Your thoughts on... Nerd/Geek culture of today.

StatusNil

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Jux said:
The saying is 'hoisted by ones own petard', which... doesn't really apply here. I haven't had anything blow up in my face fortunately, as the 'social justice community', if such a thing exists, is leagues less toxic than nerd culture.
I'm merely suggesting that the "toxic" reputation that you're worried about getting tainted by is something that you yourself are promulgating by your own statements on the subject, which might not be as definitive as you clearly think.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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chadachada123 said:
Ignoring for a moment the "girl" part of "fake geek girl", how is it illogical to be wary of people that appear fairly new to the hobby but overly open about it, particularly when this hobby had been previously seen as "uncool" just a few years prior?
How do you determine they are fairly new just by looking at them?

And it's illogical because you are not guarding some kind of vault. What is there to be wary *of*? What are they going to do to you, stab you and steal the games they were only pretending to like?

When I was in middle school, Pokemon had just become un-cool again, and I would have been cautious about any girl (or guy) wearing Pokemon apparel. Similarly, when Pokemon and Halo and CoD became popular again during my junior/senior year, even among the jocks and the popular girls, I always had my guard up lest I say something TOO nerdy and be branded some sort of loser. My actions were mostly asocial and defensive, not anti-social and offensive. In hindsight, most seemed like typical casual gamers and not the type to fake it because they wanted to be "such a nerd lol xD".
When you're a kid being terrified of being branded a loser is still silly but more understandable. It kind of loses any power as an excuse for behavior towards others as an adult.

On the internet, though, I can easily see why faceless or anonymous gamers would be more offensive towards these apparent newcomers who SEEMED to be the type that would have made fun of us just a few years prior, since the internet doesn't have social stigma to control the flow of conversation.
Is that supposed to be an excuse for it or mean they aren't just a human shaped pile of excrement? Stupid personal prejudices aren't an excuse for being an ass to other people.
 

Supernova1138

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Jux said:
StatusNil said:
Jux said:
When I was a kid, I didn't tell others about my nerdy hobbies because it wasn't cool (and my self esteem sucked pretty bad). Now I don't tell people about my nerdy hobbies because I'd rather not be tainted with the association of the toxic communities.
Plus ca change, eh?

Of course, now you're the "Social Justice Bard", and you're one of singers of the Ballad of Toxic Communities. Talk about "hoist by your own canard".
The saying is 'hoisted by ones own petard', which... doesn't really apply here. I haven't had anything blow up in my face fortunately, as the 'social justice community', if such a thing exists, is leagues less toxic than nerd culture.
Oh come on, Social Justice is at least as toxic as you would claim nerd culture to be, possibly more so because they believe that their sketchy actions are morally justified as they will supposedly help women and minorities. As MovieBob infamously tweeted "There are no bad tactics, only bad targets." Social Justice is ironically very exclusionary if you do not toe a very specific line, and move with that line in lockstep when it changes.

Social Justice brooks no disagreement, anyone who questions any of it will be labelled as a misogynist, homophobe, transphobe, or racist, and will be ostracized and bullied. There is a good chance that anyone accused of the above will get doxxed or get their employers called in an attempt to get the accused fired, and that is just for disagreeing with Social Justice points, not for spewing hatred at women or minorities. This is doubly true if you are a straight white man as according to Social Justice, you are part of an oppressor class, and any hatred or action taken against you is entirely justified as white men are responsible for historical injustices that need to be repaid in full.
 

Bat Vader

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chadachada123 said:
Zhukov said:
It was the "fake geek girls" thing that cemented this view in me. Any culture capable of generating a full blown fucking moral panic over who is allowed to wear a Batman t-shirt or make Portal references has got something rotten in it.
Ignoring for a moment the "girl" part of "fake geek girl", how is it illogical to be wary of people that appear fairly new to the hobby but overly open about it, particularly when this hobby had been previously seen as "uncool" just a few years prior?

When I was in middle school, Pokemon had just become un-cool again, and I would have been cautious about any girl (or guy) wearing Pokemon apparel. Similarly, when Pokemon and Halo and CoD became popular again during my junior/senior year, even among the jocks and the popular girls, I always had my guard up lest I say something TOO nerdy and be branded some sort of loser. My actions were mostly asocial and defensive, not anti-social and offensive. In hindsight, most seemed like typical casual gamers and not the type to fake it because they wanted to be "such a nerd lol xD".

On the internet, though, I can easily see why faceless or anonymous gamers would be more offensive towards these apparent newcomers who SEEMED to be the type that would have made fun of us just a few years prior, since the internet doesn't have social stigma to control the flow of conversation.

Remember of course that, without hard statistics, we have no way of knowing just how many people are offensive dicks about it. That multiple girls in this thread have been accused of being fake isn't necessarily a sign of a culture-wide problem if it's just a handful of guys calling out every suspected girl they find. That's just people being dicks, an unfortunate absolute.

Mostly though, it's hard to argue about this sort of thing when we have different definitions for all of this. Your idea of what a "fake geek" looks like to those that dislike them probably does not match their definition. A strawman of sorts, though unintentional. Hell, I disagree completely that there ever was a full blown moral panic, but that could be because our definitions vary.
It's illogical becuase it doesn't make sense. If someone develops a new interest in something and is open about it you should embrace that and show them the wonders of it. Even if they are a casual fan of it you could help them a bigger fan by talking to and not being wary.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Zenja said:
First of all, Gethsmani, as I said before, if all the 30 year olds that claim to be big comic fans since Marvel movies got big were buying them in the 90s and 2000s then Marvel wouldnt have risked bankruptcy.
That isn't the least bit demonstrable.

However, on this site that is centered around nerd and Geek culture, you have some people who want to see the culture die. Society is trying a hostile takeover of the culture, and it is working because you are up against people who are not good at social warfare and have a tendancy to lash out and retreat. I don't see how someone who wants the culture to die is putting anything positive into the community.
Do you have any evidence it's not merely people who were already there just fed up? Or some who were already here agreeing? It's this weird little thing where supposedly anyone who has been into these hobbies for a fair length of time must agree with you and all others are outsiders.

And you seem to think they want it just gone. You act as if die is literal, as if it even can be for something like this. Anything that dies will just be replaced. Interest in these things creates a sort of community which will have a sort of culture. Death of the culture just means death of the current culture. It can't just die and leave a void.

"Fake Geek Girls" is a result of people also believing there are "Fake Geek Guys" too. There are fake geeks out there in it for the social aspect. Again read StatusNil's post. Nerd's don't use tend to use the phrase "I am such a nerd/geek" because saying that 'ironically' doesn't seem funny to them. They probably don't see much value in calling other people such either as they get made fun of for the same thing.
This seems like an odd outdated stereotype.

Phasmal, you are a girl. Understand there are many in this culture that feel threatened by you because other males and females have mocked them for their awkwardness as a geek or nerd. I am not saying that gives them a free pass, but trying a little amnesty with key users in each community could go a long way.
Why do they deserve amnesty?

Here's this thing. Why are you expecting women to act more sympathetic and give amnesty to someone who personally treats them poorly? The 'key user' is acting based off prejudice and the other party may quite justly retaliate. Why is the innocent party expected to have sympathy for the guilty one?

I like you and can tell you aren't socially inept, but you tend to come into threads with a "Z snap" and your head bobbing. It isn't that your arguments don't hold merit, they most certainly do and that isn't me patronizing. However, you tend to forego any empathy for the other side (males who have bad social experience) even though you constantly request empathy for your side (females).
You think it's comparable when the 'males who had bad social experience' in question are treating women who did nothing wrong poorly? Quite frankly it isn't.

They don't deserve empathy because they're being prejudiced jerks in the situations being talked about. Women are just *existing*. Being a jerk because of 'bad social experience' doesn't compare to people being a jerk to you for existing.


I assure you many males in this environment have experienced not only bullying and belittling from other males but from females as well.
Here's the thing though... why should anyone care in this context? This context being when we bring up some of these people being jerks. Personally when someone is called out for being a jerk and their response is "Oh poor me" I just start a more permenant dislike of them.

