Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls 2 - Prepare to Die Again
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
To me Dark Souls is like playing a tabletop game with a spiteful game master. He is constantly trying to kill you, but abides by the dice you roll as well as your intuitiveness, thus making the experience hard, but fair. And the more you play, the more you get to know his patterns and through process, thus allowing you to navigate his world easier as you move along.
Dark souls can be mastered, but it is always unforgiving. Make a stupid mistake and you will pay for it. DS 2 seems a bit easier to get into, but I would say you could play either and you would know whether or not it was for you.
Dark souls can be mastered, but it is always unforgiving. Make a stupid mistake and you will pay for it. DS 2 seems a bit easier to get into, but I would say you could play either and you would know whether or not it was for you.
Oh look someone who knows about all the games I played despite never meeting me in real life, or ever conversing with me in the first place. He/She must have read the list of games that I've played that doesn't exist. I mean, they must have otherwise they might actually be someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.Branindain said:
OH WAIT.
My biggest problem with Dark Souls wasn't the difficulty per say. I can get behind ludicrously challenging games, in fact ever since I tried Dark Souls, I've been putting every game I own on the hardest difficulty as some kind of test of my manliness. Borderlands 2 got really good on Ultimate Vault Hunter mode, where enemies require careful aim and constant slagging to beat. Metal Gear Rising is the best game ever made, and it's pretty difficult on Hard and Very Hard (have not tried Revengence yet. I'm kinda scared of it).remmus said:
No my issue with Dark Souls is and always will be the controls and how it doesn't tell you anything. The controls feel like I'm reversing a golf cart on ice, and combat is sticky and unwieldy. I never feel like I'm fully in control of my dude, who once backflipped off a ledge to his doom at random. Plus the game didn't tell me how to lock on or jump, and theres no pause menu or place I can change the controls. And on top of all of that, the icons for all the gear are meaningless without context or a tutorial. There's hand holding, there's giving leeway to figure shit out, and then there's throwing you out a plane without telling you which cord controls your parachute.
then there's the little aesthetic quibbles; I loved the level design (except the constant instant death cliff can go fuck themselves), but there was little music, and the parts in between bullshit fights and traps were probably the most boring experiences I've ever played. And this is coming from the guy who had no problem with the Citadel bits in Mass Effect 1. Eventually I just put it down, and mailed it back to Gamefly with extreme prejudice.
The game tells you how to use the controls - In the first game it's on floor messages, on the second one it's on stones right in front of your path. It even tells you that you can use a hugely powerful plunging attack to make boss battles easier.
The backflip thing has only ever happened to me once or twice, in both cases it was simply me getting desperate to try to survive - Which is the type of thing the game wants you to avoid, becoming over excited or desperate. The controls are slightly stiff overall, but they're highly responsive - I've played all three versions of the first game and my actions on the controller were never overlooked, it's just a thing of learning how the crawly animations work. - And it's not even a thing of much dedication like it sounds, certainly not like in say Street Fighter where one measly step forward is supposed to mean 5 advantage frames or whatever.
The backflip thing has only ever happened to me once or twice, in both cases it was simply me getting desperate to try to survive - Which is the type of thing the game wants you to avoid, becoming over excited or desperate. The controls are slightly stiff overall, but they're highly responsive - I've played all three versions of the first game and my actions on the controller were never overlooked, it's just a thing of learning how the crawly animations work. - And it's not even a thing of much dedication like it sounds, certainly not like in say Street Fighter where one measly step forward is supposed to mean 5 advantage frames or whatever.
I'm just glad he actually felt he may have pre-judged Demon's Souls too soon a while back in that older review.
According to from software, you should be able to change controls on pc. I can't remember where i read that but it was in one of the comments for the pc version delay.
Some negative things.
As for the UI, I don't really like it. it's not much easier to find the items you are looking for than it was in dark souls 1, I cannot remember if there was a sort option, item box feels easier than bottomless box in dark souls 1. Some stats are difficult to find(for example I have no idea if there exists a visible value for item find/luck and I can't find how much enchantments increase attack on my weapons.) and you can't see your stat bonuses for items without equipping them.
The sound seems to drop when the game is loading areas and the loading might affect receiving inputs a little, not quite sure about that.
As yahtzee said the world feels more gamelike than it did in dark souls 1 and there seems to be less focus on the world and it's history and characters, or they might be better hidden, it just feels thinner with every part getting little less backstory.
