So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

[Eacaraxe]

The current democratic party is lefter than ever right now...

The current Democratic party nominee is a co-author of the crime bill, who also supported the welfare bill, NAFTA, telecoms act of '96, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the PATRIOT Act, the "war on terror" AUMF, and the Iraq invasion. As VP he stood by and did nothing while Obama didn't prosecute bankers and quietly allowed the foreclosure crisis to continue at full throttle, all while not re-regulating Wall Street, the mass media, law enforcement, and the energy sector. In addition to the severely...lackluster...response to Baltimore, Ferguson, Standing Rock, Occupy, and so many other civil rights and peace movements and protests. So he said something about same-sex marriage...you know, after polls demonstrated a clear trend that Democrats' very legitimacy is at risk should they not reverse course on the issue immediately.

Of course, mind, the first two years in Obama's term were marked by Democratic super-majorities in House and Senate, and not only did Obama fail to whip his own party with the full might of a post-Bush unitary executive to enact anything remotely resembling a progressive agenda, he caved to a minority blue dogs' demands to enact a largely regressive agenda. Repeatedly.

The eight years of Obama's term being bracketed by a Democratic majority which ultimately did nothing to reign in Bush's libidinous urges nor hold that administration to account despite campaigning on that very promise, and ultimately a Democratic majority which has effectively functioned as a rubber stamp for the Trump administration in every substantive way.

All while being funded by the same people who fund and support Republicans, and blockading actual progressives and primary challenges from the left with the full arranged might of the party. No, the Democratic party is certainly not in any meaningful way "lefter" than it's ever been; rather the opposite is the case, being the Democrats are further right than at any point since the end of the civil war.

Democrats just like to pretend they are.

 

[Agema]

All we are accomplishing at this point is Progressives are self sabotaging their ability to do anything at all for the rest of our lives here by not utilizing any of the only viable paths to accomplishing their goals at this time.

Yes.

The more the right remains in power and enacts its agenda, the more the progressive left has to move governance should it ever gain power, which means wasting it's time and efforts "undoing" things the right has already done. Furthermore, the status quo, particularly in US politics, is relatively hard to change because of the gridlock in the system; it may also be harder to sell to the public the more that they want to change the status quo. And as noted, Trump has been stuffing the courts with right-wing judges that are going to make legal challenges to left-wing legislation particularly vexing.

Potentially even if the left takes power, if it cannot exercise power to achieve meaningful change, it will disappoint its supporters and damage its own reputation.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Sounds like the time for a third party then. If nobody wants to take the blame they should support it.

Sadly, I think they want to lose power less than they want to take the blame for this mess.

Would be nice if all the environmentalists woke up and dropped the Democrats like a hot potato. If the Earth is going to burn up if something isn't done now then the trash "solutions" the Democrats suggest right now are like trying to put out a housefire by pissing on it.

 

[Agema]

Would be nice if all the environmentalists woke up and dropped the Democrats like a hot potato. If the Earth is going to burn up if something isn't done now then the trash "solutions" the Democrats suggest right now are like trying to put out a housefire by pissing on it.

It's only any use dropping the Democrats if there's a viable alternative to enact environmental policy.

As there isn't, dropping the Democrats just means another four years of trying to put out a housefire by pumping crude oil on it.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Yes.

The more the right remains in power and enacts its agenda, the more the progressive left has to move governance should it ever gain power, which means wasting it's time and efforts "undoing" things the right has already done. Furthermore, the status quo, particularly in US politics, is relatively hard to change because of the gridlock in the system; it may also be harder to sell to the public the more that they want to change the status quo. And as noted, Trump has been stuffing the courts with right-wing judges that are going to make legal challenges to left-wing legislation particularly vexing.

Potentially even if the left takes power, if it cannot exercise power to achieve meaningful change, it will disappoint its supporters and damage its own reputation.

Even more reason to oust Trump as soon as possible.

RBG is on her way out. Stalling for the perfect candidate will only entrench the will of despots like Trump further. Because even when Trump is voted out, he's going to make damn sure that people who crony up to him will last for as long as he could milk them dry.

To pretend like we actually have an option that doesn't harm us less is an exercise as folly.

