Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

Agema

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None of the studies you've cited have anything that isn't correlational data or something that would unequivically translate to real-world scenarios. Also, there isn't consistent correlational data either.
1) You need to address what precisely is wrong with the "correlational", plus the surrounding context.
2) "Unequivocally" is a semantic weaselling out to create a fallacious position.

And, why have I (aka doctors that make strong arguments) been right more than you?
You haven't been right more than me. You just selectively remember the guesses you made that turned out right and ignore or refuse to admit all the times you were wrong.

I never stated that HCQ would be an anti-viral against covid.
You mean that you are too ignorant to realise you were touting HCQ as an antiviral, all that time you were waffling on about zinc and ionophores? Despite explicitly talking about the zinc interfering with viral infiltration / replication? Seriously dude, it's all there in the forums for people to see for themselves.

You were completely and utterly, totally wrong. Mr. Wrong McWrong of Wrongsville, Wronglandia. Start facing up to it.

One of them was tested in animals. What about the "balance of evidence"?
An interesting (i.e. hypocritical) claim for a man who just a few days ago dismissed experiments done on animals for being unsuitably representative of humans.

They why did all these news articles (and they are still doing it to this day) cite all these "experts" saying that?
Wow. It's like you can't read. These experts are actually saying "We don't really know".

And the meta-analyses for HCQ on early treatment? Covid has 2 phases, it's like saying giving steroids early doesn't help so that proves giving them later doesn't work.
Take your pick. Try https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crj/2020/4312519/, or https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iid3.374, or https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.14.20101774v3, or...
 
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Agema

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Yes, the CDC does say masks don't work for the flu.

Are you seriously telling us you can't tell the difference between the formal opinion of the CDC and the opinion of authors to a scientific journal published by the CDC?

Guess that's yet another thing you got wrong, to add to the mountain of other instances you were wrong but refuse to admit.
 

Seanchaidh

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It is basic fucking physics that masks don't work outside because the viral particles are basically immediately dispersed by the natural flow of air.

Near-absent are examples of transmission at beaches and other open spaces where breezes disperse airborne particles, distancing is easier, and humidity and sunlight render the coronavirus less viable.
there is a very big difference between "not working" and potentially being redundant in a setting where it is often (but not always) possible for other conditions to be enough to prevent transmission. Counterexample: Distancing is not always 'easier' on Manhattan city streets. For that matter, those streets are also often in the shade. There is such a thing as dry weather. And calm weather. And fucking night time-- it happens once every day!

Lots of people don't get flu vaccines, I didn't get them until work forced them. Also, the flu vaccine doesn't help against the common cold and did you get sick in years prior just shopping? Just about every time I got a head cold/flu (who knows when it's a flu or cold unless you get tested) was when friends or co-workers were sick. Just passing by someone isn't going to get you sick or we'd be sick all the fucking time.
I've had a lot of colds in my life. Weirdly, none of them during this pandemic.

Anyway, the reasoning you're sharing above is infantile. Yes, you're more likely to get a virus from someone who you you're exposed to quite a lot than someone else. Shock, amazement. That doesn't make it impossible to get it from someone else.
 

Phoenixmgs

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If your book honestly compares wearing masks to being wrongfully imprisoned, then it's a shitty book.
I wasn't referring to masks, at least follow the conversation if you're gonna quote somebody.

Wow, you really are bad at reading.

1) That's not the CDC saying that, that's a paper sent to the CDC that they published likely because they're required to publish any properly accredited paper sent to them
2) That's not what the paper says, as it's a meta-analysis of other works and moreso points out that previously written papers on mask usage were poorly done. If you read what they say past "masks don't work" you get:

Their paper still understands what everyone is telling you, masks work, but only when people properly comply with proper usage and people hate complying with proper usage outside of east Asia. That's why you don't see mandates work but do see Japan and Taiwan have infection rates tens or hundreds of times lower than America and a lot of the western world.
Ok, but there's still literally no study that says masks work. If you think the studies meta-analyzed in that paper were underpowered, then all the correlational data everyone else is posting for masks is as underpowered and probably more so. The paper definitely doesn't say masks work (in theory doesn't mean they work), I can read that much, you're just seeing what you want to believe. In theory, lots of fucking things work that don't actually work. Here's an analysis of infections and mask mandates and actual mask use across all the US states for the WHOLE YEAR (instead of just a month or 2 like other studies) showing there wasn't any significant difference in infection numbers and masking.

