You're Favorite Heel/Face Turns

happyninja42

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I was just randomly having thoughts, as you do, and thought about a character that I really enjoyed, mostly for how his transition from bad guy, to good guy was handled.

The show was an old Sci Fi one from the 90s, called First Wave. Not the best of shows, but I enjoyed the villain turned ally they presented in the show.

Short synopsis:

Protagonist is a scam/con artist salesman/thief, who starts having crazy visions of horrible things in his everyday life. He thinks he's going crazy, turns out he's actually being experimented on by an advanced component of an alien invasion force from elsewhere in the galaxy. He's subject....117 I think? Basically the 117th person they tested. The point of the test is to determine how much of a threat humans would pose to the aliens if they did a full invasion. He proceeds to shake off the mental manipulation, and thwart alien attempts at human conquest through deception, episode after episode. The weekly setup was pretty "alien conspiracy of the week", and he would go to a new town, encounter another alien corruption job (because they look just like humans), and stops it.

The aliens eventually send a Hunter to kill 117, and thus the semi-main villain/lancer of the badguys is introduced. He proceeds to hunt 117, always one step behind, never catching him directly, but coming close enough to be a threat, and also seeing the things his people are doing. He begins to be presented as something of a conflicted character, as he doesn't seem entirely on board with the methodology of his people's various plans for conquest. But he's still a loyal servant of the empire, so he will do his duty.

And then a season+ of this goes on, and he sees 117 constantly overcoming their plans. He starts to present his findings that he thinks the aliens maybe shouldn't try and conquer Earth, that it might destroy them. The various aliens in power, scoff at the idea, dismissing 117 as "just one human."

And this is where, at least for the rationale of the Hunter, that made me love this turn. He basically turns their own test against them and says. "You did that test to determine how much of a threat humans would be. 117 has consistently overcome every obstacle and attempt at his life, AND destroyed countless projects that took years to put in place. There are over 6 BILLION people on this planet. What if every 1/117 humans is like him? They will fucking WRECK us. I don't want to see the empire I love, be destroyed because you all are too arrogant to see the danger." They further scoff him, and he eventually just says "ok fuck it....I truly believe that trying to conquer this planet will destroy my people, as it will use up too many resources and make us destroy ourselves. So I'm going to HELP 117 stop the invasion. Not because I LIKE him, but because I love my people, and don't want them to commit species suicide via human assistance."

And thus, he joins the good guys. At first it's a reluctant kind of ally, but I seem to recall by the end, he starts to really like humans. But at first at least, that was his reason, and I enjoyed it.

What kind of Heel/Face turns do you love?
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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The Prison Break series had a few good'ns throughout its runtime.

And

Erm

*Ahem*

...

The Last Jedi

*runs away from internet*
 
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happyninja42

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The Last Jedi

*runs away from internet*
I'm not sure which character you are referring to? I'm genuinely curious, assuming you are serious with someone from that film having a Heel/Face turn you really enjoyed.

If you're just tossing that name out and running away like dropping a stink bomb in a room to be a turd, then politely Eff Off you banjo playing bear!! *disclaimer* I actually like Last Jedi, so my comparison of it to a stink bomb is not a reflection on the film itself, just the act of tossing that name with all it's baggage and then running away, and i HATE that that internet has made it where I have to fucking make disclaimers like this just to TRY (and probably fail) to curtail an argument about the film itself, seriously fuck the internet and insane fandom for what it's done to it!! *shakes angry ninja fist at the serious of tubes that make up the interwebs*

For real though, who had the turn you liked?

Zuko, in ATLA.
Yes, his was VERY well done. Probably the most realized and thought out turn in recent history to my mind, in modern entertainment. They did it right, and took their time with it, to give it the depth and nuance it needed to be believable.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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I'm not sure which character you are referring to? I'm genuinely curious, assuming you are serious with someone from that film having a Heel/Face turn you really enjoyed.

If you're just tossing that name out and running away like dropping a stink bomb in a room to be a turd, then politely Eff Off you banjo playing bear!! *disclaimer* I actually like Last Jedi, so my comparison of it to a stink bomb is not a reflection on the film itself, just the act of tossing that name with all it's baggage and then running away, and i HATE that that internet has made it where I have to fucking make disclaimers like this just to TRY (and probably fail) to curtail an argument about the film itself, seriously fuck the internet and insane fandom for what it's done to it!! *shakes angry ninja fist at the serious of tubes that make up the interwebs*

For real though, who had the turn you liked?
Oh, I was being mostly serious, just i get anxiety with a lot of things and talking about that film seems a quick way to make enemies without even trying. I like the throne room scene, the two main characters and their chemistry are great and Adam Driver is a lovely actor perfect for the role and especially that moment.
 

