article, there are several criticisms about the research. For one, they were asked to assess individuals in their capability, but instead focused on averages using out-dated methods and data. The fact that the methodology was kept opaque is a red flag as well. Is there a place where this was published open to the public so I could dig a little deeper?

[quote0023]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF5103

This study is about the differences in muscle fiber characteristics between the sexes, which is something I never actually disputed. Rather my contention is that there is a lot more that goes into athleticism than brute strength, and that's not the only type of strength you can train for either.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/71/2/644.long

This study focused specifically on the link between muscular strength and age, focusing on the elbow and knee extensors and flexors. Useful data certainly. But ask any performing strong man if the only muscles he uses to lift human being are the extensors and flexors in his load-bearing joints and he'll just give you a funny look.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/see-the-skeletal-differences-between-women-and-men
https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1

Men and women have different bone structures. Again, something I never disputed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

This one I'm not entirely certain why you linked to as it's not about the point you're trying to prove, rather just narrowing down the origins of a common variety of sports injury. Could you clear this one up for me? What were you going for here?

So, your point of contention was that human sexual dimorphism doesn't exist, but, now you're admitting that it does?

What on earth are you talking about?

If you must insist on information being spoonfed to you.

The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00235103

Women have 52%~ Less upper body strength and 66%~ Lower body strength.

This is cited from sources such as:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/67/1/24
A comparison between male and female bodybuilders.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02701367.1986.10762192


https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

These are are about the increased rate of injury for women, particularly around the knee joints. Breaking your knee in the medieval age was typically not a good idea.

"Female athletes who participate in jumping and pivoting sports are 2 to 10 times more likely to sustain a knee ligament injury."


https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/09/10/US-Marines-study-Women-in-combat-injured-more-often-than-men/6121441908304/
https://www.scribd.com/doc/280017557/Marine-Corps-gender-integration-research-executive-summary
This stuff is related to the Washington Post article. Seems fairly accurate to me. But, I've no doubt people will look for holes.


But, I have to ask.

What as convinced you that women are as physically able as men, despite knowing they have smaller bodies, less upper and lower body strength and so on? Do you have any sources on this belief? Are there are athletic sports where women perform better than men? Do these sports have any crossover to physical combat?

Except for those societies where that was a done thing, right?

It astounds me how many dudes think that shitty stereotypes and fictional movie/games are accurate history textbooks.

The amount of "Societies" where women fought in plate Armour can probably be counted on one hand.

It's pretty basic biology that you don't make women fight.

Then again, the number of societies that all fought with encompassing skins of bronze or iron protecting them can be counted on no hands.

Yes, both things should really stay in the realms of fantasy, don't you think?

Germanic and scythian noblewomen could serve in the army, there are records of a few female samurai, viking shieldmaidens, and spartan women were trained to be the citys last line of defense. The sweedish military has had female members since 1924, the russian since WW2.

Minor quibble, Shield maidens were expected to hang up the gear after they married. (Hence the name shield MAIDEN), and the rest of those were either the odd outliers, only to be used in a worst case scenario, or relatively modern happenings.

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

You'll also note that the playable characters in Hotline are also a pack of horrible psychopaths. Not to mention there is a big difference between Stout Strength and being fat. (And even then, it still carries it's health problems. Power lifters are the definition of the trope, and they tend to be prone to all kinds of problems.)

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

HM 2 was such a femininazi piece of SJW propaganda, if you hold it to GamerGate standards. Fat acceptance is just one aspect. Two of The Fans being female doubled down on it.

Right, you could skip that acted out rape scene that the developers said were vital to those characters. And it really wasn't.

You mean the scene that establishes what one of the characters does for work, and helps establish what people tend to think Jacket was like, and starts the player character on his path to madness?[/quote]
I still don't get your logic when it comes to realism. So because women fighting was rarer than men, their existance can only be justified if they are made into pinnup dolls with bikini armour that is simoultaneously historically non-existant and practically useless?