You know an argument is bad when the person making it has to throw everything about the situation being discussed away and apply an entirely different situation to still make their point. So I'll just re-iterate that I understand what you're saying about lockdowns taking a mental toll on people but compared to people actually dying it is a small price to pay. It is that second part that you stubbornly refuse to adress and no amount of faffing can get you past it.
All I'm trying to show is that living life isn't binary, there's a spectrum thus giving the extreme example. A lot of people basically made their home a prison so-to-speak. People that haven't seen friends and family for a year have lost some of their life plain and simple. Not seeing a movie in a theater is a minor inconvenience and nobody saying theaters closed was a loss of life. Everything has it's own place on the spectrum. Missing say one weekend of doing stuff isn't too big of a deal but missing 50 weekends of doing stuff is a much bigger deal. And people having mental issues that take them longer to get back to their lives is more life lost. Kids missing school is a big deal as well. We don't just live to be alive and to say otherwise is disingenuous. Lastly, there's nothing even showing the lockdowns did anything that helped.
 

Phoenixmgs

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1) You need to address what precisely is wrong with the "correlational", plus the surrounding context.
2) "Unequivocally" is a semantic weaselling out to create a fallacious position.
What do you mean I have to address what is wrong with correlational? The same god damn thing that you say is wrong with the correlational vitamin d studies. Just because after a mask mandate there was a decline in cases doesn't mean masks were the reason why as there's numerous other reasons that could have caused the decline. Like if you implemented mask mandates right before the Fall spike, you'd still see cases increase but that doesn't mean masks didn't work either. It's like saying the flu went away because we distanced and cleaned better but it could be viral interference as well.

If I'm weaseling then you're weaseling. Just because something in theory works, doesn't mean it'll work in the real world. Like the in vivo studies of things don't mean it'll work in the real world either. For the thing you want to be true, you consider that as valid evidence, but the stuff you don't want to be true, you say it's not good evidence. I'm literally only applying your burden of proof to your things, then you claim WEASEL!!!

You haven't been right more than me. You just selectively remember the guesses you made that turned out right and ignore or refuse to admit all the times you were wrong.
And tell me the times I was wrong (which you can't even prove that I was wrong).

You mean that you are too ignorant to realise you were touting HCQ as an antiviral, all that time you were waffling on about zinc and ionophores? Despite explicitly talking about the zinc interfering with viral infiltration / replication? Seriously dude, it's all there in the forums for people to see for themselves.

You were completely and utterly, totally wrong. Mr. Wrong McWrong of Wrongsville, Wronglandia. Start facing up to it.
Find the message that where I said HCQ was an antiviral. I said it's primarily for the inflammatory modulation and ionophore for zinc. And you still don't have any evidence saying early HCQ doesn't work...

An interesting (i.e. hypocritical) claim for a man who just a few days ago dismissed experiments done on animals for being unsuitably representative of humans.
Animal tests just aren't definite is all.

Wow. It's like you can't read. These experts are actually saying "We don't really know".
Nope, he definitely claimed immunity is short-lived. He didn't just say we don't know or else there wouldn't have been tons of articles claiming short-lived immunity.
“And immunity to this thing looks rather fragile — it looks like some people might have antibodies for a few months and then it might wane, so it’s not looking like a safe bet,” he said. “It’s a very deceitful virus and immunity to it is very confusing and rather short-lived.”

1st and last aren't early treatment and the 2nd is seeing if giving people basically a toxic dose of HCQ is bad, shocker it's bad.

Are you seriously telling us you can't tell the difference between the formal opinion of the CDC and the opinion of authors to a scientific journal published by the CDC?

Guess that's yet another thing you got wrong, to add to the mountain of other instances you were wrong but refuse to admit.
Sorry for posting study instead of some vague guidelines.

Funny how the CDC doesn't even have the word "mask" on their flu prevention page...

there is a very big difference between "not working" and potentially being redundant in a setting where it is often (but not always) possible for other conditions to be enough to prevent transmission. Counterexample: Distancing is not always 'easier' on Manhattan city streets. For that matter, those streets are also often in the shade. There is such a thing as dry weather. And calm weather. And fucking night time-- it happens once every day!
Not working or being redundant means it doesn't do anything, which is the whole point, masks outside are pointless and we've known that the whole time. Unless you're like body to body with people outside, you're fine and even then you're probably fine.
 