While the ai seems improved overall, it also seems to bug out every now and then. few times enemies have just walked to their deaths, one time an npc didn't come through the fog gate for the boss fight at all and two times the same npc walked to her death when i was heading for a boss(different areas though). and few times some bigger enemies have just completely lost my character attacking the air or walking forward when i was right next to them by their side.
The enemy spawning limit is annoying because it's harder to farm for items and easier to miss lore if you're into that. I'm just not a fan of that mechanic in this game.
Two handing your left hand weapon uses left triggers for attacking and right triggers for defense which just feels confusing, this applies to bow as well.
Item drops can fall off the ledges or through small holes pretty easily unlike in dark souls 1 where they stayed with the corpse or in the air.
Some of the equipment upgrade materials seem to be limited.
Some positive things
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-The game is huge compared to the first one, and the areas are still pretty good.
-There is a good variety of enemies and some enemies can really punish you if you try to get behind them for attacks.
-The torch and some of the light mechanics are really interesting.
-Atmosphere feels great.
-You can test the weapon move sets without having the required stats, although they seem to be a little slower and at least some special attacks won't work without proper stats.
-Elemental weapons scale with stats.
-Lot's to explore
-NPC's take few hits before becoming aggressive.
Some mixed stuff.
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The weapon upgrade was simplified and you can cast enchantments on nonstandard weapons(like using great magic weapon spell to a fire longsword)
Hidden paths open by pressing x/A instead of reacting to light or hitting the wall.
Titanites are on short supply at the beginning part of the game.
Some negative things.
As for the UI, I don't really like it. it's not much easier to find the items you are looking for than it was in dark souls 1, I cannot remember if there was a sort option, item box feels easier than bottomless box in dark souls 1. Some stats are difficult to find(for example I have no idea if there exists a visible value for item find/luck and I can't find how much enchantments increase attack on my weapons.) and you can't see your stat bonuses for items without equipping them.
The sound seems to drop when the game is loading areas and the loading might affect receiving inputs a little, not quite sure about that.
As yahtzee said the world feels more gamelike than it did in dark souls 1 and there seems to be less focus on the world and it's history and characters, or they might be better hidden, it just feels thinner with every part getting little less backstory.
While the ai seems improved overall, it also seems to bug out every now and then. few times enemies have just walked to their deaths, one time an npc didn't come through the fog gate for the boss fight at all and two times the same npc walked to her death when i was heading for a boss(different areas though). and few times some bigger enemies have just completely lost my character attacking the air or walking forward when i was right next to them by their side.
The enemy spawning limit is annoying because it's harder to farm for items and easier to miss lore if you're into that. I'm just not a fan of that mechanic in this game.
Two handing your left hand weapon uses left triggers for attacking and right triggers for defense which just feels confusing, this applies to bow as well.
Item drops can fall off the ledges or through small holes pretty easily unlike in dark souls 1 where they stayed with the corpse or in the air.
Some of the equipment upgrade materials seem to be limited.
Some positive things
______________________________________________________
-The game is huge compared to the first one, and the areas are still pretty good.
-There is a good variety of enemies and some enemies can really punish you if you try to get behind them for attacks.
-The torch and some of the light mechanics are really interesting.
-Atmosphere feels great.
-You can test the weapon move sets without having the required stats, although they seem to be a little slower and at least some special attacks won't work without proper stats.
-Elemental weapons scale with stats.
-Lot's to explore
-NPC's take few hits before becoming aggressive.
Some mixed stuff.
______________________________________________________
The weapon upgrade was simplified and you can cast enchantments on nonstandard weapons(like using great magic weapon spell to a fire longsword)
Hidden paths open by pressing x/A instead of reacting to light or hitting the wall.
Titanites are on short supply at the beginning part of the game.
It was kinda disappointing for me as well. Its a good game, the elements are there but it lacks all sharp edges Dark Souls 1 had.
This game is worth it, but Dark Souls 1 is worth more and I might return to play it.
The Pvp meta in Dark Souls 1 is more competitive and the lore is more rich.
This game is worth it, but Dark Souls 1 is worth more and I might return to play it.
The Pvp meta in Dark Souls 1 is more competitive and the lore is more rich.