Look, I see stuff like this:

The current Democratic party nominee is a co-author of the crime bill, who also supported the welfare bill, NAFTA, telecoms act of '96, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the PATRIOT Act, the "war on terror" AUMF, and the Iraq invasion. As VP he stood by and did nothing while Obama didn't prosecute bankers and quietly allowed the foreclosure crisis to continue at full throttle, all while not re-regulating Wall Street, the mass media, law enforcement, and the energy sector. In addition to the severely...lackluster...response to Baltimore, Ferguson, Standing Rock, Occupy, and so many other civil rights and peace movements and protests. So he said something about same-sex marriage...you know, after polls demonstrated a clear trend that Democrats' very legitimacy is at risk should they not reverse course on the issue immediately.

Of course, mind, the first two years in Obama's term were marked by Democratic super-majorities in House and Senate, and not only did Obama fail to whip his own party with the full might of a post-Bush unitary executive to enact anything remotely resembling a progressive agenda, he caved to a minority blue dogs' demands to enact a largely regressive agenda. Repeatedly.

The eight years of Obama's term being bracketed by a Democratic majority which ultimately did nothing to reign in Bush's libidinous urges nor hold that administration to account despite campaigning on that very promise, and ultimately a Democratic majority which has effectively functioned as a rubber stamp for the Trump administration in every substantive way.

All while being funded by the same people who fund and support Republicans, and blockading actual progressives and primary challenges from the left with the full arranged might of the party. No, the Democratic party is certainly not in any meaningful way "lefter" than it's ever been; rather the opposite is the case, being the Democrats are further right than at any point since the end of the civil war.

Democrats just like to pretend they are.

And it's stuff I already know. I split with the Corporates years ago. But I know an unchecked Trump is decidedly the worst outcome. There are no balances in the United States Government Nowadays. If Biden is stymied... Good. Frankly, that's good for the nation because he will have to pass measured responses to affect America as a whole, not just his base. Because that's actually what I want. I do have a system of Government that I think is best, but I realize all of America wouldn't feel like they benefited from it. So I'd rather a balanced budget, freedoms for all, and a president who doesn't harm our creditability worldwide.

We are heading to so many world Crises that I don't even fully comprehend how humanity is going to weather these storms. Energy, Environment, Drinking Water, Resources, Racial Unrest, it gets daunting to count them all. And if we just had a half measure to abate these crises for a moment... that's a great step forward.

It's like how people say solar doesn't solve everything and point to the short term harm in manufacturing the solar panels. Because it isn't perfect, scrap it. UK's wind farms generate 8.5% of the UK’s total electricity output, and there are detractors who say it's not enough so it's a waste of time.

You stop the most egregious bad thing first and you tackle the rest later. If Trump is the Cancer, Biden is Chemotherapy. Definitely not the best thing for your body, but it attacks the cancer and gets rid of it. Then you rehab after it.

I get how bad Biden is. But I also get that Trump is worse. I will take Chained Bad vs Unchecked Worse any day of the week.

 

[Eacaraxe]

It's only any use dropping the Democrats if there's a viable alternative to enact environmental policy.

If the alternative is Democratic piss-bucket takes like trying to force solar photovoltaic down everyone's throats regardless of externalities, sustainability, or regional advantage; sending kickbacks to campaign contributors by redefining renewable energy sources like what happened in Washington state; preserving the environmental law racket at any and all cost; coastal bougie-friendly NIMBY bullshit; acting as if nuclear hasn't progressed technologically since the 1940's; dying on the hill of environmentally-disastrous free trade legislation; and dragging their heels on proven solutions like growing industrial hemp to clean brownfields; screw it. The "free market" might actually have some answers worth exploration.

I say that as an environmentalist.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

It's only any use dropping the Democrats if there's a viable alternative to enact environmental policy.

As there isn't, dropping the Democrats just means another four years of trying to put out a housefire by pumping crude oil on it.

I firmly disagree. Currently the solutions suggested make the issue seem far less serious than it is. How does something, as just one example, taxing gas companies more, solve anything? That's a slow method that also doesn't change anything on its own. Part of the problem is also one of the constituents of the Democrats which is the poor. The changing of cars from gas to electric hurts poor people more than the well off as do many of the actions that should be done now rather than later. Further on that, even now the Democrats are made out to represent too many different groups with different needs and it spreads out their ability to do anything far too thin.

The main source of the power of the Democrats is minority groups, but they can't actually put enough force behind any one cause because there are so many of them that all want their problems solved now. A pure environmental party would have no such restrictions on them and could be much more focused on doing what needs to be done NOW.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Even more reason to oust Trump as soon as possible...