Agema

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What do you mean I have to address what is wrong with correlational? The same god damn thing that you say is wrong with the correlational vitamin d studies.
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with correlational vitamin D studies. They are better or worse on an individual basis depending on their methodology and analysis. You picked a fuckton of shit ones. Maybe you should have picked better ones, if you had the ability to recognise them.

Although the other substantial problem is that the data points heavily that vitamin D is only likely to be beneficial in the vitamin D deficient, as a whole lot of papers seem to show vitamin D not doing very much.

Just because after a mask mandate there was a decline in cases doesn't mean masks were the reason why as there's numerous other reasons that could have caused the decline. Like if you implemented mask mandates right before the Fall spike, you'd still see cases increase but that doesn't mean masks didn't work either. It's like saying the flu went away because we distanced and cleaned better but it could be viral interference as well.
If I'm weaseling then you're weaseling. Just because something in theory works, doesn't mean it'll work in the real world. Like the in vivo studies of things don't mean it'll work in the real world either. For the thing you want to be true, you consider that as valid evidence, but the stuff you don't want to be true, you say it's not good evidence. I'm literally only applying your burden of proof to your things, then you claim WEASEL!!!
You're applying my burden of proof, but without my understanding of what's good science and bad science. This approximates to what computer scientists call this "garbage in, garbage out". Or as I read someone deliciously put it about Pierre Kory's review on ivermectin, "A meta-analysis of junk produces meta-junk".

And tell me the times I was wrong (which you can't even prove that I was wrong).
HCQ multiple times (mechanism of action, effectiveness, circumstances of effectiveness), whether children can catch and spread covid, vitamin D, ivermectin, what a histogram is, whether New York could see another increase in cases, etc.

This is not an exhaustive list.

Find the message that where I said HCQ was an antiviral. I said it's primarily for the inflammatory modulation and ionophore for zinc. And you still don't have any evidence saying early HCQ doesn't work...

"Also, an ionophore + zinc has been shown to hamper virus replication with SARS-COV-1, which is extremely similar to SARS-COV-2. Here's a study here and here that show zinc with an ionophore helps vs only taking an ionophore (like HCQ) or only taking zinc. HCQ helps because it lets the zinc into the cells to interfere with virus replication."

Although bear in mind this is just the once. You've argued it numerous times the year before too, probably in v1 forums. If your argument is literally nothing more than you did not mention the word "antiviral", you can get knotted, because "interfere with virus replication" is unmistakably the the description of antiviral activity.

Nope, he definitely claimed immunity is short-lived. He didn't just say we don't know or else there wouldn't have been tons of articles claiming short-lived immunity.
“And immunity to this thing looks rather fragile — it looks like some people might have antibodies for a few months and then it might wane, so it’s not looking like a safe bet,” he said. “It’s a very deceitful virus and immunity to it is very confusing and rather short-lived.”
It "looks like"; "some people might have antibodies for a few months and then it might wane"; "it's not a safe bet".

1st and last aren't early treatment and the 2nd is seeing if giving people basically a toxic dose of HCQ is bad, shocker it's bad.
Wait. Didn't you argue for months that the safety profile of HCQ was excellent, and now you're saying it's toxic? Make your mind up!

Not working or being redundant means it doesn't do anything, which is the whole point, masks outside are pointless and we've known that the whole time. Unless you're like body to body with people outside, you're fine and even then you're probably fine.
Right. So if you are, say, in an open-air sports stadium seated next to someone, you are literally body to body with them (unless they have seats with more generous width than any sports stadium I've ever been in). If you are walking down a crowded city pavement, you are pretty much body-to-body with other people.

These guys are all in a pub garden, outdoors. My, they look awfully close. Like, body-to-body close.
1623419294270.png

And I say again, infection control is about minimising risk, not hand-waving "Oh, it'll probably be okay!"
 

Buyetyen

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I wasn't referring to masks, at least follow the conversation if you're gonna quote somebody.
Still a shitty book. We never even had a proper lockdown in the US. Don't compare that shit to wrongful imprisonment, it just makes you sound spoiled and out-of-touch.