If someone brings up their problems asking for help that is one thing. Then I would be sympathetic. If these problems are brought out when they are being called out for bad behavior, well then sympathy turns to disgust.

The toxicity of this community does indeed have a lot to do with a large influx of people over the last 10 years having zero tolerance for those who were essentially here first.
As someone who is 27 and has been gaming since I was like 4... Screw 'here first' status.

What's being shown is not zero tolerance for me, what's being shown is zero tolerance for people being jerks. I feel quite tolerated. Probably has to do with me not being a jerk to people and then expecting 'tolerance' for it.

To boil it down, zero tolerance isn't being shown for people, it's being shown for poor behavior.

There are many with typically unappealing features like body odor, balding scalps in their 20s, obesity, overbites, underbites, unibrows, etc. I don't say this to their detriment but rather to remind people that this culture was not originally inhabited by a bunch of attractive TV nerds.
Sounds like a bunch of stereotypes

Nerd/Geek culture is full of insecurities and it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy. The culture holds escapism and even more cleverly things to argue over as a way to feel superior. By being the person that knows the lore of Star Trek or all the current rules to Magic the Gathering at a moments notice lets you do well within that particular social circle and your worth in that social circle isn't based on looks or society status. A sort of prestige is granted to those who devote more time to knowing the finer details of nerdom/geekdom. A prestige only worth pursuing if society is a total mystery to you as the time requirement is fairly high.
Insecurities shouldn't be *encouraged* when harmful is the problem. I think the idea of trying to find a way to be superior to itself be a toxic thing that should be dropped. It leads to disgusting pettiness. It's one thing to enjoy things and read up on them and another to try and hold it over others to gain respect.

I have always been a more socially capable but socially inept geek myself. I understand concepts, I suck at executing them despite trying. Perhaps I have been lead astray by false feedback, perhaps not. It is all trial and error for me and I fall on my face consistently enough to have established some social insecurities of my own. I still believe in the idea though and probably always will. I am a Christian and those beliefs reverberate in sync with these ideals as well. Tolerance and understanding is the target behavior to me and I don't care if the world wants to tell me I am wrong all I see is people creating problems for themselves by not valuing such things. I strive for them constantly and I think they offer a huge merit to society so I will certainly advertise them.
I'm not a Christian and what I see is you telling the people being treated poorly to act like doormats to the ones treating them poorly based on personal insecurities.

The ones who should be changing are the ones with the personal insecurities treating others poorly. No one should have to bow to them to make them feel better about themselves.

The need to feel superior is a very human one. We like to rank things and we like to be at the top of that ranking. However, it helps if we all understand that these rankings are artificial made entirely by our own mind and that the rest of existence is unconcerned with how we rank things. We too should avoid prescribing to the idea that how humans rank things is the definitive nature of things. Rather we should view the way we rank things as the arbitrary compulsion that it is. Then we can stop having console wars and attacking people for not giving a game an additional .5 in its score. More importantly, we can stop thinking some people are worth more than others. Including the thought that we are more important than others.
The thing is, treating people as equals to me does not mean that their actions can't alter how they should be treated. A murderer shouldn't be treated the same as an innocent, for example. At least insofar as they should be punished and they need to cease their behavior.

Similarly, person A being a jerk to person B for no good reason should quit being a jerk. B should not be expected to show sympathy to A first. A should just quit it.

As said in Civil War (paraphrasing) "An empire that falls to an enemy can rebuild. An empire that falls to itself is gone forever." Those who come into this culture to abuse it are more dangerous than an outsider casting stones. I like to hold to the thought that they are ignorantly trying to help and accidentally causing damage. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. As such, I am trying to offer what I can to help them see a way that is more helpful than shouting out everyone's faults in a community of insecurities and defense mechanisms.
The idea that people come in to abuse it seems like utter nonsense. It is just creating an enemy with an unrealistic motive.

Your help is asking them to kowtow to the first aggressor.
 

Zenja

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Phasmal said:
I'm really not sure what you mean by 'popularity contest'. And who is 'everyone else'? And I'm pretty sure we didn't all just get along before the last ten years because I kinda didn't just show up in the last ten years and have always been seeing this crap.
Really? You have been in nerd culture for over 10 years and you can't notice a change in it today along the lines of a popularity contest? Even with Youtube celebrities becoming what they are just off of playing video games? Everyone else, is "everyone else". Suddenly comics and gaming is a multi BILLION dollar industry not a $100 million one. Nerd culture is invading everything from Hollywood - who as I said before couldnt get a spiderman movie off the ground 25 years ago and in that 25 years we suddenly have rebooted him twice having 3 renditions spanning 6 movies - to social media with facebook investing in Rift. You don't see any change? I don't believe you.

We didn't just get along like tulips and roses, but we managed because there was never many of us. Do you remember that? You actually may not if your only access into geek culture is videogames, come to think of it. Not only have video games stayed on the cusp thanks to Madden, Mortal Kombat, Doom, and the like. But if you were playing more niche titles, you were probably doing so alone back then as online gaming didn't really hit big until last gen. However in early "nerd shops" housing MTG, Warhammer, and comic communities we all got along out of necessity. A truly unique thing if you have never been in such an environment. Today comic-con is seen as an event thanks to the success of marvel movies into pop culture and even cosplay is generally accepted. Think about that for a second. Cosplay is now acceptable in pop culture.

Let's do both of these together said:
Yeah, I get that. I don't know what it's like to be a nerdy dude with those specific insecurities. That doesn't mean I'm gonna be okay with some nerd dude putting his insecurities on me.

Zenja said:
It isn't about commanding respect, its about being someone in the community who can shoulder some of the actual heavy baggage of the community. That is what every community is about. Just like I have to help carry your baggage (you needy girl ;)), you have to help carry mine.
I... don't... what?
That's kind of my point. You don't need to carry my baggage, and I don't need to carry the baggage of guys who were ignored by girls in high school.
You are putting your insecurities on others when you freak out about a guy asking your friend about Fallout when she is wearing a Fallout shirt. You ever see Bill Engvall's standup? He takes his car with a flat tire to the service station and the mechanic there looks at the tire, then looks at Bill and asks "Tire go flat?" Uhaul truck is in his driveway and they are loading boxes onto the truck. Neighbor comes up and asks "Are you moving?" Pulls his boat in from the lake and pulls out the line with a bunch of Bass on it. A guy on the docks yells to them "Hey, you guys catch all them fish?"

We have established that this is a community with some in it who aren't exactly social elites. I am sure the guy behind the counter either was making small talk to get through the midnight release and asked many people many stupid questions because of the mentality "ugh, I am at work at midnight and I have to be back in at 11am tomorrow. This sucks, but I need to not be a dick to these customers." Something along those lines. If it was because she was a woman, he may have found her mildly attractive and got flustered, at which point, you can guarantee he called himself an dumbass when she left.
Same thing with your playstation for your boyfriend story. Let's first of all agree that men outnumber the women when it comes to console gaming. 95% of the time I go to gamestop any girl there is usually there with a guy who seems to be the one leading her around as he shops, or a mom either asking questions or following her kid. I only say 95% and not 100% because I know I have seen a girl shopping in there by herself at some time but I honestly can't recall it. As such it isn't THAT much of a stretch and probably a fair guess considering the statistics of his store that you were purchasing a big gift for someone. Additionally, he may have been subtely checking to see if you were single hoping for "I don't have a boyfriend".

So you actually are indeed pushing your insecurities off on others. That's why I called it baggage. We can't help but thrust it at people because we don't even know we are doing it most of the time and even if you are aware it isn't like you could just suddenly stop if you wanted to. So yes, the rest of us have to carry that baggage that you have to make sure that anything anyone says to you could be interpreted as sexist, including "You like Fallout?" as simple small talk. We have to assume you don't buy gifts for people and that the safest route is to generally stay out of your business or something minor we say could be seen as hostile instead of friendly small talk. That is baggage we have to carry and not let it upset us even though it is tremendously unfair to males. Like me wanting to snap at a girl cashier for asking me if I like fallout when I am buying it in a fallout shirt.