The first and second half of your post are the same problem. We saw Obama nominate Garland to thunderous applause and back-breaking consent manufacture by establishment Democrats the mass media. Garland was further-right than Scalia especially on 4th, 5th, 7th, and 8th amendment jurisprudence, sparing the death penalty upon which Garland has no established record. His appointment was handed to Senate Republicans on a silver platter, and blockading it was one of the absolute stupidest things McConnell has done in his entire career. All because Garland was a non-entity on abortion jurisprudence.

Taken into consideration that along with Biden's fervent support for Thomas' appointment to the point of defaming and silencing Anita Hill, we can only conclude Biden is likely to only appoint "moderate" to conservative justices, but only so long as they adhere to Democratic positions on wedge issues. In other words, we'd be considering ourselves lucky to see appointments even ideologically consistent with Anthony Kennedy. Atop that SCOTUS is already majority-conservative for a generation, that argument is a complete and utter non-starter, and serves only to reinforce the real point:

Democrats don't even provide half-measures in the opposite direction, quite the opposite in fact. They'll offer empty platitudes all day on the promise they can be held to account once in office, but when exactly in any of our lifetimes has that proven to be the case? Forcing the most minor of concessions to be quickly backpedaled absent scrutiny, and only when no other alternative to resisting progress presents itself, is no meaningful sense of accountability that can or should be attributed to a political party operating in good faith. Democrats in contemporary American politics serve one purpose and one alone: to blockade leftward movement while enabling rightward.

What Democratic voters seem to want, is not change but rather for the mask to be back on. The sole true benefit of the Trump administration thus far, is he ripped the mask off and revealed America for what it truly is in a way undeniable to any American with two brain cells to rub together. Befitting a man whose election is a symptom of the very problems his election revealed, but to find the causes, look no further than the Senate record of one Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.

 

[Agema]

I firmly disagree. Currently the solutions suggested make the issue seem far less serious than it is. How does something, as just one example, taxing gas companies more, solve anything?

The "free market" might actually have some answers worth exploration.

I say that as an environmentalist.

The laissez faire, fuck the environment lobby has already won. The free market has ensured that by now pretty much the only game in town is hoping technology provides a miracle solution ($$$ profits to make!), because oterwise at best we're at damage limitation from bad to not quite as bad.

 

[ObsidianJones]

The first and second half of your post are the same problem. We saw Obama nominate Garland to thunderous applause and back-breaking consent manufacture by establishment Democrats the mass media. Garland was further-right than Scalia especially on 4th, 5th, 7th, and 8th amendment jurisprudence, sparing the death penalty upon which Garland has no established record. His appointment was handed to Senate Republicans on a silver platter, and blockading it was one of the absolute stupidest things McConnell has done in his entire career. All because Garland was a non-entity on abortion jurisprudence.

Taken into consideration that along with Biden's fervent support for Thomas' appointment to the point of defaming and silencing Anita Hill, we can only conclude Biden is likely to only appoint "moderate" to conservative justices, but only so long as they adhere to Democratic positions on wedge issues. In other words, we'd be considering ourselves lucky to see appointments even ideologically consistent with Anthony Kennedy. Atop that SCOTUS is already majority-conservative for a generation, that argument is a complete and utter non-starter, and serves only to reinforce the real point:

Democrats don't even provide half-measures in the opposite direction, quite the opposite in fact. They'll offer empty platitudes all day on the promise they can be held to account once in office, but when exactly in any of our lifetimes has that proven to be the case? Forcing the most minor of concessions to be quickly backpedaled absent scrutiny, and only when no other alternative to resisting progress presents itself, is no meaningful sense of accountability that can or should be attributed to a political party operating in good faith. Democrats in contemporary American politics serve one purpose and one alone: to blockade leftward movement while enabling rightward.

What Democratic voters seem to want, is not change but rather for the mask to be back on. The sole true benefit of the Trump administration thus far, is he ripped the mask off and revealed America for what it truly is in a way undeniable to any American with two brain cells to rub together. Befitting a man whose election is a symptom of the very problems his election revealed, but to find the causes, look no further than the Senate record of one Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.

You see Moderation to be a problem. I don't.

I'm damn sure my way of governing is the best for humanity as a whole. I wouldn't think it or want it to happen if I didn't honestly believe that. But the issue is not everyone is going to agree with me. And that's fine. There needs to be values and shut offs to get a measure of my ideas through and a measure of other people's ideas through.

And yeah, I don't agree with how Biden handled the Thomas situation. I don't agree with many things Biden did. Hell, I don't think there was a thing I agreed with when Bush was in office.

But the harm he caused was measured and counterable.

