Dr. Fauci “not convinced” coronavirus developed naturally

Generals

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Sanctions and lawsuit and seizure of assets from Chinese based companies mostly.
Why only if it escaped from a lab? I mean, lab accidents can happen. That wouldn't be the problem. The explicit efforts at silencing people raising the alarm in the beginning and the continued lack of cooperation with the WHO are the real problems here. China should be forced to pay compensations to all badly hit countries or otherwise face sanctions.
But this will never happen because China will never admit they are responsible nor will the world have the courage needed to force them to.
 

Agema

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God, you must think Fauci is pretty stupid then...
No, I think Fauci is within reason.

Let's take the UK, which we must suspect has had a similar number infected to the USA, and has a similar number of people vaccinated (total vaccinations very similar, although the UK has more people with one shot out of two, and fewer with both). So infections in the UK should be going down, right? Er, no. Infections have actually gone up about 25% since relaxation of social controls in early May. That's pretty interesting, given over 50% of the population should be largely immune due to vaccination, plus all those naturally infected.

Also, there's a great deal of misunderstanding and general dickheadery going on. Let's imagine that "herd immunity" were reached at 50% of the population having been infected. So, the infection rate should decrease overall. Okay, fine. But when that herd immunity kicks in, the R rate is (theoretically) going to be ~0.99: actually, a very substantial number of people can still get infected, and the rate of decline of the disease is very slow. Also, we're talking about national; what this conceals is that there are likely to be localised areas where there isn't herd immunity where the infection can still propagate strongly.

Of course, if one understands R rate, this is in practice measured by infection rates. So of course you can have a national R rate under 1, until the disease hits a localised pocket with low rates of immunity, at which point infections rise rapidly that could send the R rate over 1. So this is why it gets complicated: national vaccination rates do not actually tell us whether certain subgroups of the population are safe.

So when we think about the task of the guy who is trying to ensure the continued survival, health and wellbeing of US citizens, his job is to encourage vaccination and take a caution-first approach to the data likely to save lives. Naturally, all the forces of Fauci-haters will disagree: the resentful Trumpistas who can't forgive him for disagreeing with their cult leader, the anti-vaxxers, the capitalists who want everything opened so they can earn more money, and the "But mah freedom!!!" brigade who think other people dying is a worthwhile sacrifice so they can eat inside at a restaurant and not have the inconvenience of wearing a mask (because a facemask is SO much of a burden). Obviously, these people will reach around for anything and everything to diss Fauci, because they have other objectives than the survival, health and wellbeing of Americans. Some of them get to write columns for national newspapers to spread their disagreement. And all the other ones will nod sagely at this article telling them what they want to believe, praising it to high heaven for being "correct" and Fauci "wrong", because mostly they don't have the faintest fucking idea, but they want to believe what they want to believe.

Yeah, I have Dunning-Kruger even though I've been right on just about everything... I called bullshit on the variants and the bullshit short-lived immunity long long ago.
This is the pride of a stopped clock on being right two times a day.

It's not that you actually knew anything, you made some guesses and got lucky on a few. This is like the pricks who boasted they predicted the financial crash in 2007, but who turned out to have also predicted financial crashes in 2004, 2001, 1997, 1992 - they just predict financial crashes all the time based on poor understanding and bad principles, and then congratulate themselves when finally dumb luck means one actually happens.

How long will covid-19 immunity last, short or long? This is a 50:50 chance to be right. There's no kudos for being right unless you have a good reason for why it will be right, and honestly, you know pretty much nothing. You can pick some papers that supported your point of view, but the fact you don't really understand what they say and just ignored all the ones that didn't agree with you means you guessed, and no-one deserves special plaudits for calling a coin-toss.

One can point out your claims on many "treatments" - hydroxychloroquine, quercetin, zinc, vitamin D, and very likely soon ivermectin, where you were just wrong. You have numerous wrong, overoptimistic statements on herd immunity: for instance last year claimed New York must be close to herd immunity, and were promptly proven wrong in the end of year surge. In fact, your hit rate is not at all good. You are just selectively remembering the things you guessed right.

This is not unusual. In fact, it's how tarot and horoscopes work: lashings of cognitive bias to ignore all the wrong stuff and cling to the right stuff.
 

Agema

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US is not as bad as the UK...
Isn't it? Let's have a think about that.

At the most basic face value of official figures, the USA does appear better. There's a current estimated death rate of 1873 / million in the USA to 1826 / million in the UK. So, er, congratulations on that 2.5% improvement, although bear in mind as deaths in the UK from covid have all but stopped (~0.1 / million / day) and the US is still dying at over 1.5 / million / day, the end margin is going to be rather narrower.

