Zero Punctuation: Grand Theft Auto IV

[Tatter]

The light poles are actually pretty realistic, my redneck friends used to vandalize them by taking them down with a sledgehammer blow at about car-bumper level, and they would usually fall like trees before Paul Bunyan's axe. This is required by most municipal traffic codes. Any structure within so many feet of any road has to be delicate enough that a car can plow through them mostly unharmed, so that the Department of Transportation doesn't get buried under the lawsuits from the bereaved mothers of precious little drunk-driving snowflakes that got smeared all over the pavement.

Of course, the problem is, the trees are mandated to be the same way; although they're naturally sturdier than the poles, they have a maximum sturdiness they are allowed to achieve before being cut down as a traffic hazard. So while the trees should be stronger than the light poles, they still should be knocked down by enough of an impact. I guess the coding needed to make a tree fall realisticly was beyond them, but I would have preferred they ditch the relationship bunk in favor of making the trees go down on occasion.

The police are pretty realistic too. The bereaved moms mentioned above have been waging open war upon the police for over a decade now, and one of the biggest fallouts has been that cops in most cities are no longer allowed to pursue suspects that demonstrate sufficient determination to escape, for fear that they will kill someone in their getaway, and that someone's surviving relatives will file suit against the cops and win (because the perp can claim "temporary insanity caused by fear of the pursuers" and thus be held legally blameless). Unless they want you for some sufficiently dangerous offense (like ZOMG TERRORISM), they are required to let you go if you get far enough, fast enough.

Me, I liked the permanent wanted levels and police bribes better.

 

[Telperion]

aside from the unnecessary side quests and the hours of looking around for something to do...

I absolutely hate this: if I have paid real money for a game, then it is not my job to amuse myself. I should not have to be forced to drive around looking for fun. Having said that I also have to confess that I hate sandboxes. Oblivion didn't really work for me, and this thing isn't doing much better. Hey, I appreciate the minigames, but that's what XBox Arcade is for and they got loads of better minigames than GTA IV.

Also, the whole "date girl", "go-to restaurant", "have dinner", routine is boring me out.

the only REAL problem I have with this game is the "realism" factor when it comes to the art.

Yes! There are games out there that require massive amounts of realism BUT this game is not one of them.

The game is a sandbox with some rules that coincide with RL, is the best I can say about it. I totally enjoyed how viciously the cops chased after you - calling in reinforcements and all - in GTA 2. Okay, it's all still there, but why does the radar show when you are safe? It kinda kills the whole excitement of the game, when you can tell to the millisecond when you are safe and can get back to whatever you were doing before the cops started chasing you.

what do you think?

I think, I'll play the demo before I purchase GTA V.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Whole load of stuff

Ok...

Interesting points, but this isn't really the same game we're talking about now is it?

Let's try and take this in order.
My first point still stands:
What exactly makes beating up prostitutes worse than beating up the police? Or firebombing buildings? Or opening up with a minigun on a open road?
Not only does beating up a prostitute to take back her pay constitute a breach of the terms by which consent was granted
It's still not rape though. It's Aggravated Murder: Because mugging (what most people would do) isn't simulated. I find it far more offensive that the sexual act is hidden whilst the murder is graphically detailed.

By all means let's have corrupt, incompetent, overstretched and unmotivated cops who never bother with such petty crimes, but let's at least make them crimes on paper. I'm sure players would enjoy seeing how large a list of offenses they can rack up in preparation for a mission involving getting sent to jail.
Whilst that would be nice, something as simple as driving on the wrong side of the road would be hellishly difficult to code because there are legal precedents to do it in certain circumstances.

Come on, try to launch a one-man armed crusade against the pimps. See how long you get to keep your willie
Fine, I'm bringing my friend the Minigun and a selection of Armoured Vehicles. My pecker's staying attached.

They give a unique >100% health boost, correct?
Which isn't really realistic is it? AFAICR, you thrash around for a bit and then go to sleep, waking up to do it again and then getting into work shattered.

The option is there. All I'm asking for is a bit more thought be put into the possible consequences.
This is GTA...you could equally as likely bounce a newlywed bride off your bonnet, but there has to be a few limitations. Even in GTA, taste is necessary.