Well first of all it's not the be-all end-all of games, but it is a damn fine game with well done mechanics you don't see much nowadays. No map or quest markers encourage exploration, scraps of dialogue from few npcs and item descriptions tell you about the world little at a time to make you hungry for more. Unlike many games that encourage exploration there is no cut&paste dungeons, every location is unique. Some are worse than others. It can evoke fear and awe just about every time you get into a new location,even more so if you are holding extra souls. And it tells you volumes about the world with enemy and world design visually, without needing countless exposition dialogues from faceless npcs.Silentpony said:
Second, the game is not for everyone, it can be punishing and confusing by design, which is both a strength and a weakness, it is easy to get lost on some locations first time playing, it is very easy to die without making much progress if you're not careful, and it is difficult to play in short sessions. But it also elevates the atmosphere and makes exploring more rewarding.
But it can be learned, it becomes much easier as you get better at playing it and it is much more interesting time sink than FF13(though this depends on the player a little). FF13 wants to push you in one direction and leaves you very little options, there is a lot of pointless exposition and lore is boring to read(you get a codex entries as the game feels like you could use them, versus the item and enemy placement that both tell you about the characters and world by thinking about what you found and where you found it), quests once you unlock them require much running around hunting for quest marker and it feels like busywork. Dark souls wants you to learn it yourself and explore at your own pace, most of the enemies and such are introduced relatively safely before it ramps up with more difficult situations.
Huntsman's Copse / Licia was the only part that seemed to fit what he was describing, that I could think of as well. There's just one problem with that idea, though. Huntsman's Copse isn't a vital part of the game. It (and the 4 Great Souls) are just an optional side-quest to give you some objective during the first part of the game for you to learn the ropes until you're ready for Drangleic castle.The Dead Singer said:
Was Yahtzee talking about something else, or did he just not do his research on this one?
Can you get to drangleic castle without all of the great souls? i tried with one and two of them but the door told me I need greater souls so I collected all four of them and got to drangleic after that. And one of the great souls is through the huntsman's copse.Manfred said:
Edit: checked the wiki, and it is possible but the ways are not too obvious and while that makes at least some of the great souls kind of optional, it's still the way most players probably get to drangleic
There are two conditions by which the Shrine of Winter will open: Having all 4 Great Souls, or having 1 Million Soul Memory.Zendariel said:
The game doesn't tell you this, and collecting all four great souls is definitely the recommended path; you're pushed to continue exploring. But, even if you don't talk to any of the NPCs, can't seem to beat one of the bosses no matter what you do, or are just blind to one of the branch paths, the Shrine of Winter will eventually open up for you and let you continue into Drangleic Castle, even if you don't know what you did to open it.
Yeah, you would probably need to do some co-op or pvp to reach that number without the huntsman's copse or at least the old sinner(probably the first great soul most players would get) as one way is very difficult to get to without going to huntman's copse and beyond or having really high hp and/or some luck getting one enemy armor, which is blocked by statue that can be removed using an item that you can find after the old sinner, or the way that is difficult to get to without very high hp or some stuff you can't get without having the item or getting to huntman's copse and beyond. There are also some pretty vital things on the huntman's copse route, while not absolute necessities, are still pretty important.Manfred said:
And well, to be honest without playing the whole game, as he mentioned in the review, doing some research online (which if you want to play blind or relay the experience of the game fully is not recommended), and which would pretty easily point you to huntman's copse anyway, or doing a lot of online interaction(yahtzee i think is not known for that) i would assume it would be almost impossible to open shrine of winter before finding huntsman's copse. not completely, but very difficult. even more so with the enemy respawn limits.
I agree. It's not intended to be something most players would do, just a back up route they can take. You might be overestimating how hard it is to accumulate Soul Memory though; bare in mind that it's souls ever acquired, even if you lose souls, it doesn't matter. So while most players would be somewhere around 1 Million after killing all 4 Great Soul bosses anyway, a player who's struggling with the game, or lost and wandering around looking for another path, would be killing more ordinary mobs and accumulating more souls.Zendariel said:
I certainly wouldn't recommend looking up everything online, but Yahtzee certainly seemed to imply that he had himself looked it up on gamefaqs; else why would he be complaining about it?
I'm not saying you should avoid going to Huntman's Copse, or that there isn't some nice stuff to find in there; but an optional side area that is not required to beat the game hardly constitutes a "fucking vital section of the game" as Yahtzee put it. It would be like complaining about not finding the DLC area in DS1. Oolacile is a cool area, and it would be a shame to miss it, but not finding it on your first playthrough doesn't really negatively impact your experience of the game when there's still plenty of other stuff to do.