I haven't stepped inside anywhere. I've always been here. I don't think pointing out flaws is trying to tear down the community.
That comment was more generalized, not aimed at you. Some people have stepped in and coincidentally around that same time a bunch of people became vocal about how this community should be destroyed and that it has nothing good in it. I was pointing out a correlation.

Zenja said:
A sentiment I myself have a hard time containing. Just try to see if you can help everyone focus on a positive aspect of your perspective and try to leave the negative out if you can. (Note: If you can, sometimes it is really hard but it gets easier over time) Always try to push the positive side of your argument harder than the negative and always assume that anyone who speaks against you, does so with the best intentions.
This still doesn't answer my question. If my mere presence in geek culture is enough to upset a dude, what am I supposed to do about that?

Here, this is a perfect example (I've used it before, but it's just useful). A few years ago, when me and my friends got tired of WoW, we all switched over to Neverwinter for a little bit. We did what we do, and we made a guild. Back then (I don't know if they fixed it), we were all on the same server as all the Americans. So, this American dude joins and he comes onto our voice server. I don't remember what we were talking about, but I say something. At which point he's like 'Oh I didn't know there was a girl in here' and I'm like 'Well. Yep.' at which point he asks me if I like playing video games. I sort of let that question hang there because really. Anyway, dude decides to warn my friends and boyfriend that he just had to check because you can't be too careful.

In your opinion, what should I have done in that situation, where a dude is telling my friends, that I have known for over 5 years through videogames that they need to be careful because I might not actually like them?

I know what I did, I want to know what you think I should have done.
No harm was done, I don't see it as a big deal. I would either have ignored it or said something about focusing on the game. Either way, I would have downplayed it. This is a great example that you are in a culture of people with less than great communication skills and even worse people skills. Treating them like vile Krags isnt going to make them better at dealing with people. It will probably make them feel even more like "you can't be too careful". Making people walk on eggshells is not going to improve communication skills, nor is ignoring any eggshells for that matter.
 

chadachada123

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Secondhand Revenant said:
Bat Vader said:
See, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said how difficult it is to have this kind of discussion. Both of you and I have very different understandings/definitions for several parts of this, such that you're (likely unintentionally) strawmanning my arguments; arguing against a completely hyperbolic version.

Nowhere did I excuse acting like an ass, and nowhere did I say to treat new fans with distrust. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but it's the "making a display of" your interest in nerdy/uncool shit that is suspicious as fuck.

Perhaps neither of you have ever been actually bullied before, but a common method is to pretend to be interested in someone's hobby, and then later make fun of them for it. It's not very fun, and makes it quite difficult to trust others that are exceedingly interested in your interests. It's particularly brutal when it's a popular girl that abuses a guy in this fashion. Carrying some of this suspicion into adulthood isn't illogical (or at least, unreasonable) in the slightest.

You wouldn't blame an abuse victim for being suspicious of someone being overly nice to them, and bullying isn't a whole lot different.

But again, it's pretty clear that you both have a completely different understanding from me as to what a "fake geek" is, what they act like, how often people get accused of such in public, how often it happens online, all of this, such that arguing is meaningless.

Of course accusing regular gamers, male or female, of being fake is stupid, but that in no way means that the witch hunt didn't start because of real hipsters fitting the stereotype to a T.
 

Zenja

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Secondhand Revenant said:
That isn't the least bit demonstrable.
Do you have any evidence it's not merely people who were already there just fed up? Or some who were already here agreeing? It's this weird little thing where supposedly anyone who has been into these hobbies for a fair length of time must agree with you and all others are outsiders.

And you seem to think they want it just gone. You act as if die is literal, as if it even can be for something like this. Anything that dies will just be replaced. Interest in these things creates a sort of community which will have a sort of culture. Death of the culture just means death of the current culture. It can't just die and leave a void.
This seems like an odd outdated stereotype.
No, I don't provide proof as it wouldn't even be possible in some cases and it won't be available for years in others. Plus, this is a message board not the U.N. where I am giving some sort of deliberation. I have to take it on good faith that you will hear me out and consider what I am saying in honesty trying to seek out the truth. See if it relates to your experiences and communicate. One problem this particular site has is the desire to argue instead of discuss. Many discussion get tied up in semantics here and by the end of the thread the argument isn't even about the discussion anymore its about minor details that are related to this or that related minor aspect of the discussion. Kind of like a divide and conquer strategy constantly employs to break apart anyone's argument so that no cohesive point can be made from the other side.

I think that with the success of the Marvel Movies and the Nolan's Batman, pop culture has deemed comics "cool" and with Rock Band and Call of Duty and even Skyrim, video games are now considered cool. Then with hipster culture with people wearing glasses with no lenses being a part of pop culture, there are indeed people here for the fad of it and not actually seeking to be a part of the culture genuinely but to have an identity in pop culture. I can't prove any of this hypothesis though as it is a social arts thing, not science.

Why do they deserve amnesty?
You think it's comparable when the 'males who had bad social experience' in question are treating women who did nothing wrong poorly? Quite frankly it isn't.

They don't deserve empathy because they're being prejudiced jerks in the situations being talked about. Women are just *existing*. Being a jerk because of 'bad social experience' doesn't compare to people being a jerk to you for existing.

Here's this thing. Why are you expecting women to act more sympathetic and give amnesty to someone who personally treats them poorly? The 'key user' is acting based off prejudice and the other party may quite justly retaliate. Why is the innocent party expected to have sympathy for the guilty one?
Here's the thing though... why should anyone care in this context? This context being when we bring up some of these people being jerks. Personally when someone is called out for being a jerk and their response is "Oh poor me" I just start a more permenant dislike of them.

If someone brings up their problems asking for help that is one thing. Then I would be sympathetic. If these problems are brought out when they are being called out for bad behavior, well then sympathy turns to disgust.
Everyone deserves amnesty within the community. That is how a community works. Even the hipsters, even the social pariah, even the casual gamer who puts gamers down. Most of your perspective seems like you have forgotten that a thing called 'pride' exists and that everyone has it. You expect them to ask for help (set aside their pride) instead of just trying to offer it where you see it may be needed (set aside your pride). I am not saying that women have to always be the one offering sympathy, I am talking to a woman and so am telling HER that she should be offering more sympathy. If the guy was here I would tell him the same. But I can't because he isn't here.

As someone who is 27 and has been gaming since I was like 4... Screw 'here first' status.

What's being shown is not zero tolerance for me, what's being shown is zero tolerance for people being jerks. I feel quite tolerated. Probably has to do with me not being a jerk to people and then expecting 'tolerance' for it.

To boil it down, zero tolerance isn't being shown for people, it's being shown for poor behavior.
Through the use of poor behavior I might add. Acting vile in response to vile behavior. This is why the toxicity level is so high.

Nerd/Geek culture is full of insecurities and it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy. The culture holds escapism and even more cleverly things to argue over as a way to feel superior. By being the person that knows the lore of Star Trek or all the current rules to Magic the Gathering at a moments notice lets you do well within that particular social circle and your worth in that social circle isn't based on looks or society status. A sort of prestige is granted to those who devote more time to knowing the finer details of nerdom/geekdom. A prestige only worth pursuing if society is a total mystery to you as the time requirement is fairly high.
Insecurities shouldn't be *encouraged* when harmful is the problem. I think the idea of trying to find a way to be superior to itself be a toxic thing that should be dropped. It leads to disgusting pettiness. It's one thing to enjoy things and read up on them and another to try and hold it over others to gain respect.
In a perfect world. We can't even have a discussion right now without the toxicity and you think that we can solve insecurities in one fell swoop? Let's get some boundaries set and then we can start addressing larger problems. IN this scneario we asre assuming a male who has very poor social skills to the point he has many defense mechanisms in place and as a result fuels it with a superiority complex. I have met people like this. YUou can't just tell him "Hey, it's ok" and he will comply and believe you. That is his baggage and the community COULD help him overcome that. But they have to quit calling him a selfish arrogant dick because that makes his superiority complex flare up and fire off his defenses.

