Melissa Chen: What Americans Don’t Understand About China

[hanselthecaretaker]

Furthermore, these sort of things kinda fly under the radar.

One of the comments summed it up well:
China only was able to do all this with American CEOs giving them American jobs, giving them entire industries. China did not FORCE American elites to do any of this. Ameerican elites were very happy to sell out their country.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I mean... Yay, right?

That's capitalism. Make the most profit by any means necessary. This is what this 'system of government' is based off of. The giant companies did what they could to get every single dollar. Why aren't people celebrating?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I mean... Yay, right?

That's capitalism. Make the most profit by any means necessary. This is what this 'system of government' is based off of. The giant companies did what they could to get every single dollar. Why aren't people celebrating?

Regardless of economics, it’s the shit part about human nature to exploit wherever and whomever possible for power and control. Even with a utopian society some part of the human race will fuck it up for everyone eventually.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

That's exactly why no one should trust China about really anything. China is probably close to North Korea in the sense of how the population views their country. You can look at how Fang Fang's diary of the coronavirus being published outside of China was disliked by many Chinese. Controlling information really does directly end up controlling people and their ideologies. China has lied about many things in the past already. This is why I posted in the Tech forum not to use Zoom. I wouldn't trust any meetings being secure that use Chinese encryption servers.

 

[CM156]

China has lied about many things in the past already.

Careful there: If you point out what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989, you may lose social credit points.

 

[Trunkage]

Careful there: If you point out what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989, you may lose social credit points.

Careful there: if you point out that US police brutalize it's citizens, especially minorities, you might get shot with rubber bullets. And imprisioned.

 

[Trunkage]

Furthermore, these sort of things kinda fly under the radar.

One of the comments summed it up well:
China only was able to do all this with American CEOs giving them American jobs, giving them entire industries. China did not FORCE American elites to do any of this. Ameerican elites were very happy to sell out their country.

This was from a while ago, why are you bringing this up now?

We have similar problems here but we sell out to China AND America. And India and England. We don't really have much of a culture other then what our betters tell us.

 

[CM156]

Careful there: if you point out that US police brutalize it's citizens, especially minorities, you might get shot with rubber bullets. And imprisioned.

I was going to make a joke about how that was unlikely because I rarely leave my apartment, but then I remembered all those stories about cops shooting people in their home for no good reason.

 

[Agema]

Careful there: If you point out what happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989, you may lose social credit points.

I can't help but feel we should care a lot less about what China thinks. And if they want to take measures against our businesses because we deign to mention China's violent repression, we should reply in kind over it. I mean, seriously. It's not as if there aren't another 100 countries round the world that can make fridges, microchips, and cheap plastic tat for us instead.

I was in a way quite pleased Trump took China on. Except that he did so in a bombastically aggressive, half-arsed fashion that barely addressed a lot of the problems and stoked up a lot of unnecessary rancour... but that's Trump all over. The EU has apparently decided to start getting significantly tougher with China.

 

[CM156]

I can't help but feel we should care a lot less about what China thinks. And if they want to take measures against our businesses because we deign to mention China's violent repression, we should reply in kind over it. I mean, seriously. It's not as if there aren't another 100 countries round the world that can make fridges, microchips, and cheap plastic tat for us instead.

I unironically agree. Let's all go after China all at once. They can't shoot all of us.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

This was from a while ago, why are you bringing this up now?

We have similar problems here but we sell out to China AND America. And India and England. We don't really have much of a culture other then what our betters tell us.

I don’t typically watch much JRE but for some reason that clip was on my YouTube front page. Probably tagged from other China-related clips.

 

[Trunkage]

I unironically agree. Let's all go after China all at once. They can't shoot all of us.

They got 1/5 of the world's population. If we're attacking, they probably could

What Trump, Obama and Bush never realised is that China has it's own economy. It doesn't need anyone else. Trying to hurt it is like punching a rhino

 

[MrCalavera]

I mean... Yay, right?

That's capitalism. Make the most profit by any means necessary. This is what this 'system of government' is based off of. The giant companies did what they could to get every single dollar. Why aren't people celebrating?