Hawki

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So there's no shortage of this trope in fiction, but if I had to choose the best of the best, they'd include:

-Zuko (Avatar; for obvious reasons)

-Bialar Crais (Frascape; while Scorpius is the better antagonist, Crais does have an interesting character arc, while Scorpius does remain an antagonist, albeit a morally grey one. It's an interesting case of a character starting off as the de facto antagonist, and by the end of his arc, not exactly being a 'good guy,' but being a person who knows he's done terrible things, but wants to do a good thing, because it's what good people do, even if he isn't a good person himself. Also I'm not including Aeryn because despite coming onto Moya against her will, she was never a 'bad guy,' so to speak)

-The Operative (Firefly; doesn't exactly become a 'good guy, (the comics notwithstanding), but his arc is well done)

-Thel 'Vadam (Halo; this is a bit of a stretch as to whether it counts as "greatest," but I'm including it because it does work in the sense that by the end of things, he and John have gone from sworn enemies, to having some level of mutal respect, to Thel considering John a genuine friend, so, yeah, I'll include it)

-Severus Snape (Harry Potter; again, you probably all know his character arc at this point)

-Rashek (Mistborn; this is very much a stretch, because it's not a case of Rashek starting off evil and becoming good, but rather being revealed to be more than what we thought. Like, at the start of the series, he's a tyrant, while by the end, post all the revelations, he's revealed to be a very sympathetic character)

-Starlight Glimmer/Sunset Shimmer/Discord (My Little Pony; one of them gets the prize, dunno which one. I mean, this is a series where forgiving enemies is more common than defeating them, though at least these three have to work for their redemption)

-Darth Vader (Star Wars; again, obvious reasons)

So, yeah. I can nominate others, but these tend to rise above the rest.

Now if we're talking about "heroes who became villains," that's an interesting list as well.
 
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happyninja42

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-Bialar Crais (Frascape; while Scorpius is the better antagonist, Crais does have an interesting character arc, while Scorpius does remain an antagonist, albeit a morally grey one. It's an interesting case of a character starting off as the de facto antagonist, and by the end of his arc, not exactly being a 'good guy,' but being a person who knows he's done terrible things, but wants to do a good thing, because it's what good people do, even if he isn't a good person himself. Also I'm not including Aeryn because despite coming onto Moya against her will, she was never a 'bad guy,' so to speak)
OOOH! Yes I forgot about him!! That show was way better than I think it gets credit for. But yeah, his arc was very fun and enjoyable to watch.
 

happyninja42

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Oh, I was being mostly serious, just i get anxiety with a lot of things and talking about that film seems a quick way to make enemies without even trying. I like the throne room scene, the two main characters and their chemistry are great and Adam Driver is a lovely actor perfect for the role and especially that moment.
I agree it's a good scene, one of my favorite in the film, mostly for a very subtle bit of background stuff that most people miss. But I'm not sure how it's a Heel/Face turn? I mean, he was already a bad guy, and just went more bad in that film.
 

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Hiei (Yu Yu Hakusho) - His is gradual and believable. And even then, there are parts of his rough personality that sticks with him.

Ren Tao (Shaman King) - While believable, even as a kid, I already knew that Ren would be on the good guys side before the halfway point in the series. Ren & Hiei are actually better Vegetas' than the Saiyan Prince himself.

Pacifica Northwest (Gravity Falls) - I never thought I see the day where they give the 1 dimensional Alpha-b{i}tch character growth and depth. Though there were early hints of this with Pacifica's descriptions of her home life. She wound up being one of my favorite characters in the show. I actually like Pacifica more than Mabel. Mabel's main problem was that she could be just as selfish (even more so than Pacifica), but the show, nor characters rarely call her out on it. The comics that take place after the finale fix this, and add even more character depth to Pacifica on the comic that focuses on her.

Zuko - Nothing else needs to be said. Still considered the best.
 
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Trunkage

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G’Kar - Babylon 5. Holy crap. I cannot underline the transformation this character goes through enough. Usually a self centred, Obstructive for the sake of being obstructive, devious, destructive, vengeful and callous in the first season turns into one of the most important heroes in the story.

If we’re doing Crais, I’d add Talyn aspart of that mix. It was the two together.Zuko, Snape

Scar from FMA. Although you might just call this misunderstood. Maybe a whole bunch of people in Dragonball.
 
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Gordon_4

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G’Kar - Babylon 5. Holy crap. I cannot underline the transformation this character goes through enough. Usually a self centred, Obstructive for the sake of being obstructive, devious, destructive, vengeful and callous in the first season turns into one of the most important heroes in the story.