Next, let's bear in mind that word "estimated". Different countries have different ways of measuring and recording, and many covid-19 deaths are likely unrecorded, or some non-covid-19 deaths recorded as covid-19 deaths. In an extreme case, Belgium's way of recording covid-19 deaths is so broad that it has official figures reckoned around 50% higher than if it recorded them more like France, UK or USA. On the other extreme, Russia is under-recording covid-19 deaths to the tune of maybe half the reality. That puts that 2.5% into context: basically, nothing. Smaller than the statistical noise.

We also need to consider things like that rate of spread of disease relates to population density: more people in a smaller area, faster spread. (I stress that lower pop density does not protect in the long run - the same proportion are likely to contract the illness, it just takes longer to happen). The UK has a pop density of ~280 / km2. The USA has a pop density in the region of 30 / km2. This should - in theory - mean that with all else equal the USA should be "behind" the UK in infections and thus deaths. So with that sort of context, the fact that there is rough equivalence suggests maybe the UK did a slightly better job of disease control. Although contextually, both countries were poor compared to (for instance) Germany and the Netherlands, and abysmal compared to the likes of South Korea, Australia and New Zealand.

The end conclusion is that it is totally unclear whether the USA or UK has done worse. But we can absolutely conclude that both have done very badly.

Finally, there is little that is less edifying than a country that has heavily ballsed-up its disease control making feeble claims that some other country did worse. I find the slightly pathetic attempt to claim associated one-upmanship via national performance risible. Sorry to hurt your feelings by saying the USA was shit, but unfortunately for you I don't have anything like the same feeling of vicarious inferiority that my own country was also shit; although you should have gathered this given I've been extremely open over the months about just how poor the UK's response was.

In a way, the answer to this is "you do you". I hope the UK will learn from this and do better next time. I read a lot of Americans, and I don't have as much confidence the USA will because it seems to have many more people such as yourself who resent, downplay, and resist infection control measures. So I guess you guys can just go and die in heaps next time and find some other place to compare yourselves favourably to in order to pretend it's not as bad as all that.
 

Agema

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Paul asked if the Wuhan lab was given money (just money) and Fauci didn't answer the question.
Again - read carefully, when I say that video is dishonestly edited. Try finding a full one.

Fauci says that the funding to Wuhan was not for gain of function experiments. In other words, he is saying that funding went to Wuhan, but he's disputing Paul's implications about what it was used for. Paul then again tackled the general issue of whether the USA should have funded research there. Fauci points out that given the emergence of SARS from bats nearly 20 years ago, it was deemed responsible to get information about these SARS viruses. These bats and the local expertise are in China. In other words, he is again implicitly agreeing that US government money went to Wuhan, and explaining why.

The accusations in that video or from you are not fair or accurate.

* * *

Fauci points out that grants have progress reports and so on, and the progress reports can account for the research done in Wuhan with NIH funds. Paul sort of rolls back after the meeting in an interview with a much looser claim: some argument that money can be shunted around, so even if the NIH money was used to do certain research, some of it could have been sequestered or shuffled around to support gain of function research outside of the immediate grant aims. Well, okay. But the logical end point of this line of argument is the USA should not fund any research in China because the Chinese may misuse the funds.

Now, that's a valid policy decision. But it needs to be considered with all the relevant downsides: what goes on in Chinese research will become more opaque to the USA, there can be no technological collaboration, and if shit does go down in China and get to the USA (such as a novel pathogen), the USA is going to be even more dependent on what information China chooses to release to it than it is now, because it has cut itself off from other access.

It's also an inconsistent and ineffectual policy, because the majority of US research goes on in corporations, not government. Those companies then interact with China, invest in China, do research in China, get China to manufacture their designs, and at every step add to Chinese capabilities and research, by a lot. It is frankly bizarre to get pissy about the NIH kicking a few hundred thousand to China, when the USA via the private sector is pouring staggering billions, if not trillions into China. If I were an American worried about China, I know what I'd be most worried about. But let's see alleged libertarian Rand Paul argue to cease trade with China.
 

stroopwafel

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I think they only leave the possibility open because China is making itself unnecessarily suspect at this point by not disclosing safety protocols or other essential data from the lab. From what I understand nothing in the virus' genome hints at genetic editing techniques. Or it would be so advanced that it complety mimicks natural selection. Probably extremely unlikely. I think most scientists agree that the virus simply jumped from bat to some other (wild) animal to humans like 75% of viruses.
 