Exactly. The quote about capitalists and a rope rings true. Corporations had no problem dealing with the nazis. They have no problem dealing with communist China, as long as they offer.

Careful there: if you point out that US police brutalize it's citizens, especially minorities, you might get shot with rubber bullets. And imprisioned.

Careful there: We're getting dangerously close to "two wrongs make a right".

 

[Trunkage]

Careful there: We're getting dangerously close to "two wrongs make a right".

It was more like 'the country of Freedom doesn't really have the Freedom it pretends it does'

 

[Agema]

They got 1/5 of the world's population. If we're attacking, they probably could

China's army is the world's largest, yet modest for its population, relatively low tech, and probably pretty mediocre quality.

What Trump, Obama and Bush never realised is that China has it's own economy. It doesn't need anyone else. Trying to hurt it is like punching a rhino

China is still heavily reliant on exports, although this is declining as it has been increasingly focusing on developing its domestic economy. For instance, the USA and China export about the same in $ value, but the USA's economy is about half again as large.

That's also without factoring in whether China's GDP is what official figures say. If you look at a graph of China's reported GDP growth, it seems freakishly consistent year on year. It is frequently beleived that it is being "smoothed" in order to project stability. At worst, it's just wrong. The Wikileaks cables revealed not even China's leaders trust their own country's economic self-reporting. The process by which it calculates GDP it is unclear, there isn't much central oversight to double check it, and there have been accusations that regional officials inflate their figures to promote their own advancement. At least one study has claimed that China's growth may have been overstated by as much as 2% per year for a decade; if so it's economy may be about 20% smaller than official reports, which if true means it's considerably more reliant on exports. At an extreme end, it's even been claimed its reported economy is 50% higher than reality.

 

[stroopwafel]

China is still heavily reliant on exports, although this is declining as it has been increasingly focusing on developing its domestic economy. For instance, the USA and China export about the same in $ value, but the USA's economy is about half again as large.

That's also without factoring in whether China's GDP is what official figures say. If you look at a graph of China's reported GDP growth, it seems freakishly consistent year on year. It is frequently beleived that it is being "smoothed" in order to project stability. At worst, it's just wrong. The Wikileaks cables revealed not even China's leaders trust their own country's economic self-reporting. The process by which it calculates GDP it is unclear, there isn't much central oversight to double check it, and there have been accusations that regional officials inflate their figures to promote their own advancement. At least one study has claimed that China's growth may have been overstated by as much as 2% per year for a decade; if so it's economy may be about 20% smaller than official reports, which if true means it's considerably more reliant on exports. At an extreme end, it's even been claimed its reported economy is 50% higher than reality.

None of this really matters if the entire developed world is dependent on Chinese exports since the entire production and manufacture has been outsourced to China. They know it's not armies and weapons that dominate the global balance of power it's long supply lines and currency. China pretty much owns the dollar at this point with the amount of debt the U.S. is in. It's the same as with the trade deficit. It's not really about that. It's about the U.S.' envy with China's technological progress that is now able to provide the world with the wireless infrastructure of the future that the U.S. doesn't really have an alternative for. So soon it's not just production it's crucial technology as well. This puts the U.S. at severe strategic disadvantage. China is playing this game in multiple territories. If a country is riddled with debt, sweep in, invest heavily and if debt can't be recouped demand ownership in infrastructure. With a bankrupt Italy or Spain and a divided E.U. it's not unthinkable China will own a European port sooner or later in the heart of Nato territory.

But China is not the West with it's imperialistic tendencies. It just accepts the world as is but won't allow trade partners or adversaries to turn against it. China won't accept U.S. hegemony anymore but at the same time won't do anything that threatens the stability of the dollar. The country also won't allow dissidence in Taiwan but at the same time it's unlikely to violently suppress it due to Taiwan being a linchpin for it's international liaisons. Taiwanese insurance companies and independent rule of law provide investors with the certainty that their investments are secure in the case of disputes. The CP will go out of it's way to protect this stability.