I have always been a more socially capable but socially inept geek myself. I understand concepts, I suck at executing them despite trying. Perhaps I have been lead astray by false feedback, perhaps not. It is all trial and error for me and I fall on my face consistently enough to have established some social insecurities of my own. I still believe in the idea though and probably always will. I am a Christian and those beliefs reverberate in sync with these ideals as well. Tolerance and understanding is the target behavior to me and I don't care if the world wants to tell me I am wrong all I see is people creating problems for themselves by not valuing such things. I strive for them constantly and I think they offer a huge merit to society so I will certainly advertise them.
I'm not a Christian and what I see is you telling the people being treated poorly to act like doormats to the ones treating them poorly based on personal insecurities.

The ones who should be changing are the ones with the personal insecurities treating others poorly. No one should have to bow to them to make them feel better about themselves.
Not act like doormats, but to understand that not everyone sees this world the same way they do. Who are you to say who should be changing, do you rank yourself above others? They got those insecurities by having others treat them poorly. You seem to be of the notion that insecurities are easy things to get over. SO logically, if it is so easy for you to get over insecurities then why not let them treat you poorly, you manage any resulting insecurities, they get a confidence boost and can grow socially, it has no lasting effect on your excellent social skills, problem solved. Use excellent social skills to help someone up rather than to just look down on them.

I don't see the problem. Of course, it could be that pride thing.

Reread this said:
The need to feel superior is a very human one. We like to rank things and we like to be at the top of that ranking. However, it helps if we all understand that these rankings are artificial made entirely by our own mind and that the rest of existence is unconcerned with how we rank things. We too should avoid prescribing to the idea that how humans rank things is the definitive nature of things. Rather we should view the way we rank things as the arbitrary compulsion that it is. Then we can stop having console wars and attacking people for not giving a game an additional .5 in its score. More importantly, we can stop thinking some people are worth more than others. Including the thought that we are more important than others.
The thing is, treating people as equals to me does not mean that their actions can't alter how they should be treated. A murderer shouldn't be treated the same as an innocent, for example. At least insofar as they should be punished and they need to cease their behavior.

Similarly, person A being a jerk to person B for no good reason should quit being a jerk. B should not be expected to show sympathy to A first. A should just quit it.
In other words "It's not fair". These guys didn't commit murder. They snapped socially at worst or said something dumb at best. It may be hard for you to relate to that but sometimes we do things we don't even approve of ourselves. By all means don't just act as if it is ok to be treated poorly but don't act like a jerk in response. Which is the behavior I most commonly see. It has even been the behavior I have exhibited before. I try not to, but being able to forgive someone without demanding they request it is truly admirable.

The idea that people come in to abuse it seems like utter nonsense. It is just creating an enemy with an unrealistic motive.

Your help is asking them to kowtow to the first aggressor.
Not everyone sees things the same way.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Terminalchaos said:
I totally disagree with what you say and I feel you just want to call us sexist and insult us.
Implicitly excluding Fox!

So the abuse victims will grow out of being abused and just magically become well adjusted?
I didn't see him say that.

What I'm seeing, and I agree with 110%, is that it's not an excuse for how they treat others who aren't at fault for the abuse.

People that are bullied don't magically get better and well adjusted and asking us to is dismissing our trauma.
Asking them not to be a jerk to other people isn't dismissing it. It's saying it is not an adequate excuse.

Sorry but I won't dismiss the bullying many of us have endured so lightly. When you have an abused animal you don't put it to sleep just because its a bit jumpy and snaps at people unless you're heartless. You certainly don't blame the animal for the actions of those that abused it to the point it became antisocial.
You also keep them away from people. Do you want us to keep them away from people, with collars on? Lock them up if they bite?

Thing is, they aren't animals. Other animals have lesser reasoning capacity. We expect less of other animals and give them less rights as a result of it. When an animal snaps at someone for nothing we forgive it because it's not smart enough to know better. I don't buy that the same is true for the people in question. I don't think we should treat them the way we treat those we believe ourselves superior to. As a result I don't believe they deserve to have their problems take care of by the rest of us when they snap at us.

You try and get people to stop abusing them and try and help socialize those that were abused as best you can. Telling them to get over it and not be bullies themselves is sweeping the problem under the rug and blaming the victim.
Here's the thing. They aren't my problem. I have my own life to deal with. Everyone does. No one should be *expected* to deal with their problems for them. I am not saying people should make new problems for them for no reason, but that is all anyone owes them.

They shouldn't be bullies either, but they are better than the people that abused them to that state to begin with.
Why? Maybe they were bullied by a kid with abusive parents, then what?

Also who cares if they even were better? The question here is about how they treat others. That they are better than some third party means jack shit as far as I can tell.

If you wish to denigrate a group, denigrate the initial bullies that habitually pick on the weak and different.
Better solution: denigrate the people being bullies right now, not the ones from someone's past who are long gone. More effective.

If someone doesn't know how to interact with another gender, perhaps it is because the other gender eschewed them for not being popular and so they aren't used to the other gender.
Oh so it's supposed to be the entire gender's fault? Not only that all of that gender got together and said 'Oh this guy isn't popular enought let's ignore him for that and no other reason'?

If you don't know much about a group since they avoid you or bully you themselves, how are you supposed to treat them the way they wish to be treated?
There's a basic level of decency one can be expected to show without needing to ask.

You don't know enough to know how they wish to be treated. When we had our first female member in our gaming group, half the group asked her out the first week.
Funnily enough I never had to ask any girls whether they would like that or not to figure out not to do that.

Not getting social mores and saying offensive things because you don't get why they are offensive isn't bullying. Not knowing how to interact socially because of being rejected or having social issues does not make you a bully.
It's being a jerk if you keep doing it.

It's also lacking any empathy to treat people in ways you clearly wouldn't want to be treated.


Maybe you encountered posers or something but the geeks I know and the new ones I meet tend to have intellectual interests in addition to their geeky passions.
I think it's telling that the first reaction is they must be posers or some other false geek or something. Someone experienced something contrary? Clearly these people were fake.

Some geeks were a bit arrogant and closed off but that is because they were harassed so much and mocked.
Are people really supposed to buy this big stereotype as accurate?

Once you know them they are way less rude and exclusionary than the people that bullied and harassed them.
Who cares if they're supposedly better? What matters if they are acting decently not that they're just not as bad as someone else from years ago.

You hit another human being because of words?
*shakes my head in disgust*

In the face? What a dick move. If the person who's dead dad had done that, I could understand that. Grief can make someone react and they have the right to react. I don't feel like you had the right to make that call yourself. I hope you were punished, but doubt justice was served.
Served him right, there's no reason to mock someone for their dad dying.

You physically attacked another human being (whom you admitted was abused) because they didn't get social mores? What if it turned out your friend had Aspberger's? You attacked someone who may not have known better.
It would still serve him right.

You expect abuse victims to just be normal and act acceptable all the time?
Personally I expect them to act like decent people.

I had a geek friend who was a complete ass but didn't quite realize it. It was hard to get close but once I realized who he was at the core, I saw that a lot of what he said and did was in reaction to the abuse he suffered. Bullies treated him like shit, he mirrored their behavior because that's what he does to behavior. He doesn't know social "normal" so to him normal is how he is treated. People treated him like shit so he honestly thought that was how he was supposed to treat people. He was not a bully.
Bully is about his behavior towards others. He was one it sounds like.

He did not receive glee from harming others.
He doesn't have to to be a bully.

He just treated others exactly as he was treated and didn't get why they thought it wasn't ok. ("well they said that to me yesterday." Whats wrong with saying it to them?")A bunch of us had to take time to teach him that a lot of the people that treated him that way were assholes and should not be mimicked. He thought it was unfair. He was right. It isn't fair to be vilified for reciprocation.
It is when you're 'reciprocating' at people who didn't do it on the first place.