Just because you can fulfill the alternative condition you're never told about exists doesn't relegate huntsmans corpse to a side area.Manfred said:
It is more likely that something like a "playthrough" will not come to be if you can't find huntsmans corpse.
Wait I got this...Silentpony said:
/puts on magical asshat of conceitedness
It is what it is, I'm afraid DS just can't help being that awesome. Obviously the bigger something gets, the more hate it'll generate from the naysayers. But... look at it this way... Yahtzee was one, and now he isn't. So riddle me that.
And I maintain Yatzhee had gone soft. Yatzhee from two years ago would have eviscerated this game, comparing it to those God awful early NES and SNES games and their arcade-milk-you-for-quarters gameplay. You know, the ones that nostalgia blinded games mistake as good when really they were just old. Hell, why not go play Milon's Secret Castle if the idea of an obtuse game is so thrilling.Nomanslander said:It is what it is, I'm afraid DS just can't help being that awesome. Obviously the bigger something gets, the more hate it'll generate from the naysayers. But... look at it this way... Yahtzee was one, and now he isn't. So riddle me that.Silentpony said:
This is just like when he reviewed Gears of War 2, said it was good then a year or so later played an actual good game and had to concede the point he was simply starved on quality and mistook the urine shining off of GoW2 as gold. Something similar will happen to these Dark Souls games. Everyone(Yatzhee included) is simply too used to hold-you-hand CoD games, so anything even remotely different is seen as the second coming of Christ. And when all the hysteria calms down, people will admit the gameplay/story/setting/characters/enemies weren't all that good. And I will ask "Then what IS good?" and no one will have an answer.
And then a Sonic game will come out.
Yeah, that whole "Yahtzee is now one of US" spiel was just a blatantly crude attempt to make a half-ass argument to see if you'd bite... speaking in behalf of another person's opinions as if though they were mine.Silentpony said:
I mean, who am I to say if Yahtzee is now "one of US." Only Ben himself can make that claim... in which he only sorta has in... well.. his own way. But now you really seem to not only want to speak in his behalf, but make assumptions on how he'd feel about the game in the future. And how he would feel about it now if he was the "old Yahtzee...?"
Manfred said:
I'm going to throw a rough estimate of soul memory after the places that are readily available without finding huntman's copse. I like numbers and happen to be a bit bored at the moment... humor me, or don't, i'm mainly rambling anyway
I'm also going to assume that you probably give up trying to get to the gutter after few death jumps and probably hearing from the guy near the total death worldwide stone, that you need to get a ladder to enter the hole in majula(available some time after getting to huntsman's copse.
before the second bonfire in forest of the fallen giants(about 30 enemies averaging maybe around 80 souls per death) 2400 souls per run if you kill all, 15 runs comes to 36k souls,
the cartographer person, somewhere around 10 enemies but once you explore that path you probably wont go there again, 12k souls if you exhaust them but probably under 3k even if you are a bit unlucky,
48k max total so far, then about 15 enemies that could average closer to 100 souls before the boss, we would get pretty close to 80k exhausting all the enemies up to this point(semi ignoring the enemies behind honest pate) boss gives under 20k souls, then there are four enemies before the next boss, i'll group them with the boss totaling about 30k souls
current total after spawns exhausted around 130k
Heide's tower of flame, 9 enemies that respawn, 1 that does not, 400 souls a piece, around 50 k, old dragonslayer(hidden kinda) about 40 k souls(might be less) dragon rider is around 15k i think so lets say 50 k for both bosses, 230k all enemies i can remember currently on those 2 paths, no man's wharf i can't really even guess but i'll estimate around 100k, maybe a little more, and about 20k for the boss
current estimate 350k total, with a semihidden boss, then is the castle that both routes lead to, estimate the bosses somewhere under 150k, again including a hidden boss.