A lot of people basically made their home a prison so-to-speak. People that haven't seen friends and family for a year have lost some of their life plain and simple.
Still not the same thing as wrongful imprisonment.

And people having mental issues that take them longer to get back to their lives is more life lost.
As someone with mental health issues, do not presume to speak for me.

Lastly, there's nothing even showing the lockdowns did anything that helped.
We never even had proper lockdowns in the US anyway.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Ok, but there's still literally no study that says masks work. If you think the studies meta-analyzed in that paper were underpowered, then all the correlational data everyone else is posting for masks is as underpowered and probably more so. The paper definitely doesn't say masks work (in theory doesn't mean they work), I can read that much, you're just seeing what you want to believe. In theory, lots of fucking things work that don't actually work. Here's an analysis of infections and mask mandates and actual mask use across all the US states for the WHOLE YEAR (instead of just a month or 2 like other studies) showing there wasn't any significant difference in infection numbers and masking.
I'm just going to post this again until you learn how to read.

Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission. Thus, education on the proper use and disposal of used face masks, including hand hygiene, is also needed.
Please put 2 and 2 together.

Sorry for posting study instead of some vague guidelines.

Funny how the CDC doesn't even have the word "mask" on their flu prevention page...
Please read your own sources before you post them.


Right there under recommended precautions. I will however criticize the CDC for splitting this information up.
 

Phoenixmgs

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There's nothing intrinsically wrong with correlational vitamin D studies. They are better or worse on an individual basis depending on their methodology and analysis. You picked a fuckton of shit ones. Maybe you should have picked better ones, if you had the ability to recognise them.

Although the other substantial problem is that the data points heavily that vitamin D is only likely to be beneficial in the vitamin D deficient, as a whole lot of papers seem to show vitamin D not doing very much.
You're missing that point that the vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths were in people with vitamin d deficiency with regards to covid.

You're applying my burden of proof, but without my understanding of what's good science and bad science. This approximates to what computer scientists call this "garbage in, garbage out". Or as I read someone deliciously put it about Pierre Kory's review on ivermectin, "A meta-analysis of junk produces meta-junk".
Mask correlational data is not good science because the correlational data isn't even consistent.

HCQ multiple times (mechanism of action, effectiveness, circumstances of effectiveness), whether children can catch and spread covid, vitamin D, ivermectin, what a histogram is, whether New York could see another increase in cases, etc.

This is not an exhaustive list.
You still haven't proved HCQ doesn't work, kids don't spread covid, vitamin d has more data for it than masks do, every official agency stance for ivermectin is "we don't know" so no proof it doesn't work (and more and more places keep approving ivermectin), I'm not sure what I said about New York (I'm pretty sure it would've been specifically NYC though) but NYC's fall spike was less than the 1st wave and testing was way better in the fall (compare that to say Chicago). You can add in how I stated variants were bullshit, masking outside was bullshit, constantly cleaning shit was bullshit, short-term immunity was bullshit. I guess I was wrong about masks though... got'em!!!

What have you actually been right about? You still claim that immunity is a 50/50 coin flip even though you have the POWER of HINDSIGHT.


"Also, an ionophore + zinc has been shown to hamper virus replication with SARS-COV-1, which is extremely similar to SARS-COV-2. Here's a study here and here that show zinc with an ionophore helps vs only taking an ionophore (like HCQ) or only taking zinc. HCQ helps because it lets the zinc into the cells to interfere with virus replication."

Although bear in mind this is just the once. You've argued it numerous times the year before too, probably in v1 forums. If your argument is literally nothing more than you did not mention the word "antiviral", you can get knotted, because "interfere with virus replication" is unmistakably the the description of antiviral activity.
Yes, the ZINC is the antiviral not the HCQ, that was my whole point the entire time. So a HCQ ONLY trial to see if the HCQ group has less virus X days later is rather pointless. The study you are quoting me is literally saying that a zinc ionophore (for example HCQ though not used it that specific study) alone or zinc alone didn't do anything with regards to viral replication but together they did. So why would a HCQ only trial show less virus? And how would that prove me wrong? And you keep telling I don't understand studies...