He had to learn that just because popular sociopaths get away with bullying and being mean does not mean he gets to. Just because he was rude to others does not in any way negate the horrific treatment he received.
Did anyone say it negated it? No, people are saying his problems in life don't negate him or others being a jerk.

Your admitted proclivity to use physical force against those that perform in a way you disagree with makes me think you are a bully. The way you seem to try and justify bullies and attack geek culture does not dissuade me from this opinion. You complain about bullies yet you are one. I find that despicable.
Proclivity? He said he punched someone he didn't say it was a habit.

You seem like you're just saying shit about him because he upset you.

I'm glad your former friend got over being friends with a bully. Your friend was an asshole, too but as you said you were bullied and then you thought it was ok to bully someone else because they said something you found offensive. It seems like you're the one engaging in the victim complex you are decrying. It seems interesting that you think bullying victims just get over it. In my experience they don't. I'm glad the bullying victims you know were more resilient. Your allegation that people overvalue their perceived intelligence as a coping mechanism smacks of personal bias. Perhaps you personally knew people who thought they were smart? How do you know they weren't? Smart people can do stupid things. Many of the geeks in the groups I was in had credentials such as Academic Decathlon medals or being forced to be in the gifted education program. Even without those credentials we wouldn't doubt their mental capabilities. Usually the people casting aspersions on the intellect of others are those insecure of their own intellectual capabilities. Again, that's my personal experience.
In my experience people who go around declaring themselves smart in the first place often are mostly boasting. To say the people he met were not usually of above average intelligence hardly seems like a grand onsult.

As I said before, it is a matter of personal experience affecting your bias.
That sounds much more like your problem... especially given how personal you got about him. And, you know, the way you decided his experience must be full of posers lol

What if the exclusionary culture you see is simply geeks trying to create a "safe space" from the people that have mocked and harassed them?
I'm waiting to see the justification for poor treatment of women. Plenty within the culture seem to want to see that changed. We just get a certain insular bunch that want to pretend anyone who doesn't agree with the status quo and wants to see more accdptance is an outsider.

Really why shouldn't I want to see your lot kicked out? You act as if I am some kind of newcomer for not being massively bullied. Despite being pretty much all into fantasy and video games etc as my main hobbies all my life.

Some groups that have been abused deserve respite but geeks don't?
Not particularly no. You seem to assume we all want people to have safe spaces that exclude everyone. I can understand some reasons for exclusion. Not sure why you think it's fair to privilege certain geeks over others and declare the non-bullied ones or female ones not essential.

Do geeks have a right to be annoyed when they perceive their "culture being appropriated?"
Insofar as you can feel whatever you want even if it's unjustified.

They would be wrong. The media etc is open and for all to enjoy.

If it isn't their culture and culture is collectively held then no one should be mad at cultural appropriation since it is a form of integration and acceptance.
What I'm seeing is an attitude of you thinking that all your opponents share the values you dislike.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Zenja said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
That isn't the least bit demonstrable.
Do you have any evidence it's not merely people who were already there just fed up? Or some who were already here agreeing? It's this weird little thing where supposedly anyone who has been into these hobbies for a fair length of time must agree with you and all others are outsiders.

And you seem to think they want it just gone. You act as if die is literal, as if it even can be for something like this. Anything that dies will just be replaced. Interest in these things creates a sort of community which will have a sort of culture. Death of the culture just means death of the current culture. It can't just die and leave a void.
This seems like an odd outdated stereotype.
No, I don't provide proof as it wouldn't even be possible in some cases and it won't be available for years in others. Plus, this is a message board not the U.N. where I am giving some sort of deliberation. I have to take it on good faith that you will hear me out and consider what I am saying in honesty trying to seek out the truth. See if it relates to your experiences and communicate.
Here's the thing. I'm not convinced your assessment is correct or comes from good reasoning. I'm not convinced you aren't just overestimating and brash accusing those who disagree with being interlopers.

One problem this particular site has is the desire to argue instead of discuss. Many discussion get tied up in semantics here and by the end of the thread the argument isn't even about the discussion anymore its about minor details that are related to this or that related minor aspect of the discussion. Kind of like a divide and conquer strategy constantly employs to break apart anyone's argument so that no cohesive point can be made from the other side.
Well, if you're trying to frame it as those who were here first vs interlopers, it kind of matters here whether you are accurate or not.

I think that with the success of the Marvel Movies and the Nolan's Batman, pop culture has deemed comics "cool" and with Rock Band and Call of Duty and even Skyrim, video games are now considered cool. Then with hipster culture with people wearing glasses with no lenses being a part of pop culture, there are indeed people here for the fad of it and not actually seeking to be a part of the culture genuinely but to have an identity in pop culture. I can't prove any of this hypothesis though as it is a social arts thing, not science.
Suggesting the existence of fans who have shallow interest to appear popular is one thing. It's a giant leap to act as if they must be the source of the idea that things need to change. Indeed it seems unlikely that someone with a shallow interest would be invested enough to say anything.

Why do they deserve amnesty?
You think it's comparable when the 'males who had bad social experience' in question are treating women who did nothing wrong poorly? Quite frankly it isn't.

They don't deserve empathy because they're being prejudiced jerks in the situations being talked about. Women are just *existing*. Being a jerk because of 'bad social experience' doesn't compare to people being a jerk to you for existing.

Here's this thing. Why are you expecting women to act more sympathetic and give amnesty to someone who personally treats them poorly? The 'key user' is acting based off prejudice and the other party may quite justly retaliate. Why is the innocent party expected to have sympathy for the guilty one?
Here's the thing though... why should anyone care in this context? This context being when we bring up some of these people being jerks. Personally when someone is called out for being a jerk and their response is "Oh poor me" I just start a more permenant dislike of them.

If someone brings up their problems asking for help that is one thing. Then I would be sympathetic. If these problems are brought out when they are being called out for bad behavior, well then sympathy turns to disgust.
Everyone deserves amnesty within the community. That is how a community works. Even the hipsters, even the social pariah, even the casual gamer who puts gamers down.
No it isn't. There can exist expectations within a community and the community can shun those that refuse to meet them. Now there can exist unreasonable expectations, but I think not being a jerk is a very reasonable one. Jerks who don't apologize and change deserve to be shunned.

Most of your perspective seems like you have forgotten that a thing called 'pride' exists and that everyone has it.
Or you utterly fail to understand my perspective. It's not about pride, it's about fairness. It's about not expecting people to pick up someone else's burdens just to be treated equally. Someone is treated unfairly and then you seriously dare to suggest that maybe they should sympathize with the jerk so they can be treated fairly. Like for fuck's sake, why is the sympathy going to the jerk?

You expect them to ask for help (set aside their pride) instead of just trying to offer it where you see it may be needed (set aside your pride).
No, I expect them to act like decent people.

And why would I offer help? I have no interest in helping people who have only made a poor showing of themselves. I, nor anyone else, exist to take care of someone else's problems.

I am not saying that women have to always be the one offering sympathy, I am talking to a woman and so am telling HER that she should be offering more sympathy. If the guy was here I would tell him the same. But I can't because he isn't here.
Then why must it always be the ones treated unfairly that must offer the sympathy to the ones who were being jerks without true provocation?

As someone who is 27 and has been gaming since I was like 4... Screw 'here first' status.

What's being shown is not zero tolerance for me, what's being shown is zero tolerance for people being jerks. I feel quite tolerated. Probably has to do with me not being a jerk to people and then expecting 'tolerance' for it.

To boil it down, zero tolerance isn't being shown for people, it's being shown for poor behavior.
Through the use of poor behavior I might add. Acting vile in response to vile behavior. This is why the toxicity level is so high.
And what poor behavior might that be?