and the mobs to somewhere maybe around 200k, again if completely exhausted, most of them don't yeild too much souls, so the first great soul would be somewhere around 700k if you exhaust just about every mob, closer to 600k if you don't find the hidden bosses. the second route i would estimate somewhere pretty close to same numbers, but there are four bosses available, closer to 130k i think total. little over 100k for shaded forest mobs, probably around the same on door of pharros and lets say 150k for the last area. that would total to somewhere around 1.15 million soul memory if you defeat 2 great souls and just about exhaust every single mob on those routes and the two slightly hidden bosses, soul items and boss souls i can't count, i don't remember how much there are on the way and i haven't used boss souls for souls, but i assume there should not be much over 100k on those so far so this estimate would come to around 1.25 million
You could also get lucky with the lion armor and with the ring or might have invested a lot to hp and then there would be one more path to explore, but if you've played the first dark souls, you would probably assume the fall damage still works as percentages of full health and you would not try to jump in the hole again.
before the second bonfire in forest of the fallen giants(about 30 enemies averaging maybe around 80 souls per death) 2400 souls per run if you kill all, 15 runs comes to 36k souls,
the cartographer person, somewhere around 10 enemies but once you explore that path you probably wont go there again, 12k souls if you exhaust them but probably under 3k even if you are a bit unlucky,
48k max total so far, then about 15 enemies that could average closer to 100 souls before the boss, we would get pretty close to 80k exhausting all the enemies up to this point(semi ignoring the enemies behind honest pate) boss gives under 20k souls, then there are four enemies before the next boss, i'll group them with the boss totaling about 30k souls
current total after spawns exhausted around 130k
Heide's tower of flame, 9 enemies that respawn, 1 that does not, 400 souls a piece, around 50 k, old dragonslayer(hidden kinda) about 40 k souls(might be less) dragon rider is around 15k i think so lets say 50 k for both bosses, 230k all enemies i can remember currently on those 2 paths, no man's wharf i can't really even guess but i'll estimate around 100k, maybe a little more, and about 20k for the boss
current estimate 350k total, with a semihidden boss, then is the castle that both routes lead to, estimate the bosses somewhere under 150k, again including a hidden boss.
and the mobs to somewhere maybe around 200k, again if completely exhausted, most of them don't yeild too much souls, so the first great soul would be somewhere around 700k if you exhaust just about every mob, closer to 600k if you don't find the hidden bosses. the second route i would estimate somewhere pretty close to same numbers, but there are four bosses available, closer to 130k i think total. little over 100k for shaded forest mobs, probably around the same on door of pharros and lets say 150k for the last area. that would total to somewhere around 1.15 million soul memory if you defeat 2 great souls and just about exhaust every single mob on those routes and the two slightly hidden bosses, soul items and boss souls i can't count, i don't remember how much there are on the way and i haven't used boss souls for souls, but i assume there should not be much over 100k on those so far so this estimate would come to around 1.25 million
You could also get lucky with the lion armor and with the ring or might have invested a lot to hp and then there would be one more path to explore, but if you've played the first dark souls, you would probably assume the fall damage still works as percentages of full health and you would not try to jump in the hole again.
So in total, this estimation came somewhere around 1.25 million soul memory if played without online interaction, if you exhaust just about all the mobs, find a few hidden bosses and use about 100k worth of soul items. This estimation includes two great souls and i've given few pretty generous estimates for some areas so the total might come down some. The fourth soul relies a little to a thing found after huntsman's copse so i did not count it, it's not mandatory to find but it is implied by an npc. This also does not include using bonfire ascetic as the game recommends against it and they are very rare at that point. You could also get somewhere between 5k and 10k souls at the starting area that i forgot.
So if you are not playing a lot of co-op i'd side with the "huntsman's copse is pretty damn vital part of the game"-camp.
Also(spoiler on items)
Merchant that will sell most of your titanite and the ember that let's you infuse weapons with elements are both found in the huntsman's copse route, without finding this route you can only buy ten titanite shards(as far as i'm aware) in the game and rest would be up to what you can find. again making it a pretty vital area while not absolutely mandatory. and three of the seven branches of yore(turn petrified people/enemies to normal) that i've found so far are on that route plus one is on the gutter route.
Edit: and little more research shows that without going to huntsman's copse, defeating old sinner or surviving the fall in majula with very high hp and a ring that lowers fall damage, you could only access the old sinner route(one branch of yore after the old sinner, one in the gutter, three in huntsman's copse route and three behind the route that requires having one.
Edit: and little more research shows that without going to huntsman's copse, defeating old sinner or surviving the fall in majula with very high hp and a ring that lowers fall damage, you could only access the old sinner route(one branch of yore after the old sinner, one in the gutter, three in huntsman's copse route and three behind the route that requires having one.