It "looks like"; "some people might have antibodies for a few months and then it might wane"; "it's not a safe bet".
Funny how you omit the following "immunity to it is very confusing and rather short-lived" that isn't preceded by a "looks like". Even Fauci in that article was saying if covid behaves like other coronaviruses, then immunity will not be long. So he's looking at common cold coronaviruses vs the coronavirus that is most similar to covid and basing his prediction off that ignorant info, which is literally what I said "experts" were doing.

Wait. Didn't you argue for months that the safety profile of HCQ was excellent, and now you're saying it's toxic? Make your mind up!
When you give people the recommended dose based on like 50 years of data, HCQ is plenty safe especially for just a few days. When you give a toxic dose of it, it's toxic obviously. Your safety study was giving people 1200mg of it per day, which is at the toxicity level for some people as the toxic dose of HCQ is 20mg/kg. You can kill someone with too much of anything, even water. Funny how you say you can read studies way better than me but provide shit studies of giving people near toxic to toxic doses of a drug to prove the drug isn't safe. You know that saying "garbage in, garbage out" right?

Right. So if you are, say, in an open-air sports stadium seated next to someone, you are literally body to body with them (unless they have seats with more generous width than any sports stadium I've ever been in). If you are walking down a crowded city pavement, you are pretty much body-to-body with other people.

These guys are all in a pub garden, outdoors. My, they look awfully close. Like, body-to-body close.


And I say again, infection control is about minimising risk, not hand-waving "Oh, it'll probably be okay!"
That is not how the street looks when walking down it during normal times. Plus if you're just trying to walk by, there's plenty of room to walk by without going through the crowd (I've been to New Year's in downtown Chicago where it gets that crowed or worse and you can walk around groupings like that outside of bars). And like I said, in that situation, if you are a risk adverse person, put on a mask if you want as it may help in those type of crowds outside (but that of course is far from normal and you probably wouldn't be there to begin with as why are you going to a bar if you're that concerned about the virus?), but I would still feel as comfortable with or without a mask in that setting. Lastly, you'd rather have those people outside than inside if you're part of infection control and trying to minimize risk that's why yelling at people at say the beach is like the dumbest thing ever. So, you'd rather have those people congregate indoors vs at the beach?
 

Phoenixmgs

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Still a shitty book. We never even had a proper lockdown in the US. Don't compare that shit to wrongful imprisonment, it just makes you sound spoiled and out-of-touch.
Some people have made their homes basically their own prison. Also, the main point is that living "life" is a spectrum, just being alive doesn't equate to living life, it's not a binary thing that you're always living life when you're alive and only not living life when you're dead. If that were true, being wrongfully imprisoned would mean you didn't miss any life. Some life was missed by people not seeing family and friends for a year.

Still not the same thing as wrongful imprisonment.
It's a spectrum like I said. Wrongful imprisonment is just one extreme end of that spectrum thus showing that it IS a spectrum and not just alive/dead is all that matters.

As someone with mental health issues, do not presume to speak for me.
I didn't know speaking generally was speaking for someone specifically. I'm just saying if someone is taking longer to get back to normal, then they have lost more of their life than someone that's been back to normal for months. I won't speak for people with mental health issues, I'll let other Behavioral Health doctors speak for them like this article or that article. There's tons of these kind of articles out there and for someone like me, I don't really understand how it's hard to take off the mask, just take it off, easy, but I don't have any mental health issues.

We never even had proper lockdowns in the US anyway.
Yeah, I know, I meant US lockdowns obviously. We had the option to a "pull a China" but that would be a very grey ethical area because you're straight locking people down and basically martyring the currently sick to stop future sick people from getting sick and dying. I doubt people in America or most countries would be ethically OK with that. What we did in the 1st month or so obviously had quite an impact on slowing the spread, but you can't continue that for a year+, no country was able to do that as you either stopped the initial spread, you were China, or you just "lived" with the virus like most countries that didn't stop the initial spread and had a 1st wave.