Nerd/Geek culture is full of insecurities and it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy. The culture holds escapism and even more cleverly things to argue over as a way to feel superior. By being the person that knows the lore of Star Trek or all the current rules to Magic the Gathering at a moments notice lets you do well within that particular social circle and your worth in that social circle isn't based on looks or society status. A sort of prestige is granted to those who devote more time to knowing the finer details of nerdom/geekdom. A prestige only worth pursuing if society is a total mystery to you as the time requirement is fairly high.
Insecurities shouldn't be *encouraged* when harmful is the problem. I think the idea of trying to find a way to be superior to itself be a toxic thing that should be dropped. It leads to disgusting pettiness. It's one thing to enjoy things and read up on them and another to try and hold it over others to gain respect.
In a perfect world. We can't even have a discussion right now without the toxicity and you think that we can solve insecurities in one fell swoop?
Perhaps you can enlighten to me as where I said it would be easily solved or even suggested a manner in which to solve it?

I only see me saying not to encourage insecurities.

Let's get some boundaries set and then we can start addressing larger problems. IN this scneario we asre assuming a male who has very poor social skills to the point he has many defense mechanisms in place and as a result fuels it with a superiority complex. I have met people like this. YUou can't just tell him "Hey, it's ok" and he will comply and believe you.
I never suggested that solution. I much prefer to shun someone with such behavior.

That is his baggage and the community COULD help him overcome that. But they have to quit calling him a selfish arrogant dick because that makes his superiority complex flare up and fire off his defenses.
Why the hell are you expecting other people to help him overcome that? Here's the thing, he's actively acting in a way to make me not want to be even acquainted with him. Why would I help him? Why should anyone be expected to? I'm not some kind of social charity.

You preach at us as if we need to do more for him. Why don't you preach at him? Why are the people who do nothing wrong expected to labor for those who behave poorly?

Personally it sometimes irks me to be the one with the burden of thoughtfulness in certain matters pertaining to friends and family. But I do it because I like them. Here's some asshole who I don't even like... why would I do that for him? He's made himself unlikable and offers nothing.

I have always been a more socially capable but socially inept geek myself. I understand concepts, I suck at executing them despite trying. Perhaps I have been lead astray by false feedback, perhaps not. It is all trial and error for me and I fall on my face consistently enough to have established some social insecurities of my own. I still believe in the idea though and probably always will. I am a Christian and those beliefs reverberate in sync with these ideals as well. Tolerance and understanding is the target behavior to me and I don't care if the world wants to tell me I am wrong all I see is people creating problems for themselves by not valuing such things. I strive for them constantly and I think they offer a huge merit to society so I will certainly advertise them.
I'm not a Christian and what I see is you telling the people being treated poorly to act like doormats to the ones treating them poorly based on personal insecurities.

The ones who should be changing are the ones with the personal insecurities treating others poorly. No one should have to bow to them to make them feel better about themselves.
Not act like doormats, but to understand that not everyone sees this world the same way they do. Who are you to say who should be changing, do you rank yourself above others?
Look who's talking, you preach change at one party here. Don't toss that nonsense at me.

I reason it out. I never claimed authority. Though it seems you sure think more of yourself if that's your logic.


They got those insecurities by having others treat them poorly. You seem to be of the notion that insecurities are easy things to get over.
Where did I say that? Oh right, I didn't.

SO logically, if it is so easy for you to get over insecurities then why not let them treat you poorly, you manage any resulting insecurities, they get a confidence boost and can grow socially, it has no lasting effect on your excellent social skills, problem solved. Use excellent social skills to help someone up rather than to just look down on them.
Aside from lying about what I said, there's also the flaw that I owe them nothing.

I don't see the problem. Of course, it could be that pride thing.
A failure to read carefully and not make wild assumptions on your part I think.

Reread this said:
The need to feel superior is a very human one. We like to rank things and we like to be at the top of that ranking. However, it helps if we all understand that these rankings are artificial made entirely by our own mind and that the rest of existence is unconcerned with how we rank things. We too should avoid prescribing to the idea that how humans rank things is the definitive nature of things. Rather we should view the way we rank things as the arbitrary compulsion that it is. Then we can stop having console wars and attacking people for not giving a game an additional .5 in its score. More importantly, we can stop thinking some people are worth more than others. Including the thought that we are more important than others.
The thing is, treating people as equals to me does not mean that their actions can't alter how they should be treated. A murderer shouldn't be treated the same as an innocent, for example. At least insofar as they should be punished and they need to cease their behavior.

Similarly, person A being a jerk to person B for no good reason should quit being a jerk. B should not be expected to show sympathy to A first. A should just quit it.
In other words "It's not fair". These guys didn't commit murder. They snapped socially at worst or said something dumb at best. It may be hard for you to relate to that but sometimes we do things we don't even approve of ourselves.
It's not murder, so what? Comparison stands. Analogies don't need to be the exact literal same thing, that is now how they work and I shouldn't need to explain that.

By all means don't just act as if it is ok to be treated poorly but don't act like a jerk in response. Which is the behavior I most commonly see. It has even been the behavior I have exhibited before. I try not to, but being able to forgive someone without demanding they request it is truly admirable.
I simply find it foolish to forgive someone who shows no remorse or understanding of how they were wrong. It means they have no reason to correct themsevles and will likely repeat it again.

The idea that people come in to abuse it seems like utter nonsense. It is just creating an enemy with an unrealistic motive.

Your help is asking them to kowtow to the first aggressor.
Not everyone sees things the same way.
What a vague non-response.
 

Bat Vader

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chadachada123 said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
Bat Vader said:
See, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said how difficult it is to have this kind of discussion. Both of you and I have very different understandings/definitions for several parts of this, such that you're (likely unintentionally) strawmanning my arguments; arguing against a completely hyperbolic version.

Nowhere did I excuse acting like an ass, and nowhere did I say to treat new fans with distrust. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but it's the "making a display of" your interest in nerdy/uncool shit that is suspicious as fuck.

Perhaps neither of you have ever been actually bullied before, but a common method is to pretend to be interested in someone's hobby, and then later make fun of them for it. It's not very fun, and makes it quite difficult to trust others that are exceedingly interested in your interests. It's particularly brutal when it's a popular girl that abuses a guy in this fashion. Carrying some of this suspicion into adulthood isn't illogical (or at least, unreasonable) in the slightest.

You wouldn't blame an abuse victim for being suspicious of someone being overly nice to them, and bullying isn't a whole lot different.

But again, it's pretty clear that you both have a completely different understanding from me as to what a "fake geek" is, what they act like, how often people get accused of such in public, how often it happens online, all of this, such that arguing is meaningless.

Of course accusing regular gamers, male or female, of being fake is stupid, but that in no way means that the witch hunt didn't start because of real hipsters fitting the stereotype to a T.
I was bullied from Kindergarten-12th grade. I just never let that shit get to me and if someone expressed interest in something I liked I would talk with them about it. If they acted like a dick that was on them, not anyone else that expressed interest in it. Letting that shit get to you isn't healthy and making you wary of others isn't fair to you or the others your wary of. If I had been wary of people that liked the same things I liked I would never have made the great friends that I have made. Bullying sucks but it's up to you whether you want to let it get to you or not.

I was bullied by a popular girl in my Sophomore year of high-school. I'd just call her a **** a move on. She'd get offended and I would just continue on with my day.
 

Fox12

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Phasmal said:
I know there are other posts directed at me in this thread but I literally just woke up.

Bat Vader said:
That's just stupid people being stupid. Someone asking someone else if they are a fan of Fallout when that person is at a Fallout 4 midnight launch is stupid, plain and simple.
It sure was stupid. My friend was picking up a pre-order, wearing a Fallout shirt, a Brotherhood of Steel hoodie and had painted her nails to match her hoodie, and we had to queue for like 10 minutes just to get in the store. (I didn't get asked because I sent my boyfriend up to collect my Pip-Boy Edition, I was paranoid about getting mugged). It was pretty easy to see what separated my dear friend from the majority of the people there.
(And no, dude wasn't joking).