 

[Erttheking]

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Biology-14-WCB-General/dp/1259245748/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1498613071&sr=1-1

That's a textbook. I'm not going to spend 100 bucks on it just to have an argument with some dude I'll never meet in real life. However, if you could source a quote or two from it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/10/marine-experiment-finds-women-get-injured-more-frequently-shoot-less-accurately-than-men/

Actually reading that article, there are several criticisms about the research. For one, they were asked to assess individuals in their capability, but instead focused on averages using out-dated methods and data. The fact that the methodology was kept opaque is a red flag as well. Is there a place where this was published open to the public so I could dig a little deeper?

[quote0023]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF5103

This study is about the differences in muscle fiber characteristics between the sexes, which is something I never actually disputed. Rather my contention is that there is a lot more that goes into athleticism than brute strength, and that's not the only type of strength you can train for either.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/71/2/644.long

This study focused specifically on the link between muscular strength and age, focusing on the elbow and knee extensors and flexors. Useful data certainly. But ask any performing strong man if the only muscles he uses to lift human being are the extensors and flexors in his load-bearing joints and he'll just give you a funny look.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/see-the-skeletal-differences-between-women-and-men
https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1

Men and women have different bone structures. Again, something I never disputed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

This one I'm not entirely certain why you linked to as it's not about the point you're trying to prove, rather just narrowing down the origins of a common variety of sports injury. Could you clear this one up for me? What were you going for here?

So, your point of contention was that human sexual dimorphism doesn't exist, but, now you're admitting that it does?

What on earth are you talking about?

If you must insist on information being spoonfed to you.

The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00235103

Women have 52%~ Less upper body strength and 66%~ Lower body strength.

This is cited from sources such as:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/67/1/24
A comparison between male and female bodybuilders.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02701367.1986.10762192


https://www.aaos.org/AAOSNow/2010/Nov/research/research3/?ssopc=1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100202/

These are are about the increased rate of injury for women, particularly around the knee joints. Breaking your knee in the medieval age was typically not a good idea.

"Female athletes who participate in jumping and pivoting sports are 2 to 10 times more likely to sustain a knee ligament injury."


https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/09/10/US-Marines-study-Women-in-combat-injured-more-often-than-men/6121441908304/
https://www.scribd.com/doc/280017557/Marine-Corps-gender-integration-research-executive-summary
This stuff is related to the Washington Post article. Seems fairly accurate to me. But, I've no doubt people will look for holes.


But, I have to ask.

What as convinced you that women are as physically able as men, despite knowing they have smaller bodies, less upper and lower body strength and so on? Do you have any sources on this belief? Are there are athletic sports where women perform better than men? Do these sports have any crossover to physical combat?

Except for those societies where that was a done thing, right?

It astounds me how many dudes think that shitty stereotypes and fictional movie/games are accurate history textbooks.

The amount of "Societies" where women fought in plate Armour can probably be counted on one hand.

It's pretty basic biology that you don't make women fight.

Then again, the number of societies that all fought with encompassing skins of bronze or iron protecting them can be counted on no hands.

Yes, both things should really stay in the realms of fantasy, don't you think?

Germanic and scythian noblewomen could serve in the army, there are records of a few female samurai, viking shieldmaidens, and spartan women were trained to be the citys last line of defense. The sweedish military has had female members since 1924, the russian since WW2.

Minor quibble, Shield maidens were expected to hang up the gear after they married. (Hence the name shield MAIDEN), and the rest of those were either the odd outliers, only to be used in a worst case scenario, or relatively modern happenings.

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

You'll also note that the playable characters in Hotline are also a pack of horrible psychopaths. Not to mention there is a big difference between Stout Strength and being fat. (And even then, it still carries it's health problems. Power lifters are the definition of the trope, and they tend to be prone to all kinds of problems.)