Generals

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I think they only leave the possibility open because China is making itself unnecessarily suspect at this point by not disclosing safety protocols or other essential data from the lab. From what I understand nothing in the virus' genome hints at genetic editing techniques. Or it would be so advanced that it complety mimicks natural selection. Probably extremely unlikely. I think most scientists agree that the virus simply jumped from bat to some other (wild) animal to humans like 75% of viruses.
It could also very well be a "natural" virus with which experiments were conducted (not necessarily genetic engineering) which escaped from the lab as well. I believe this is the scenario which scientists consider the second most likely after the "official version". I don't work in a lab but I suppose there are plenty of experiments which are conducted on bacteria and viruses which do not require any kind of genome altering procedures.
 
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stroopwafel

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It could also very well be a "natural" virus with which experiments were conducted (not necessarily genetic engineering) which escaped from the lab as well. I believe this is the scenario which scientists consider the second most likely after the "official version". I don't work in a lab but I suppose there are plenty of experiments which are conducted on bacteria and viruses which do not require any kind of genome altering procedures.
They discovered a closely related virus to covid in 2012 in some cave that gave miners pneumonia like symptoms. Serum samples were tested by the Wuhan laboratory. If there is any one suspect this would be it.


Still though the wiki mentions how RaTG13 is actually evidence of covid's natural origin.

RaTG13 bears strong resemblance to the SARS-CoV-2 virus (it shares 96.1% nucleotide similarity), and its existence is a supporting piece of evidence for SARS-CoV-2's natural origin.[9] The difference between RaTG13 and SARS-CoV-2 is in the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of the spike protein (S), which is the portion that binds to the receptor protein on the surface of the host cell and causes infection, indicating that the RaTG13 virus might not use angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) as its entry site into the cell as does SARS-CoV-2.[10] Further, the S protein of RaTG13 virus lacks the furin cleavage motif RRAR↓S.
[10]

Any experiment to make RaTG13 bind to ACE2 receptors would have involved genetic editing techniques which scientists would have seen.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Yeah, I have Dunning-Kruger even though I've been right on just about everything...
Dunning-Kruger isn't a syndrome or a disease. It's not something one "has". The Dunning-Kruger effect describes the tendency of people who are less competent at something to overestimate their own ability and for those who are more competent to underestimate it. In theory, everyone exhibits the Dunning-Kruger effect, though in different ways. Your belief that you have been "right on just about everything" is perhaps more precisely described as illusory superiority and may possibly be attributed to the cognitive bias wherein people are more likely to remember the stronger arguments for the things that they believe and the weaker arguments against (as they perceive them, anyway; it's not like we can use a collection of people attempting to remember something they disagree with as an objective measure of the quality of arguments). That little quirk of memory presumably helps to alleviate some amount of cognitive dissonance.
 

Agema

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They discovered a closely related virus to covid in 2012 in some cave that gave miners pneumonia like symptoms. Serum samples were tested by the Wuhan laboratory. If there is any one suspect this would be it.
Yes. This is a really interesting bit of knowledge.

The miners were shovelling bat guano. The cause of their pneumonia was not established at the time (I believe the doctors who treated them supposed a fungus or a different virus). The RaTG13 coronavirus was uncovered from that mine a few years later.

The other interesting thing is that this mine is in Yunnan province, around 1500 km from Wuhan (!!). So potentially, of course, for all that covid-19 came to attention in Wuhan, it's perfectly possible its origins could be from a very long way away if very similar viruses can be found at such a distance. With animal migrations and long distance trade and travel, things can really get around.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Yes. This is a really interesting bit of knowledge.

The miners were shovelling bat guano. The cause of their pneumonia was not established at the time (I believe the doctors who treated them supposed a fungus or a different virus). The RaTG13 coronavirus was uncovered from that mine a few years later.

The other interesting thing is that this mine is in Yunnan province, around 1500 km from Wuhan (!!). So potentially, of course, for all that covid-19 came to attention in Wuhan, it's perfectly possible its origins could be from a very long way away if very similar viruses can be found at such a distance. With animal migrations and long distance trade and travel, things can really get around.
Well we know what is one of the researchers who was listed at Wuhan lab did organise an expedition to collect either live bats or samples from them.

I may have brought this up before lol


So anyone for a video originally by Chinese State media before the outbreak happened showing the research into bats and the researchers not taking basic precautions?