To your next point, when did I see positive change during a democrats time? Are you asking me and what I think is positive, or are you asking me to say something that you think is positive and you'll agree with me if I bring it up? Because that's the thing. I can easily slap ACA up here and call it a day, which actually helped me and saved the lives of many people in this nation. But people consider it not enough, or easily gutted, therefore it doesn't count.

I can easily point to ending stop and frisk, which actually affected me on the daily when I was in NYC. But there were still some rogue cops who did it anyway, so I guess it didn't solve everything.

The emboldening of the LGBTQ+ community. 90 Billion invested in renewables, (the largest ever investment in clean energy), things that I consider a great first step. Not able to wipe away generations of built-upon turmoil, but where we're supposed to head towards. I see that. And yes, you might not. But whether something exists and whether we agree on the importance of the item at hand are two different things.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

The laissez faire, fuck the environment lobby has already won. The free market has ensured that by now pretty much the only game in town is hoping technology provides a miracle solution ($$$ profits to make!), because oterwise at best we're at damage limitation from bad to not quite as bad.

What does my post have to do with that? My point isn't that we should continue to do free market crap in regards to the environment, it's that the Democrats are full of it and don't actually care. A new party should be made based around environmentalism rather than just being one of many starving, abused puppies hoping the Democrats throw out some scraps for them.

 

[Agema]

What does my post have to do with that? My point isn't that we should continue to do free market crap in regards to the environment, it's that the Democrats are full of it and don't actually care. A new party should be made based around environmentalism rather than just being one of many starving, abused puppies hoping the Democrats throw out some scraps for them.

Great idea!

Also, African Americans should also abandon the Democrats for an African American Party. And the left should leave for a Social Democratic Party. And the remaining "Blue dogs" should split off and form a Moderate Party. And then all these little parties can pick up ~10% of the vote in FPTP elections, thus ensuring the Republican Party, which acts against their interests most, can claim the presidency and over 90% of Congress in every, single election.

That'll show everyone! Power to the people, eh?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Great idea!

Also, African Americans should also abandon the Democrats for an African American Party. And the left should leave for a Social Democratic Party. And the remaining "Blue dogs" should split off and form a Moderate Party. And then all these little parties can pick up ~10% of the vote in FPTP elections, thus ensuring the Republican Party, which acts against their interests most, can claim the presidency and over 90% of Congress in every, single election.

That'll show everyone! Power to the people, eh?

Yes actually. If a political party is clearly not actually interested in supporting your cause then why continue to support that party? In regards to the environment, they have shown through their actions that they do not care. Your train of logic is the same as that of an abuse victim that continues to stay with their partner.

 

[Eacaraxe]

You see Moderation to be a problem. I don't.

I see appeasement to be a problem, and Democrats' collective behavior for the past forty years has so far dramatically exceeded the definition of moderation that it can only be interpreted as appeasement. No, not appeasement of Republicans, but the donor class which has reduced the previously inexcusable duopoly of American governance to the level of kayfabe as the state continues devolving through kleptocracy towards outright failure.

To your next point, when did I see positive change during a democrats time?

The federal judiciary ended stop and frisk, Democrats fought for it. Just like Democrats fought against LGBTQ rights for forty years until public opinion turned against them; no, Democrats do not get cookies for simply figuring out they stand to lose more in votes and campaign contributions by continuing to blockade civil rights. Money for renewable resource development doesn't get a pass when it's quid pro quo to contributors, and actually inhibits development a holistic, regionally-friendly, renewable energy program that is effective and sensible.

We ended up with ACA because Obama somehow, despite all evidence to the contrary, believed Lieberman not a colossal backstabbing piece of crap and refused to let the well-deserved hammer fall even though every Senate Democrat up to and including Harry Reid wanted blood. Not even for being Joe Lieberman on health care, but for being Joe Lieberman on electoral strategy. Meanwhile, Pelosi sat in the house catering to every whim of legislative dead-enders, rather than demonstrating leadership for once in her miserable career. You can call it what you like, but I can think of no bigger legislative boondoggle and utter fustercluck in my life, representing the biggest failure in leadership of a generation, than Democrats fighting Democrats tooth and nail over the passage of a health care plan written by Republicans.

This is the root issue. You want to point to table scraps and say they're great steps in the name of progress, thanks to Democrats. No, they're table scraps, wrestled from the hands of Democrats by quite literal blood, sweat, and tears.