Where is the alternative option to support a sex workers' collective that helps women organise to protect themselves against pimps and campaign for decriminalisation?
Lula the Sexy Empire?

Let's give this to the ingame sex workers. Try any rough stuff and you get maced, the screen goes black, health falls to zero and you wake up outside hospital with a status message: 'Penis severed. No longer able to use prostitutes. Manliness down 5pts.'
So these threats get mowed down or never used, thus effectively removing them from the game.

OH NOES...you can get drunk and drive!!!! BAN THIS SICK GAME! *ahem*

I quite like the contrast of tragedy and comedy - it's a classical Greek literary technique that intensifies both themes if done well - but I can certainly see a place in gaming for Postal-style kill 'em ups and realistic and thought-provoking crime simulators that don't pull their punches.

Have you any idea what Jack Thompson would do to a game that realistically portrayed Sex, Murder etc.

There's quite a few serious crime simulators out there, but very few have sold one million copies in a week. There's also no male prostitutes, I don't think there's any female cops etc. etc. etc.

After the Hot Coffee, I'm surprised there's any sex in there at all. There needs to be this 'cartoony' sex accepted by the Authorities before we're ever gonna get to see realistic sex/prostitution ever allowed in games. GTA is just testing the waters; and the pirahnas are already putting their napkins on.

 

[lindsay40k]

What exactly makes beating up prostitutes worse than beating up the police? Or firebombing buildings? Or opening up with a minigun on a open road?

Why are you persistently assigning to me these absurd comparisons that bear no resemblance to anything I've said?

beating up a prostitute to take back her pay constitutes a breach of the terms by which consent was granted
It's still not rape though.

Consent was granted on the understanding of renumeration, a condition which was broken. Consent is thereby withdrawn. If I put a DVD in my bag on the understanding that I'll give money in exchange for it then walk out of the shop threatening anybody who tries to stop me, I am a thief.

Have you no answer to the analysis that hiring a pimp to threaten an impoverished addict with bodily harm or drug withdrawal if she does not agree to perform acts she would not consent to in a relationship of equals is in itself an act of rape, even before the client beats her to a pulp?

By all means let's have corrupt, incompetent, overstretched and unmotivated cops who never bother with such petty crimes, but let's at least make them crimes on paper. I'm sure players would enjoy seeing how large a list of offenses they can rack up in preparation for a mission involving getting sent to jail.
Whilst that would be nice, something as simple as driving on the wrong side of the road would be hellishly difficult to code because there are legal precedents to do it in certain circumstances.

Come now, the GTA series is a license to print money.

Come on, try to launch a one-man armed crusade against the pimps.
Fine, I'm bringing my friend the Minigun and a selection of Armoured Vehicles. My pecker's staying attached.

Go for it, have fun. Just don't try to pretend that your snuff sandbox is a highbrow crime simulator, as many GTA fans do.

They give a unique >100% health boost, correct?
Which isn't really realistic is it? AFAICR, you thrash around for a bit and then go to sleep, waking up to do it again and then getting into work shattered.

I read about a study showing that athletic performance can be improved by having recently had intercourse. But yes, I'd definitely agree that GTA's virtual sex trade is absurd - any mention of STIs?

The option is there. All I'm asking for is a bit more thought be put into the possible consequences.
This is GTA...you could equally as likely bounce a newlywed bride off your bonnet, but there has to be a few limitations. Even in GTA, taste is necessary.

GTA has consistently been using as much controversy as it can get away with to sell games. The very first game encouraged persecution of religious minority groups, and we've seen homophobia and racism. All well and good them using their little shock tactics to sell games to the masses, let's just not pretend it's anything more than interactive snuff.

Where is the alternative option to support a sex workers' collective that helps women organise to protect themselves against pimps and campaign for decriminalisation?
Lula the Sexy Empire?

Erm, from what I can gather that's just a business sim wrapped up in a layer of interactive porn. Comparing the porn industry to organised sex workers is like calling a corporation a trade union.