I am getting very tired of your handwringing. You keep re-iterating a variation of this point over and over as if I hadn't already acknowledged it, which I've done multiple times including admitting that I myself suffered anxiety and depressive symptoms due to isolation. But you keep refusing to adress the fact that I'm not calling this out as wrong, but that I think it is a preferable alternative to people literally dying. You are refusing to look at the big picture, because if you'd do you'd have to own up to the callous disregard for other peoples' lives that you manifest.
If say 50 million people in the US "lost" a year of their life from not doing things, that's 50 million years of life. We have 600k people that died and just say that the average years of life lost there was 10 years (as older people were hit far harder obviously), that's 6 million years of life lost. Now I'm not saying that completely missing your last years of life because you died and people losing a decent amount of a year of their life is equal by any means, but I'm saying is there's life lost on both sides of that scale, would you agree? I'm not going to proclaim more life was lost by the living because that is a much larger number in this hypothetical. However, there is a point when the life lost by the living will begin to tip the scales (and maybe it has or maybe it hasn't), I don't know when that is or anything obviously, I'm just pointing out that fact. Also, we see that places that have been open for months and months and months like Florida really did no worse than places with heavy restrictions so have these restrictions that have cost the life and finances of the living actually saved much death at all? I want to know what does more harm and have us not do that, that's really it and only looking at the number of deaths is not by any means the only life lost (or harm) in the equation.

I'm just going to post this again until you learn how to read.

Please put 2 and 2 together.


Please read your own sources before you post them.



Right there under recommended precautions. I will however criticize the CDC for splitting this information up.
Huh? That quote isn't in the study I posted. Oh, that's from the other study I posted that's on the CDC page (had to google that in quotes to figure it out). Also, it says "might" because we don't have any definitive data that masks actually work whether it's the flu or covid.

Again, huh? I don't see anything regarding recommended precautions the word "recommend" isn't even found in that page. Unless you're talking about the picture which shows people wearing masks outside, which is pointless. Several experts have said kids don't need masks period. I don't get why the CDC still says to use sanitizer when we know that it rarely spreads through surfaces.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Huh? That quote isn't in the study I posted. Oh, that's from the other study I posted that's on the CDC page (had to google that in quotes to figure it out). Also, it says "might" because we don't have any definitive data that masks actually work whether it's the flu or covid.
Good job confirming you don't read what you post.

"Read this study that says masks are useless!"
"It actually doesn't."
"Huh? I didn't see that."

Again, huh? I don't see anything regarding recommended precautions the word "recommend" isn't even found in that page. Unless you're talking about the picture which shows people wearing masks outside, which is pointless. Several experts have said kids don't need masks period. I don't get why the CDC still says to use sanitizer when we know that it rarely spreads through surfaces.
Yes. Under recommended precautions is a link, in the flu page, to that page, where they tell you to keep a mask on when you go outside.

Congrats on not paying attention to your own posts, again.
 

Agema

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You're missing that point that the vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths were in people with vitamin d deficiency with regards to covid.
Sigh. There was one study that suggested so which the usual amateur / Wellness peanut gallery spread all over social media and thus how you found out. The wider scientific evidence, however, does not support this claim.

Mask correlational data is not good science because the correlational data isn't even consistent.
Yawn.

What have you actually been right about? You still claim that immunity is a 50/50 coin flip even though you have the POWER of HINDSIGHT.
What on earth are you talking about?

Yes, the ZINC is the antiviral not the HCQ, that was my whole point the entire time.
No, HCQ in this theory is an antiviral, because it is a drug that is changing the biological activity of the body in such a way that it impedes viral replication, in this case by increasing zinc internalisation. What you are trying to argue here is a bit like saying opioids are not analgesics, because it's actually the opioid receptors they activate that do the analgesia.

You are such an amateur.

So he's looking at common cold coronaviruses vs the coronavirus that is most similar to covid and basing his prediction off that ignorant info, which is literally what I said "experts" were doing.
The reason you were so breezily confident about this is primarily because you are so ignorant.

Your safety study was giving people 1200mg of it per day, which is at the toxicity level for some people as the toxic dose of HCQ is 20mg/kg.
1) Hydroxychloroquine has a bioavailability of ~70%, which means they are only taking in about two-thirds of that. So for a 60kg human, the peak HCQ will be around 13 mg/kg (actually slightly lower, due to clearance occurring whilst the drug is not fully absorbed). This is also why acute HCQ toxicity is generally believed to be upon taking 2000mg, not 1200mg.
2) This 2000mg causes mild acute toxicity. Also bear in mind HCQ has a half life of about 4h: So from a notional peak of 13 mg/kg, they'll be down to 6.5mg/kg in 4h. Doses with high risk of fatality is reckoned to be ~4000mg.
3) Established malaria treatment with HCQ can already use similar doses (~13 mg/kg), so this is a high, but established dose.

