True, the discussion is going nowhere. However be careful about who you label a "Xenophobe". My problem with Muslims is not out of inherant fear of their differance, it's because of a conflict that has been going on for decades and continuously getting worse. Hijacking, plane bombings, the whole Iran hostage crisis, the abduction of tourists, and then of course 9/11. During this time we've tried diplomacy, and trying to trust and build up regional powers to deal with the area to avoid invading. Indeed our backing of Saddam before he sold out to the Russians was to try and counterbalance Iran so we wouldn't have to invade.thepyrethatburns said:And this is why you need to get outside of the U.S.Therumancer said:Anti-US sentiment is based on the US being the dominant world power, pure and simple. There is nothing more to it than that. This combined with a genuine lack of fear of the US due to the belief that we will not use our military power efficiently is why people are willing to strike against it with such imputiny.
Ah, the old intellectually bankrupt battlecry of "If you're not with us, you're against us"Therumancer said:I mean I get it, all your comments come down to the fact that you don't like the US.
I really hate giving out personal details over the internet but your ignorant little comment about "pantywaists" needs some perspective.
My father was Army. That's how he met my mother in Germany. He raised military kids. (Go Army) My youngest brother is still in the military as a medic. My immediate to say nothing of extended family (on the U.S. side) has stepped up to do what YOU said you would not even if you could.
What have you ever done for this country?
That's where my arguments come from. Not the idealistic hippie perspective that you attribute to me but from someone who has one foot on both sides of the Atlantic. The basis for my arguments comes from:
a) Not only having family outside this country but having been outside this country and finding out that "Hey. U.S. news media is completely inaccurate when it comes to portraying people outside the U.S.". Thorinair keeps saying that U.S. citizens aren't responsible for the decisions of our politicians to go to war. Do you think that's somehow different in other countries? Travel outside the country (and I KNOW you haven't. Travelling outside the country does not mean you'll take the Daniel Pearl attitude of "We are citizens of the world" but most people, except for the truly psychotic, do not take the "Kill 'em all" attitude that you have displayed once they actually meet people outside the country and see that they're not just targets in a video game but actual people albeit with different languages and customs.) and you'll see that those "Death to America" crowd scenes are cherry-picked by the U.S. media to convince the citizenry that it's "us vs. them". This is not to say that they aren't there. This is not to say that they haven't been growing in intensity due to our actions overseas. But, if you travel overseas, you'll see a world of people that you almost never see in U.S. news media.
And, no, they aren't all jealous of us. You'd be surprised at how many would live and let live if we didn't stick our nose in everything.
b) my concern for U.S. soldiers. Yes, you could say that I'm biased because I don't want my little brother to get a leg blown off by an IED just because Congress isn't willing to admit that Afghanistan is a Vietnam-type quagmire. That would be a fair enough argument because, obviously, that does worry me a little. But it goes beyond that. I mean, who do you think you are when you say "I wouldn't serve but I have no trouble advocating putting others in harm's way just to satisfy my irrational fear of Muslims"?
.........
I've honestly tried to talk to you as if you were a rational human being. I've honestly tried to ignore the xenophobia you have displayed against the Muslim world in your posts. I've honestly tried to reason with you as if you weren't one of the people that COD is aimed at and could actually recognize that unwarranted aggression simply turns the rest of the world against us.
I see that was a waste of time. You may think of me as a "pantywaist". Fine. I see you as one of the domestic enemies that they talk about in the military oath of enlistment where a soldier swears to defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. People like you do nothing but advocate policies that are bankrupting our nation, sending thousands of our troops to die in a foreign hellhole, turning every nation on earth up to and including those who are our staunchest allies against us, and then you have the audacity to say "Well, I wouldn't serve even if I could."
If I had way, I would have the military gather, at gunpoint, every "cynical militant" whether they were young/old/male/female/black/white/handicapped/whatever. I would pile them into every C-130 that I could get my hands on. They would be given a gun, one change of clothing, and 5 MREs. Then they would be dropped into Afghanistan with the single directive "None of you are coming home until you can deliver Osama Bin Laden's head." This way, the "cynical militants" would get all the war that they desire....and then some.... and the rest of us would be allowed to pursue a policy of foreign engagement which is not influenced by people who mistake COD for real war.
I have no problem with stomping a nation flat if they attack us. While I understand the purpose behind reconstruction, I would have no problem stomping that same nation flat and letting them rebuild themselves as a warning to the world not to attack us. But I do not support these preemptive brushfire wars that are sold to a public that has been anesthetized by U.S. news media while hopped on Rambo movies and COD games. There is a MAJOR difference between the two.
Frankly, I'm done discussing this with you. Where my perspective is that of the "idealistic pantywaist", your perspective is typical of people who speak up but won't step up. Until you do, you don't have any moral basis to criticize anyone else on how they feel about this country.