Snip

Still feel like there's a way to make it work.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoutStrength

Couple of heavier guys in Hotline Miami 2 you could play as, no one complained about it.

HM 2 was such a femininazi piece of SJW propaganda, if you hold it to GamerGate standards. Fat acceptance is just one aspect. Two of The Fans being female doubled down on it.

Right, you could skip that acted out rape scene that the developers said were vital to those characters. And it really wasn't.

You mean the scene that establishes what one of the characters does for work, and helps establish what people tend to think Jacket was like, and starts the player character on his path to madness?[/quote]. And? Is there something wrong with gaming letting you play as a psychopath

If that's what was supposed to be going on the game did a shit job getting it across. Going by the interview scene I thought he was already off the deep end. And even then it's pretty pointless. He goes nuts, then gets killed...yeah, that sure adds a lot.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

snip

My logic is that the people arguing against Chainmail Bikinis being unrealistic is stupid because, realistically, women wouldn't be on the battlefield to begin with outside of some VERY specific situations, doubly so in an era where Knights and swords are a thing.

snip

You are aware that a good chunk of that game is that everything the characters are doing is ultimately pointless right? It's a pretty Nihlistic game from what I've seen.

 

[Erttheking]

snip

My logic is that the people arguing against Chainmail Bikinis being unrealistic is stupid because, realistically, women wouldn't be on the battlefield to begin with outside of some VERY specific situations, doubly so in an era where Knights and swords are a thing.

snip

You are aware that a good chunk of that game is that everything the characters are doing is ultimately pointless right? It's a pretty Nihlistic game from what I've seen.

I'm of the opinion that the second game is weaker than the first. I feel the actor in particular didn't have much going for him. Just that he was messed up in the head and then he got shot. Hardly the futility and pointlessness of violence that most other characters capture.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

snip

My logic is that the people arguing against Chainmail Bikinis being unrealistic is stupid because, realistically, women wouldn't be on the battlefield to begin with outside of some VERY specific situations, doubly so in an era where Knights and swords are a thing.

snip

You are aware that a good chunk of that game is that everything the characters are doing is ultimately pointless right? It's a pretty Nihlistic game from what I've seen.

In an age where knights and swords are a thing, nobody would ever fight in underwear. In some battles several female corpses have been found in the aftermath, and whatever they wore it would not have been a chainmail bikini. Anyone lucky enough to have access to metal armour in those days would make the most of it. Mount and Blade shows this perfectly. Women are rare on the battlefield, and if you play as a owman you will have a harder time being taken seriously, but no woman there wears something as impractical as a chainmail bikini. Whatever clothing or armour thry have, they do their best to cover as much as possible to attain the maximum ammount of protection from weapon blows. A chainmail bikini is a logistical waste of money and resources which fails to protect the wearer in a realistic setting

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

snip

My logic is that the people arguing against Chainmail Bikinis being unrealistic is stupid because, realistically, women wouldn't be on the battlefield to begin with outside of some VERY specific situations, doubly so in an era where Knights and swords are a thing.

snip

You are aware that a good chunk of that game is that everything the characters are doing is ultimately pointless right? It's a pretty Nihlistic game from what I've seen.

In an age where knights and swords are a thing, nobody would ever fight in underwear. In some battles several female corpses have been found in the aftermath, and whatever they wore it would not have been a chainmail bikini. Anyone lucky enough to have access to metal armour in those days would make the most of it. Mount and Blade shows this perfectly. Women are rare on the battlefield, and if you play as a owman you will have a harder time being taken seriously, but no woman there wears something as impractical as a chainmail bikini. Whatever clothing or armour thry have, they do their best to cover as much as possible to attain the maximum ammount of protection from weapon blows. A chainmail bikini is a logistical waste of money and resources which fails to protect the wearer in a realistic setting

Hence why you'll see said Bikinis in games that are unrealistic to begin with. What on Earth are you going on about here?