If we’re doing Crais, I’d add Talyn aspart of that mix. It was the two together.Zuko, Snape

Scar from FMA. Although you might just call this misunderstood. Maybe a whole bunch of people in Dragonball.
I think I’d weirdly include Londo with G’Kar since they both eventually get their shit together but G’Kar quicker and more resolutely than Londo.

And I think there’s something to be said about Neroon’s lesser but no less sincere turn.

Jade and Femur from Shadow Raiders also had interesting arcs along these lines, although neither are strictly villains.
 
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Hawki

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On the subject of B5, I think the arcs of G'Kar and Londo can't really be separated from one another. Though on the other hand, neither of them were really villains. Both are in service to their governments who, by the time of the show, are in a state of tit-for-tat.

As for Talyn and Crais, I don't think Talyn can be said to have an arc, or even really a character. Like, there's some regret with Talyn (where he destroys an innocent ship, IIRC), but Crais's arc can be separated from Talyn's. I mean, Crais was introduced in the pilot episode, while Talyn came into things in season 2.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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I agree it's a good scene, one of my favorite in the film, mostly for a very subtle bit of background stuff that most people miss. But I'm not sure how it's a Heel/Face turn? I mean, he was already a bad guy, and just went more bad in that film.
Well, it's more like a double heel turn leap to land in a different place, instead of returning to plain previous bad, as it changes the dynamic between them and everything else. It's the most recent example that stuck in my mind anyway.

To add to other examples, quite liked the slow descent into villainy for Walter in Breaking Bad, while his brother-in-law had a kind of opposite arc. Better Call Saul has somethings going on with the guy who played Vaas in Far Cry 3 too, am seeing where that's going though as it's not finished yet.
 

Kyrian007

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I think I’d weirdly include Londo with G’Kar since they both eventually get their shit together but G’Kar quicker and more resolutely than Londo.

And I think there’s something to be said about Neroon’s lesser but no less sincere turn.
Yeah, Londo and G'Kar's reversals of fortune was great viewing. And Neroon… I had a feeling right from his appearance there would be more to him than just a standard villain or obstacle, with Minbari that's usually a safe bet. They share that trait with the Vorlons, and there's another heel turn. I just wish they had paced that heel turn a little slower like they did with the Earth government heel turn. The other heel turn I can think of in B5 is Talia, and that was far too abrupt for my taste. She was too interesting a character to go out so suddenly. However that added to Bester's menace nicely so it wasn't a complete waste.

Other good heel turns... Fallen. A surprisingly star-studded mostly forgotten Denzel Washington movie from 1998. It is a demonic possession focused movie so there are plenty of "heel turns." But, the one right before the final confrontation... ultra-wow. Absolute Show Stopper. The movie as a whole is ok... its fine. But that 20 seconds of a heel turn is movie perfection. I won't even say which character or actor it is, it is too good to spoil even if you never plan on watching the movie.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Other good heel turns... Fallen. A surprisingly star-studded mostly forgotten Denzel Washington movie from 1998. It is a demonic possession focused movie so there are plenty of "heel turns." But, the one right before the final confrontation... ultra-wow. Absolute Show Stopper. The movie as a whole is ok... its fine. But that 20 seconds of a heel turn is movie perfection. I won't even say which character or actor it is, it is too good to spoil even if you never plan on watching the movie.
Omg I love that film, but couldn't remember the title till you brought it up! The ending really is quite something. Denzel is always top form whatever he's in.
 

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Scar from FMA. Although you might just call this misunderstood.
Scar is a well done grey-shaded character, but he still counts. There is no misunderstanding about it. He was a guy that wanted revenge and killed state alchemists regardless if they were in the war or not. He was a death seeker that killed in the name of God. The 03 version does not even get a full heel face turn. That version only helped the brothers out for his own goals. The 03 version does save Alphonse from blowing up, but turning him in to a philosopher stone doubled as a screw you to the homonculi and the Amerstrian military. The manga/Brotherhood version has legit heel face turn, and actually helps to stop the conspiracy.
 
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happyninja42

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I mean I loved Loki and Nebula's turn to if not good people, at least anti-heroes.
I would say Nebula genuinely turned good. She wasn't evil so much as just broken and hurt from her sister. Once that was resolved somewhat, she became far more empathetic. And no longer being forced to be a hatchetwoman for a galactic genocidal maniac, and being able to live how she chose, did wonders for her demeanor.
 

SilentPony

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I would say Nebula genuinely turned good. She wasn't evil so much as just broken and hurt from her sister. Once that was resolved somewhat, she became far more empathetic. And no longer being forced to be a hatchetwoman for a galactic genocidal maniac, and being able to live how she chose, did wonders for her demeanor.
That's true. She was legit a member of the Avengers by the end. I really hope she keeps going as a character and they get rid of her death flags