Let's give this to the ingame sex workers. Try any rough stuff and you get maced, the screen goes black, health falls to zero and you wake up outside hospital with a status message: 'Penis severed. No longer able to use prostitutes. Manliness down 5pts.'
So these threats get mowed down or never used, thus effectively removing them from the game.

I'm not saying this should be a guaranteed consequence every time the player does it, but there should be a Grue waiting for you somewhere. Introducing harsh consequences for likely failure clearly does not constitute removal. Play by the rules and you don't get hurt; break the rules and you're in danger. There are plenty of games which use a similar system, it's nothing controversial.

OH NOES...you can get drunk and drive!!!! BAN THIS SICK GAME! *ahem*

Oh dear, I knew it wouldn't be long for this sort of thing to crop up.

I quite like the contrast of tragedy and comedy - it's a classical Greek literary technique that intensifies both themes if done well - but I can certainly see a place in gaming for Postal-style kill 'em ups and realistic and thought-provoking crime simulators that don't pull their punches.

Have you any idea what Jack Thompson would do to a game that realistically portrayed Sex, Murder etc.

If games in which sex and murder can occur accurately portrayed the consequences of these acts without massively glorifying them, the likes of Thompson would not have any arguments left. I'm not calling for Titty Stabber Auto, I'm suggesting that if GTA wants to be a grown up it's got to get over its adolescent idea of 'mature' meaning 'cause maximum offensive'.

There's also no male prostitutes, I don't think there's any female cops etc. etc. etc.

Indeed, all things that Rockstar should get around to sorting out.

After the Hot Coffee, I'm surprised there's any sex in there at all. There needs to be this 'cartoony' sex accepted by the Authorities before we're ever gonna get to see realistic sex/prostitution ever allowed in games. GTA is just testing the waters; and the pirahnas are already putting their napkins on.

I disagree, I think GTA is doing the worst possible thing to get games accepted as a medium - capitulating to the conservative censors whilst at the same time being as shallow and sensationalist as possible to maximise sales.

 

[Singing Gremlin]

Consent was granted on the understanding of renumeration, a condition which was broken. Consent is thereby withdrawn. If I put a DVD in my bag on the understanding that I'll give money in exchange for it then walk out of the shop threatening anybody who tries to stop me, I am a thief.

Overall, this debate is waaaay over my head, but on this point I think Root is right. The order of events is money is handed over, sex (with consent) takes place, after which a totally separate crime is committed. If you look at all the events from a point before they happen, yes there would not be consent, but you can't get your ex arrested because you gave consent, slept together, then he was an arse, you broke up and now you want to retrospectively remove consent, which I believe is the point Root is making. You are however correct the the prostitute is likely to be forced into her position by a pimp, which would complicate things somewhat, but from a black-and-white perspective, I don't think it'd count as rape.

Yes, anyway, enough making a fool of myself, back to watching the clever people talk.

 

[lindsay40k]

The order of events is money is handed over, sex (with consent) takes place, after which a totally separate crime is committed.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this summary...

A verbal contract is made in which consent is granted conditionally, sex takes place and money is handed over (either could happen first), after which a crime is committed - which not only is a direct logical extension of the balance of power between a client and a prostitute (even if we don't have a pimp holding a knife to her throat) but also invalidates the terms of the contract by which consent was granted. (This is assuming the client initially paid - the option to withhold payment at point of sale is not present in GTA.)

This situation really can't be compared to a relationship between equals, in which sex is not granted under any form of agreement not to be a jerk later. (Though it should be noted at this juncture that over half of recorded rapes occur within the context of sexual relationships.)

It is unfortunate that your point that this is a complicated situation is an entirely valid one - and predominantly male judiciaries have a long track record of taking the side of men who have exploited or molested women who were 'asking for it anyway'. There is a long continuum of gray areas, and the black and white perspective of the authorities has been decidedly one-sided for a long, long time.

I suppose GTA reflects this aspect of the criminal justice system quite well, though generally not in any sort of intelligent or satirical manner.

Sincere thanks for contributing!

 

[stillstanding134]

hey yahtzee i loved your review of gta4 but i was surprised that you never mentioned the new gps system in the game that gives you routes to get to places

 

[Tatter]

hey yahtzee i loved your review of gta4 but i was surprised that you never mentioned the new gps system in the game that gives you routes to get to places

Please don't tell him how to do his job, it creates a criticism feedback loop that makes him 31 flavors of cranky. Then we'll get stuck with another stupid mailbag episode.