Some highlights 7:52 handling bats with nitrile gloves not animal handling gloves

A team member showing his bat bite at at 8:48
I'm not fluent in Chinese but if anyone is maybe you can tell people more about what's being said because all I can say is SARS does appeal on one of the slides they also show.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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'Seizure assest from China based companies'
Oh like Russian agents and others haven't had assets frozen and eventually seized too. There's been literal gambling site operators who have had their assets seized in the USA before so full scale sanctions on China? you can bet they'd be confiscated.
 

Gordon_4

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Why only if it escaped from a lab? I mean, lab accidents can happen. That wouldn't be the problem. The explicit efforts at silencing people raising the alarm in the beginning and the continued lack of cooperation with the WHO are the real problems here. China should be forced to pay compensations to all badly hit countries or otherwise face sanctions.
But this will never happen because China will never admit they are responsible nor will the world have the courage needed to force them to.
It will never happen because reparations forced from a country that doesn’t want to give it happens only when their head of state has signed an agreement of surrender on the deck of your naval flagship. You want reparations out of the Chinese, then we’d have to go to and be the victor in a war.
 

Agema

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It will never happen because reparations forced from a country that doesn’t want to give it happens only when their head of state has signed an agreement of surrender on the deck of your naval flagship. You want reparations out of the Chinese, then we’d have to go to and be the victor in a war.
It's not only that, but let's imagine some doofus in the lab did screw up and infect the world. It is one hell of a stretch to deem China legally liable for that. One should need to hold China, as a whole, guilty of negligence or intent. That standard will not be met.
 

Thaluikhain

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It's not only that, but let's imagine some doofus in the lab did screw up and infect the world. It is one hell of a stretch to deem China legally liable for that. One should need to hold China, as a whole, guilty of negligence or intent. That standard will not be met.
Also, does it just apply to covid? Do other nations have to pay reparations for problems they've caused? Destabilising the Middle East, or producing greenhouse gases, say?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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It will never happen because reparations forced from a country that doesn’t want to give it happens only when their head of state has signed an agreement of surrender on the deck of your naval flagship. You want reparations out of the Chinese, then we’d have to go to and be the victor in a war.
nah the US or other nations (yes other nations have been considering lawsuits too) will just take it in taxing good from China with massive tariffs


It's not only that, but let's imagine some doofus in the lab did screw up and infect the world. It is one hell of a stretch to deem China legally liable for that. One should need to hold China, as a whole, guilty of negligence or intent. That standard will not be met.
When there was already claims and concerns over the safety measures being used it would mean the lab itself would see a leak at some point a case of when not if it would happen.

China lied, hid information, tried to accuse other countries of racism for trying to pull people out or telling people to evacuate, refused to shut down international flights, lied to the WHO, is alleged to have stolen info on vaccines to make it's own, held good in the country hostage, when sent aid they didn't pass it on but tried to profit from said aid selling it on. Have delivered substandard goods multiple times trying to get away with it because people were desperate and they hoped it would get lost in the other hassle oh due to negligence accidentally ended up poisoning a chunk of the worlds supply lines for chemicals needed to make testing kits and pretended it wasn't them who did it.

China has done more than enough BS to deserve some blowback even if by some miracle the virus didn't come from one of their labs.
 

Gordon_4

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nah the US or other nations (yes other nations have been considering lawsuits too) will just take it in taxing good from China with massive tariffs



When there was already claims and concerns over the safety measures being used it would mean the lab itself would see a leak at some point a case of when not if it would happen.

China lied, hid information, tried to accuse other countries of racism for trying to pull people out or telling people to evacuate, refused to shut down international flights, lied to the WHO, is alleged to have stolen info on vaccines to make it's own, held good in the country hostage, when sent aid they didn't pass it on but tried to profit from said aid selling it on. Have delivered substandard goods multiple times trying to get away with it because people were desperate and they hoped it would get lost in the other hassle oh due to negligence accidentally ended up poisoning a chunk of the worlds supply lines for chemicals needed to make testing kits and pretended it wasn't them who did it.

China has done more than enough BS to deserve some blowback even if by some miracle the virus didn't come from one of their labs.
Tariffs are the cost of doing business with a state. We can import tax and tariff and duty the shit out of China no problem; those are purely domestic policies. But the crowd screaming for reparations of the type we got out of Germany after both wars seem to be glossing over the whole fighting and winning a war first part of how that worked.
 

Thaluikhain

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Tariffs are the cost of doing business with a state. We can import tax and tariff and duty the shit out of China no problem; those are purely domestic policies. But the crowd screaming for reparations of the type we got out of Germany after both wars seem to be glossing over the whole fighting and winning a war first part of how that worked.
Shh, our government will start talking again about going to war with China.