Now I'm not saying dude should be strung up for having a bit of verbal diarrhoea, just that some people should not be confused by ladies buyin' games in the first place. (I'm still mad at Mr. Oh-this-playstation-is-for-boyfriend-then, like dude I love him but I don't love him that much I'm not his sugar mama).
To be fair, I work retail, and every once in a while you're going to say something stupid. You're expected to be polite and talk with every customer. Eventually you're going to put your foot in your mouth. It's just inevitable. I bought a copy of Lord of the Rings at a bookstore once, and the nice old lady at the counter took a quick look at the cover, and started talking about how much she loved science fiction. I just grinned and shook my head. Lord knows I've done it too.

Not much excuse for the boyfriend thing, though : P
 

Something Amyss

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Zenja said:
Maybe everyone could use a dose of empathy and not just one side?
Howabout actually preaching that? Or actually acting like you believe it? You've spent a lot of time in this thread railing against things I actually enjoy because they don't meet your standards of nerddom (I just bought Rock Band 4. Do you know why I first bought a Guitar Hero game? Because I'm a massive music nerd and wanted to support Harmonix, whose members include people from bands like Tribe and Din. And those games are fun, buy yourself or with friends). Have I said anything about your hobbies? Has any other girl in the thread? Has anyone in here who disagrees with you on nerd culture?



Maybe both sides are at fault.
How, exactly, am I at fault for people insisting I can't build a computer? Or hook up a home theater system or wire speakers?

What party do I actually play in being told to make someone a sammich or getting told to GTFO because I logged on with a female username, profile pic or character? Where does the fault lie when my options are drop my voice two octaves to not sound "like a girl" or just not mic up? How am I at fault for unsolicited dick pics?

Why do these problems go away if I use a male username and speak in a way that's physically uncomfortable? If I bear some responsibility, why is it only when I present as a girl that it's a problem? What, particularly, is Amy doing that "Totally Not Amy" isn't?

Maybe you aren't an innocent victim but yet another casualty of that black and white warfare?
Or maybe you've literally just defined victim blaming.

The very idea that any and every girl is part of a "war" should be absurd right off. But on top of that,t he notion that we hold any responsibility to shoulder blame for actions taken against us is just....

I didn't assume only straight sales
You did in the only part I care about. You made a factually incorrect statement about the readership levels. I don't really care about your weaboo assertions.

Yes but when other joined in before, we celebrated the existance of the 70s movies. We didnt demand Luke Skywalker be made a woman or that Darth Vader be made a black man in the sequel. We were fans of what it was, not what we wanted it to be. We accpeted the culture for what it was, not what we wanted it to be. There is political warfare going on inside this culture today telling people that they arent socially acceptable enough to be considered nerds/geeks.
Unlike Star Trek, which had political messages and which lost whole affiliates for them. Or that interracial kiss which lost them a good chunk of the South. Yeah, nerd culture sure never demanded things before. Should I bring up the campaign when Spock died? The demands to kill off the second Robin? The outrage that was the new versions of Star Wars and the prequels, which had nothing to do with women or blacks?

Nerd outrage has been a thing longer than we've been alive. It seems the only problem is now that it's not confined to whites and males.
No that's because the term gamer girl was drug through the mud at the hieght of the whole sexist gaming thing and people refused to hear any other reasoning beyond "sexism". That mentality still exists today believe it or not.
That's retroactive reasoning, and in no way true. Suspicion of women has outstripped any sort of cultural attitude towards male fakes since the 80s.

We have a history of talking about the Ghostbusters movie and that's it.
Untrue, though you've managed to insert it into more than one conversation when I said nothing about it.

In every case online as it is so impersonal, you should assume the worst case scenario as it being from someone so outcast that they have zero social skill. As such I am offering the notion to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Well, OTHER people. You assume that I am complicit in my own harassment and ask me to shoulder the blame for it.

Neither Phasmal nor I have got the benefit of the doubt from you. Again, you keep preaching that "both sides" should offer empathy, but provide it to only one side. And state that one side should be offering it.

I have severe social anxiety. I am nerdy and awkward and insecure. I get so stressed around people I periodically throw up from stress. Combine that with PTSD. I kind of have a tendency to want to isolate myself. Being attacked by nerds online for a female username, or for daring to play "their" game, or being accused of being an outsider doesn't help. But you're not affording me empathy. You're not preaching that people like me be understood. You're telling me to read other people's posts and insisting I'm not a victim and that I should shoulder responsibility for my own harassment.

This sets up a standard that its okay for nerd guys to behave badly, and does so in what I would think is a horribly demeaning and insulting way. More importantly , it puts the entirety of the burden on me. I have to handle abuse and antipathy with perfect aplomb, while the nerd boys get to be nasty and hide behind fragility. I always have to be the adult. They don't. I have to have social skills. They don't. I have to have thick skin. They don't.

How on Earth do you think this is "both sides" having a part?

Also, I am not asking for empathy for myself.
Well, except you used the term empathy, for people in this community, and used yourself as an example.

Being diplomatic hasn't got us anywhere. Because it allows the community to not change by virtue of "assume they have zero social skills." Your solution outright requires us to be permissive. And any criticism, any talking point, no matter how mild, is treated as an act of war. You've used the word yourself multiple times in this post. This is war to you.

The problem is, it isn't for me.

You call it black and white, yet that is extremely black and white.

I just want the right to fucking exist and enjoy my own hobbies. Somehow, this makes me culpable in my own harassment. I want the same respect you have demanded for others, for being a 30+ year veteran of nerd hobbies. And anyone who truly believes that "both sides" are at issue would respect that. But that's the problem. "Both sides" implies there are two and only two parties, in this case "us" and "them." You have othered me, lumped me into this camp of people who would hypothetically demand Darth Vader be black.

You prominently stated you are a Christian. I remember someone in the Bible saying that one should remove the beam from one's own eye before addressing the mote in their neighbour's.
Fair enough. But you will find that demanding respect rarely works. That is precisely why you can't stand them if I am not mistaken.
You are mistaken. The problem that I stated here was that I had people ten or fifteen years younger than me demanding I recognise that they were "here first," as you put it, even though they were not, while not affording me the same token. More importantly, I do not use my status as being older and quite possibly geekier than them to diminish them or claim they are fakes.

When I find someone is a Doctor Who fan, I don't start grilling them on the nuances of regeneration through the years. I am happy to share my interest with someone, even if their first season was the latest season (or series, if you want to be particular). I really don't give a crap whether someone cut their teeth on Amazing Fantasy 15 or Civil War, though admittedly, there's a lot less to talk about with the latter. I don't care whether someone has been playing D&D since its Chainmail roots or if 5E was their first dungeon crawl, and I really don't care which bathroom they use while playing it.

And since I brought up Stan Lee, he's attributed with the saying that every comic is someone's first. To dismiss outright people who are newer than you, or for not being passionate about the same things, strikes me as hypocritical. I was not alive when OD&D dropped, or when Doctor Who first came out. There are people older than me and younger than me and that's fine.

But when someone in high school tells me I'm a Johnny-Come-Lately, or when they insist I'm not really into video games? Why does he get to make his claim to geekdom, while mine is invalid?

There's a double standard being preached. That's what I despise. "I'm a true geek because I've been doing X for fifteen years!" Well, for a lot of things, I've been doing it twice as long.