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms against China(animal abuse, pollution, human righs violations) but it's economic policy have always been simply supply & demand. It's a game they are just much more cunning and refined in and wich made them now the rival superpower. It also used to be that loyalty with the U.S. was unconditional but those terms have also been broken with Trump having alienated most of it's former allies. And China does not have imperialist tendencies but will export it's political system to countries that are vulnerable to it and have populist leadership like Hungary. In that regard the U.S. also lost it's 'shining city on the hill' as something for other nations to aspire too. Even Russia, an economically weak nation pretending to be a superpower with it's dwindling revenue of it's gas resources plays a refined game of divide and conquer by further provoking dissidence within western countries and siding with China on international matters.

The entire balance of power is being reconfigured without a shot being fired and it's obvious who is having the winning hand. But at the same time China and international investment capital also created a system that is mutually beneficial. China lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Western consumers have cheap TVs, phones, laptops cheap everything. International investors in industrial sectors have much higher returns. And the dollar is still the main currency.

China has every benefit to make the U.S. believe it's still the one in charge. You can even see it in international relations. Trump is foaming from the mouth with his red high blood pressure face that is still visible no matter how much bronze he puts on while Xi remains calm and composed making no statements or decisions that would damage his chances with future presidents. While Trump is trying to please his twitter crowd from his high horse and being mired in ridiculous political scandals and ***** fits with entitled divas China is keeping a low profile playing the long game achieving one strategic accomplishment after the other.

 

[Neuromancer]

With a bankrupt Italy or Spain and a divided E.U. it's not unthinkable China will own a European port sooner or later in the heart of Nato territory.

I would like to note in this particular point that the Chinese Ocean Shipping Company owns by majority the port of Piraeus, the main port of Greece and one of the largest in Europe, so that's already happened.

 

[Agema]

China pretty much owns the dollar at this point with the amount of debt the U.S. is in.

Myth. China has never owned more than ~10% of US debt, and it's currently ~5%.

It's the same as with the trade deficit. It's not really about that. It's about the U.S.' envy with China's technological progress that is now able to provide the world with the wireless infrastructure of the future that the U.S. doesn't really have an alternative for.

5G does not a civilisation make.

How much does China actually make that the USA / EU / Japan etc. can't do as as well or better? Actually, very little. Remember, vast amounts of important stuff that China is making is IP designed and owned by Western companies. The West could hardly stop importing from China overnight, but production could be moved away over a course of a few years.

And, no, there is just about no chance the USA or most of the EU will permit China ownership of vital infrastructure.

But China is not the West with it's imperialistic tendencies. It just accepts the world as is but won't allow trade partners or adversaries to turn against it. The country also won't allow dissidence in Taiwan

I'd have a stop and think about the contradictions in there...

...but at the same time it's unlikely to violently suppress it...

Like it hasn't violently suppressed Tibet, or the Uighurs, or unilaterally claimed the South China Sea (which it's covered in military bases, right off the coasts of several other nations) and Senkaku islands, and invaded India over specious border claims? And if you've missed all the overt military posturing China makes towards Taiwan, well you need to do some checking. You are however right that it is unlikely to militarily attack it soon: but mostly because it doesn't think it would be able to win and get away with it.

And China does not have imperialist tendencies but will export it's political system to countries that are vulnerable to it and have populist leadership like Hungary.

Again, you need to think really carefully about what you're arguing here. Imperialism in terms of invading places and permanently occupying them is relatively old hat for everyone these days. Economic and political domination has been the new imperialism for a long time now, and China's getting right up there. China's abilities to influence the world have been limited by underdevelopment for decades. As its growth and development progress and these barriers increasingly fall away, China is going to assert itself steadily more. We'd be fools to think it's going to sit on all that power and not use it.

 

[Agema]

I would like to note in this particular point that the Chinese Ocean Shipping Company owns by majority the port of Piraeus, the main port of Greece and one of the largest in Europe, so that's already happened.

I presumed he meant "owned" as something like a naval base, as a Chinese company having a controlling interest in the commercial operation of a civilian port doesn't mean much at all.

 

[Silvanus]

And, no, there is just about no chance the USA or most of the EU will permit China ownership of vital infrastructure.

I notice a diplomatic exclusion from that statement.