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While not directed at me, we are in polite company. There are no flame policies on these forums. Due to my belief in freedom of speech I generally don't report people as matter of princippe, however there ARE policies here about keeping things civil and polite. Even when discussing big issues that get heated, I make an effort to. It's really not that hard if you take a little while to think and cool down before you post.Semi-Human said:LOL great review
Seems some of you have gone and gotten your feelings hurt. XD. Seriously are you really surprised your getting dissed here? Now i don't hate any individual us citizen, most of them are very nice. But as a group you can really be a bunch of assholes. I mean where talking about some major dick moves bye the US, people died. And then you come along and rework history in to paint your self as the good guys instead of the douches you where. Of course your gonna take shit for it.
I mean Imagen if a Japanese company made a game about the "Heroic" attack on pearl Harbor.
Some of you use the word "scapegoat"....bullshit. I mean you invade countries for bullshit reasons, kill innocent people and act likes nothings wrong or even worse that your actually doing a good thing. Even if your own government admits it bullshit you do nothing. Now some of you will go "its not us its the government", true but its YOUR government, and your responsible for it. Besides there usually are enough people there who actually support what the government is doing.
Yeah there are allot of shit countries in the world, but most of them don't glorify there own fuck ups.
let me just say one thing. Saying these are "isolated" incidents is hardly accurate. Its pretty common.Therumancer said:-snip
Really no one criticized them for it? No one criticized europe for its colonial oppression?Thedek said:-snip-
No one demonized Germany or japans after ww2?
So your response to some one criticizing you is hitting them. Good job proving your not the violent douche you where accused of being.
As for no discussing politics, your not in polite company and its probably that "stick your head in the sand" behavior that keeps getting you in these fuck ups.
And you're arguing "War at any price" which is an easy sentiment when you're not one of those on the front lines.Therumancer said:When you get down to it your argueing what amounts to "peace at any price" sentiments. I understand the philsophy, I just happen to disagree with it.
Your position on waging a genocidal war on Muslims (Not Iraqis or the Taliban, just Muslims) could be considered "discriminatory comments" no matter how you justify them.Therumancer said:In the end you are correct that we are out of context with one another, so this discussion is about done. I'm simply responding this last time to ask that if we debate something else in the future that you keep the flames to a minimum, since I consider accusations of racism and/or Xenophobia to be flame material.
This is zero punctuation where talking about, it doesn't get more un-polite then that. Good for you that you try to remain civil, not sure what the point of telling me was but thx any way.Therumancer said:While not directed at me, we are in polite company. There are no flame policies on these forums. Due to my belief in freedom of speech I generally don't report people as matter of princippe, however there ARE policies here about keeping things civil and polite. Even when discussing big issues that get heated, I make an effort to. It's really not that hard if you take a little while to think and cool down before you post.
No you just make sure what ever government is left does exactly what you want them to do (or at least thats the idea). That so much better.said:One thing to consider about the US is that for all the military actions we're involved in, we have not acted to directly conquer, or wipe out, anyone, except for during the World Wars where it was the latter. It's easy to try and draw parallels between conquerers and any nation that engages in offensive military actions, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.
The British had an empire that engaged in wars of conquest, The Japanese wanted ethnic domination of the world.
true, but completely irrelevant for the topic at hand.said:Chances are a conflict between them and Germany would have been inevitable had World War II been successful for them.
actualy the British did, most European colonial powers negotiated to some degree. So your aware of America interfering in the region for the last 30 years, yet your some how surprised when some for of retaliation takes place? You call them acts of war, others use that same label for your actions.said:Neither The British Empire OR The Japanese would have spent decades in negotiation with a culture before getting involved militarily. A lot of people like to act as if the US decided to put on a cowboy hat and go charging into "The Middle East" because of The World Trade Center. Most people don't think the entire matter through, and realize that we've been having issues with the region for well over 30 years. Hijackings, Plane Bombings, Kidnappings, The Iran Hostage Crisis, and other things. Our responses have always been fairly measured even the underhanded ones. Despite numerous acts of war, we've done things like send in Commandos to try and free hostages, and trusted countries like Iraq to try and keep the peace so we wouldn't have to invade militarily to deal with countries like Iran, and risk a Muslim uprising
Ah so your justification is that is could have been really bad. If your think a "maybe or what if" is good enough reason to invade a country theres something wrong with your head. At no point was the US seriously at risk. Yeah 9/11 was horrible but there was no risk of the US collapsing.said:Ultimatly all of these efforts failed. Also due to the general failure of the attack, people tend to think of 9/11 as being The World Trade Center, it also involved an attack on The Pentagon (which succeeded, but didn't destroy the building), and an attempt to get to DC presumably to strike the Capitol Building and/or White House. Had those targets all been destroyed it would have decapitated our goverment and we might not have ever recovered from that. Simply put the violence escalated into an attempt to outright destroy the USA. That's why I advocate such an extreme response.