You're right. Sympathy costs nothing. So when do we stop being dehumanised as the other side of a war and start getting some?
 

tacotrainwreck

New member
Sep 15, 2011
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It's interesting to see how nerd/geek culture has changed over the years from and obsession with hobbies and a need to understand how the things around you work to a person who consumes a lot of media. That's all I got.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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Phasmal said:
It sure was stupid. My friend was picking up a pre-order, wearing a Fallout shirt, a Brotherhood of Steel hoodie and had painted her nails to match her hoodie, and we had to queue for like 10 minutes just to get in the store. (I didn't get asked because I sent my boyfriend up to collect my Pip-Boy Edition, I was paranoid about getting mugged). It was pretty easy to see what separated my dear friend from the majority of the people there.
(And no, dude wasn't joking).
Girlfriend had a similar thing happen to her, Bethesda game as well. We were at the Skyrim pre-order, waiting in line outside. They were letting in groups of people at once, when they get to our group, they let everyone in except they decided to stop my girlfriend and the guy says apologetically "Sorry, there's not much room in the store, it's fine if you want to hang out here, but you'll have to wait outside." Blank stare. He continued, "If you're not going to buy the game, you can't go inside." She literally did nothing to indicate she wasn't interested in buying the game besides being a girl wearing a dress.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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Zenja said:
Really? You have been in nerd culture for over 10 years and you can't notice a change in it today along the lines of a popularity contest? Even with Youtube celebrities becoming what they are just off of playing video games? Everyone else, is "everyone else". Suddenly comics and gaming is a multi BILLION dollar industry not a $100 million one. Nerd culture is invading everything from Hollywood - who as I said before couldnt get a spiderman movie off the ground 25 years ago and in that 25 years we suddenly have rebooted him twice having 3 renditions spanning 6 movies - to social media with facebook investing in Rift. You don't see any change? I don't believe you.
Don't believe me all you like. It's not that I don't see things becoming more mainstream and more popular, I do. That certainly happened. I just don't know what you mean by popularity contest. It's not a contest. Things get more popular. It happens. You keep saying 'popularity contest' like its some bad thing and I don't know what you mean.


Zenja said:
You are putting your insecurities on others when you freak out about a guy asking your friend about Fallout when she is wearing a Fallout shirt. You ever see Bill Engvall's standup? He takes his car with a flat tire to the service station and the mechanic there looks at the tire, then looks at Bill and asks "Tire go flat?" Uhaul truck is in his driveway and they are loading boxes onto the truck. Neighbor comes up and asks "Are you moving?" Pulls his boat in from the lake and pulls out the line with a bunch of Bass on it. A guy on the docks yells to them "Hey, you guys catch all them fish?"

We have established that this is a community with some in it who aren't exactly social elites. I am sure the guy behind the counter either was making small talk to get through the midnight release and asked many people many stupid questions because of the mentality "ugh, I am at work at midnight and I have to be back in at 11am tomorrow. This sucks, but I need to not be a dick to these customers." Something along those lines. If it was because she was a woman, he may have found her mildly attractive and got flustered, at which point, you can guarantee he called himself an dumbass when she left.
But I didn't freak out about it. I thought it was dumb and me and my friend had a bit of a giggle about it before swapping more stories about times where we've been treated like we must not know what we're doing in game shops. Like I said, I don't think the dude should suffer for it, I just think it's dumb. It's not an insecurity of mine. Just an annoyance.

Zenja said:
Same thing with your playstation for your boyfriend story. Let's first of all agree that men outnumber the women when it comes to console gaming. 95% of the time I go to gamestop any girl there is usually there with a guy who seems to be the one leading her around as he shops, or a mom either asking questions or following her kid. I only say 95% and not 100% because I know I have seen a girl shopping in there by herself at some time but I honestly can't recall it. As such it isn't THAT much of a stretch and probably a fair guess considering the statistics of his store that you were purchasing a big gift for someone. Additionally, he may have been subtely checking to see if you were single hoping for "I don't have a boyfriend".
Well, I don't think it was that he was checking if I had a boyfriend, seeing as my boyfriend was with me at the time. I was practically jumping up and down at getting my playstation, and I was the one paying for it. Boyfriend was just standing there with a blank face (I love the guy but he's not particularly expressive).


Zenja said:
So you actually are indeed pushing your insecurities off on others. That's why I called it baggage. We can't help but thrust it at people because we don't even know we are doing it most of the time and even if you are aware it isn't like you could just suddenly stop if you wanted to. So yes, the rest of us have to carry that baggage that you have to make sure that anything anyone says to you could be interpreted as sexist, including "You like Fallout?" as simple small talk. We have to assume you don't buy gifts for people and that the safest route is to generally stay out of your business or something minor we say could be seen as hostile instead of friendly small talk. That is baggage we have to carry and not let it upset us even though it is tremendously unfair to males. Like me wanting to snap at a girl cashier for asking me if I like fallout when I am buying it in a fallout shirt.
I think you're getting mixed signals here. What I am trying to portray is a very tired 'This is dumb and shouldn't happen as much as it does' and what you seem to be getting is an upset 'Men are horrible and they upset me'. I do not consider dudes saying dumb things to be my baggage, nor do I walk around all day being upset at dudes. And neither me or my friend wanted to snap at the guy who said the Fallout thing, she says if she had been prepared for it she would have said 'No, I hate Fallout'. Which I'm sure everyone would have gotten a giggle out of.

Zenja said:
No harm was done, I don't see it as a big deal. I would either have ignored it or said something about focusing on the game. Either way, I would have downplayed it. This is a great example that you are in a culture of people with less than great communication skills and even worse people skills. Treating them like vile Krags isnt going to make them better at dealing with people. It will probably make them feel even more like "you can't be too careful". Making people walk on eggshells is not going to improve communication skills, nor is ignoring any eggshells for that matter.
I didn't see it as a particularly big deal, I just thought it was dumb, so I said 'Yeah guys- watch out for me' and made spooky noises. My friends laughed, and dude got embarrassed and left. I didn't expect that but I can't say I was bothered.

Maybe that's going to make him more wary of women in future. Maybe it'll make him more wary of saying stupid things in the future. I don't know. I'm not his therapist, it's not my responsibility to shelter his feelings. If a person is prepared to say dumb things to women, they are gonna have to deal with women saying things back to them.

EDIT: And if you're suggesting to me that the only way to have 'empathy' for these people is to ignore and not talk about their behaviour, well that's the same old disappointing 'stop talking about it argument'.
 

Jux

Donald Trump is a racist
Sep 2, 2012
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StatusNil said:
Jux said:
The saying is 'hoisted by ones own petard', which... doesn't really apply here. I haven't had anything blow up in my face fortunately, as the 'social justice community', if such a thing exists, is leagues less toxic than nerd culture.
I'm merely suggesting that the "toxic" reputation that you're worried about getting tainted by is something that you yourself are promulgating by your own statements on the subject, which might not be as definitive as you clearly think.
Recognizing toxicity in a subculture is hardly the same as spreading it, anymore than acknowledging racism is still a problem makes racism more of a problem. Denial may make for good appearances, but it doesn't fix anything.

Supernova1138 said:
Jux said:
StatusNil said:
Jux said:
When I was a kid, I didn't tell others about my nerdy hobbies because it wasn't cool (and my self esteem sucked pretty bad). Now I don't tell people about my nerdy hobbies because I'd rather not be tainted with the association of the toxic communities.
Plus ca change, eh?

Of course, now you're the "Social Justice Bard", and you're one of singers of the Ballad of Toxic Communities. Talk about "hoist by your own canard".
The saying is 'hoisted by ones own petard', which... doesn't really apply here. I haven't had anything blow up in my face fortunately, as the 'social justice community', if such a thing exists, is leagues less toxic than nerd culture.
Oh come on, Social Justice is at least as toxic as you would claim nerd culture to be, possibly more so because they believe that their sketchy actions are morally justified as they will supposedly help women and minorities. As MovieBob infamously tweeted "There are no bad tactics, only bad targets." Social Justice is ironically very exclusionary if you do not toe a very specific line, and move with that line in lockstep when it changes.

Social Justice brooks no disagreement, anyone who questions any of it will be labelled as a misogynist, homophobe, transphobe, or racist, and will be ostracized and bullied. There is a good chance that anyone accused of the above will get doxxed or get their employers called in an attempt to get the accused fired, and that is just for disagreeing with Social Justice points, not for spewing hatred at women or minorities. This is doubly true if you are a straight white man as according to Social Justice, you are part of an oppressor class, and any hatred or action taken against you is entirely justified as white men are responsible for historical injustices that need to be repaid in full.
I dunno, I disagree with others in the social justice movement all the time, I can't ever remember being labeled any of those things just for disagreeing with someone. Of course, I wasn't being any of those things either, so maybe that had something to do with it. If you want to talk about the problems you see with the social justice movement, dial back the hyperbole first.