 

[Hey Joe]

hey yahtzee i loved your review of gta4 but i was surprised that you never mentioned the new gps system in the game that gives you routes to get to places

Please don't tell him how to do his job, it creates a criticism feedback loop that makes him 31 flavors of cranky. Then we'll get stuck with another stupid mailbag episode.

Wait? So we're allowed to say 'haha! It was brilliant how you included that in your criticism!', but not allowed to say 'You didn't include this and as a result I feel your review suffered'?

I'm sure that Yahtzee can take a bit of criticism, being a professional writer and all that. What we shouldn't do however is drive his agenda by bleating "Review this game pleeze!" (That's for The Escapist to do).

That being said, I didn't agree with aspects of his review this week. For one, he expresses a frustration at the social outings and NPC/Human interaction. I agree that if you do the same thing over and over again it can become a bit stale, but there are about 10 or so different things you can do.

Also, he says that there is no discernable pay off for driving NPCs around, but there is. For one, you unlock certain bonuses if the NPC likes you enough (Black Cabs for Roman, back up for Dwayne) and the conversation between Niko and the NPC during the journey helps to flesh out the NPC character.

It all adds up to create a highly involving process where you feel you 'know' the characters more because you've interacted with them outside the mission parameters.

I found the police attention mechanic to be well implemented too. At lower levels, it is a lot easier to get away from the cops, I agree, but on three or more stars I find it harder. This is because even though you may drive outside the radar, you'll invariably run into another cop, thus restoring the radar. Often, slowing down is required when running from the cops to stay out of sight, rather than just gunning it, so strategy is needed at times.

The tree thing does frustrate me, especially when I've just knocked down a lamp. Moving from behind cover can also be incredibly frustrating at times, like when there's a a guy with a shotgun RIGHT BEHIND YOU.

 

[Tatter]

Wait? So we're allowed to say 'haha! It was brilliant how you included that in your criticism!', but not allowed to say 'You didn't include this and as a result I feel your review suffered'?

I didn't say it was fair, just that you need to recalibrate your sarcasm meter.

 

[crimped]

LMFAO... Yahtzee, your the only reason I come to this lame ass site

 

[Vectrex]

I just wanted to take a minute of my not-so-busy schedule to tell you: "I fu*****g love you"

 

[LwaXley]

you know, apart from the "writing your mom a letter misson" you can actually write your mom an rest of the family in europe e-mails XD

 

[thahat]

Dear Escapist Magazine,

I put up with these obnoxious eggnetwork "click this balloon to watch the video trailer" ads you toss into the actual videos because A, I can get rid of them by clicking the close ad button in the window, and B, I accept you need to make money.

However, this newest one, the stupid (not to mention completely racist, but that's another story) ad for the Pontiac Vibe, will NOT disappear when I click on the close ad button, and instead immediately expands to cover the entire video window and present me with a video of the ad. Now, once that happens, I CAN close the ad and get back to ZP, but the audio from the ad's video keeps playing over the ZP video, with no way to turn it off.

Even if I ever had any interest in the Pontiac Vibe in the first place, this would completely kill it. And while I realize that advertising agencies have no interest in creating a positive reaction to their commercials (since market research has proven that if ignorant viewers are bombarded with the ads over and over and over AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, they will buy the product no matter how much they dislike seeing the commercial), I thought your magazine was a little too intelligent to actually resort to this method of increasing the number of clicks the ads get.

you actualy get to see ads? must be using internet explorer or smthing then XD

 

[Royzy]

The trees are really strangely solid in a lot of games, Mercenaries was the same.

 

[Cowabungaa]

The trees are really strangely solid in a lot of games, Mercenaries was the same.

Look at some road accidents: cars almost folded around trees, I've seen one split in half. Don't forget that those things have a root system. But ofcourse, the little thin trees in the middle of the city shouldn't behave like that. Yes, sturdier then lightpoles, but not un-destroyable. The big trees however, would only be destroyable by a truck heading at it at full speed.