 

[Worgen]

Yes actually. If a political party is clearly not actually interested in supporting your cause then why continue to support that party? In regards to the environment, they have shown through their actions that they do not care. Your train of logic is the same as that of an abuse victim that continues to stay with their partner.

Your train of logic is that you don't want to win, you want to remain pure. It's easier for conservatives to all agree and unite on things then it is progressives, for instances almost all progressives want universal health care but they greatly disagree in how to go about it, republicans are much more unified in not wanting anything like that. So if you divide yourselves over the details then you end up with nothing since that's what the other side wants.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Your train of logic is that you don't want to win, you want to remain pure. It's easier for conservatives to all agree and unite on things then it is progressives, for instances almost all progressives want universal health care but they greatly disagree in how to go about it, republicans are much more unified in not wanting anything like that. So if you divide yourselves over the details then you end up with nothing since that's what the other side wants.

But you've just proved my point! The Republicans are united and accomplish what they set out to do, the Democrats are not and fail to accomplish anything. They are already divided over everything as they are now! The very thing you are arguing to not do is happening right now and the environment should be THE most important thing to everyone because it effects everyone equally because we all live on Earth. Yet despite the repercussions of failing to deal with it, it's like the third thing any Democrat actually talks about when it comes to policy.

Let me reiterate that. The one cause that should have everyone united behind getting laws passed for is not a primary concern for anyone, everyone is too busy pushing for issues that only benefit SOME people.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Your train of logic is that you don't want to win, you want to remain pure.

Expecting a party to actually work to advance its own platform, rather than rubber stamp the opposition's while making theatrics of "resistance" but manufacturing consent for its most insidious planks, isn't purity testing. That's pied piper'ing a party to the right, that's precisely what Democrats have done for 40 years running. Or, am I the only person noticing all these former Bush toadies, and their exceptionally toxic positions and funding, being welcomed with open arms by the Democratic party and its policy elites under the guise of "third way" ideology?

...It's easier for conservatives to all agree and unite on things then it is progressives...So if you divide yourselves over the details then you end up with nothing since that's what the other side wants.

Interesting you seemed to have missed that whole "tea party" thing.

 

[lil devils x]

Expecting a party to actually work to advance its own platform, rather than rubber stamp the opposition's while making theatrics of "resistance" but manufacturing consent for its most insidious planks, isn't purity testing. That's pied piper'ing a party to the right, that's precisely what Democrats have done for 40 years running. Or, am I the only person noticing all these former Bush toadies, and their exceptionally toxic positions and funding, being welcomed with open arms by the Democratic party and its policy elites under the guise of "third way" ideology?


Interesting you seemed to have missed that whole "tea party" thing.

The point with the tea party however, was they still voted Republican regardless of their differences, and they have elected some of the worst members of congress we have as of yet.

Democrats do still manage to advance their platform due to the makeup of their party:

The Six Wings Of The Democratic Party

There’s a lot of news right now about conflicts within the Democratic Party, and similar stories will likely continue to pop up for the next two years. Much of …

fivethirtyeight.com

Albeit far too slowly for some and usually takes a crap ton of bribes in the process.

 

[Worgen]

But you've just proved my point! The Republicans are united and accomplish what they set out to do, the Democrats are not and fail to accomplish anything. They are already divided over everything as they are now! The very thing you are arguing to not do is happening right now and the environment should be THE most important thing to everyone because it effects everyone equally because we all live on Earth. Yet despite the repercussions of failing to deal with it, it's like the third thing any Democrat actually talks about when it comes to policy.

Is that your point? Because it sounds more like you are attempting to say that the left should divide itself up. The human mind isn't really equipped to deal with global warming, it takes too long to really effect us and yearly weather patterns make it difficult to really concretely pin bad weather on global warming, at least in the publics mind. The democrats take steps to address it and when the republicans end up in power again they remove those steps and then some.

Interesting you seemed to have missed that whole "tea party" thing.

I said its easier, not that its 100% guaranteed. The tea party did a lot of damage to the republicans for awhile before their ideology became more of the republican party line.

 

[tstorm823]

It's only any use dropping the Democrats if there's a viable alternative to enact environmental policy.

As there isn't, dropping the Democrats just means another four years of trying to put out a housefire by pumping crude oil on it.

There is, in fact, a second party in the two-party system. If the Republicans are supposed to be the blockade stopping environmental policy, maybe put some environmental policy through the Republicans. Why waste the breath on the Democrats who are supposed to agree, but then instead propose measures that are 10% environmental, 90% screwing with Republican donors on purpose?