So your failing because the military is being held back. Ah yes everything would be fine if only you shot more people. Never mind that almost al of the are innocent. Never mind that your murdering more people then any terrorist ever could. Can you honestly show this contempt for human life and still not get it through your thick head why people dislike you, disrespect you or attack you?said:It says a lot that despite everything from the region, we're still involved in trying to win the peace in the region. I can't think of any other nation that would endure all of this, given the amount of firepower we possess, and still hold back to the extent that we are. Hence why I talk about American morality. This massive quagmire we're involved in isn't really a failure of the military, it's the fact that we're not using our military to it's full capacity. We're going in for police actions with infantry, the only thing we used our big guns for so far was to try and scare some people with "shock and awe" and a bit of precisian targeting. That kind of ceased to be a factor once people down there figured out that's all we were going to do about it.
I know thats how you see it. And thats why i have nothing but pity and contempt for you. If you actually had factual support for your arguments or achieved what you set out to do i might be more understanding. Your just accepting the bullshit and propaganda your government feeds you.said:I know you disagree, but that's how I see things.
Everything comes down to perspective, and to be entirely honest we've had pretty good reason for going everywhere we have from a certain point of view. Our failures have been largely based on what we've done when we got there. For all the atrocities we're accused of, notice that the victim nation has always survived in a shape where it can scream about them, not because they truely drove us off, but because we pulled out when it came down to a question between engaging in "Total War" and leaving.
... and see, here is a big part of the problem. You can't engage in discourse without turning to insults. You also seem to be on such an anti-American tirade that you don't even seem to be paying attention. What's more any "proof" that is presented is being dismissed as "propaganda" out of hand, so what's the point of even discussing it?Semi-Human said:]I know thats how you see it. And thats why i have nothing but pity and contempt for you. If you actually had factual support for your arguments or achieved what you set out to do i might be more understanding. Your just accepting the bullshit and propaganda your government feeds you.
yes there have been survivors....so what? Just because you could have done worse, doesn't make what you did now any better. If you think your being a good guy just because you didn't kill every single person then that just shows how depraved that "American morality" of yours truly is.
I can, i just don't feel like it. A little bad language or supporting the murder of innocent people. Lets see if you can figger out which is worse. What i'm calling propaganda are the baseless and unsupported claim you use to justify your behavior. I'm more then happy to consider your proof, but you haven't presented any. Can you say the same thing? I doubt it.Therumancer said:... and see, here is a big part of the problem. You can't engage in discourse without turning to insults. You also seem to be on such an anti-American tirade that you don't even seem to be paying attention. What's more any "proof" that is presented is being dismissed as "propaganda" out of hand, so what's the point of even discussing it?
Ah yes, screw freedom of speech. Lets al just shut up and follow the leader like the did in Nazi germany, the soviet union or china. Seriously this might be one of the most unpatriotic things I've ever heard of. Just because the propaganda has gotten more subtle doesn't mean its not there. What would you call al the false info about WMD's that was presented?said:However, I will say that there isn't really any American propaganda in play for this conflict, and there really hasn't been any since World War II. One of the arguements I make constantly is that the US goverment SHOULD have instituted war powers and engaged in the same kind of information control and propaganda that it did during World War II, however it did not. The anti-war sentiment in the US is, and has been substantial, especially as the conflict drags on without any kind of resolution.
Ah so there is propaganda, well that claim didn't last long. And thats just it, while your propaganda might be about building peace, your actions are not.said:In general, what propaganda there is supports the idea of "winning the peace" and engaging in an ongoing police action, if it's pro-war at all, rather than bringing a swift and decisive end to the conflict.
these things happen ALL the time, al over the world yes for some reason you never mind those. And none of these things is a threat to the US. Lastly you where involved long before that when you (and some other insanely stupid countries) Decided Making Israel was a good idea.said:Yes we have been involved in the region for 30 years or more, however it's been in response to acts of aggression from the region. Involving responses to plane hijackings, bombings, kidnappings, and other crimes. If it wasn't for those incidents there would be no real problem at all. It's a matter of them interfering with us, rather than vice versa.
Some how i'm rather skeptical about how many Muslims you actually know. Or Are you basing what you know about them purely of what you see on tv? In which case yes you would be a racist. Not because your judging them. But because your judging them based on your own bigotry and ignorance. (if that is the case.)said:I argue for targeting the Muslim Culture as a whole because it's a problem with that way of life and system of beliefs. It's not an ethnic issue inherant in being an Arab, or even an issue with Islam which can be practiced outside of that culture. It's possible to be an Islamic quietly enough where unless told nobody would know what religion you are, just like other faiths in the US for example. The problem is the interpetation of Islam and the Muslim culture built around it throughout the region. It's sort of like how during World War II we were after the Nazis, and did what was nessicary to destroy that idealogy, even chasing people down for decades afterwards.
I see no problems with making judgements of a culture based on it's values and behaviors compared to mine, any more than I did when we decided to do the same with the Nazis.
People can argue that I'm a racist, offensive, or whatever, however it's not true. It's good to know I am getting people to at least think about other perspectives on things, which is all that can happen on The Internet to begin with.