That is not how the street looks when walking down it during normal times.
Depends on the street, doesn't it? If you haven't experienced all the streets in the world, it's not your place to say.

I would still feel as comfortable with or without a mask in that setting.
No-one cares what you feel comfortable with. An organisation whose job is infection control is there to provide advice to control infections, not decide what Phoenixmgs is comfortable with. They will necessarily be inclined to caution.
 
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Buyetyen

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Some people have made their homes basically their own prison. Also, the main point is that living "life" is a spectrum, just being alive doesn't equate to living life, it's not a binary thing that you're always living life when you're alive and only not living life when you're dead. If that were true, being wrongfully imprisoned would mean you didn't miss any life. Some life was missed by people not seeing family and friends for a year.

It's a spectrum like I said. Wrongful imprisonment is just one extreme end of that spectrum thus showing that it IS a spectrum and not just alive/dead is all that matters.
Dude, just admit it was a shitty analogy and quit fucking digging.

I didn't know speaking generally was speaking for someone specifically. I'm just saying if someone is taking longer to get back to normal, then they have lost more of their life than someone that's been back to normal for months. I won't speak for people with mental health issues, I'll let other Behavioral Health doctors speak for them like this article or that article. There's tons of these kind of articles out there and for someone like me, I don't really understand how it's hard to take off the mask, just take it off, easy, but I don't have any mental health issues.
So you'll speak for me, but using someone else's words. Classy.

Yeah, I know, I meant US lockdowns obviously. We had the option to a "pull a China" but that would be a very grey ethical area because you're straight locking people down and basically martyring the currently sick to stop future sick people from getting sick and dying. I doubt people in America or most countries would be ethically OK with that. What we did in the 1st month or so obviously had quite an impact on slowing the spread, but you can't continue that for a year+, no country was able to do that as you either stopped the initial spread, you were China, or you just "lived" with the virus like most countries that didn't stop the initial spread and had a 1st wave.
I give up. You speak with a fool's confidence and there's no getting through to that.
 

stroopwafel

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It is frankly laughable that you are trying to make this into some basic equation about years lost, because that's not how any ethical or philosophical discipline judges human life. Humanism, to which I and most of the worlds healthcare workers are devout disciples, is in fact pretty explicit about this: A human life is priceless. It is invaluable in and of itself because it encompasses the entire human existence summed up into one unique individual. Doesn't matter if that individual has a 100 years or a single year left in their life, you can't put a price on their life, because you can't appraise human life like you would a car, a computer or even cattle. There will be times when we can not save a human life or when we have to make choices between which lives to save because we lack the resources to save all of them, but if a life can be saved then it should be saved if possible. If that means some other people, people not in immediate danger of dying, has to give up some comfort, maybe even suffer for a limited time, then that's a trade off we should make every single time. No one should have to die so that a bunch of other people can live a slightly better life.
It’s an honest sentiment but it presupposes that life is worth living and that it should last as long as possible. Ofcourse that is not anyone’s decision to make but when medical intervention is the default answer to sickness and disease that decision is made regardless. Yes you can say medical help can be declined but by the same token many requests to euthanasia are rejected or even illegal. It raises the question to what degree someone has agency over their own life or death.

It is estimated that dementia will be the number one cause of death because people no longer die of natural causes in the developed world. If you think the value of life is absolute then you obviously have never been in a dementia home. Recently there was a former college professor, proud and educated in life. Someone whose self-worth depended on his involvement in intellectual affairs and social standing. Now, his brain was scrambled eggs. Waiting in apathy as memories dissolved. For what? So he could shit his pants and masturbate in the hallway one more time as he gets carried away by nurses? That heart surgery ten years prior allowed him to dodge death but is his fate provided by medical science that much better?

What is a life that lasts a really long time but isn’t really worth living? How many people would be actually grateful to become very old? Your profession’s answer to these existential questions can’t be considered independent from the wider cultural context where death is rejected and pushed out of sight. The fundamental problem this raises is the unwaivering belief in the malleability of life and our detachment from the natural world through scientific progress and medical intervention. Human wellbeing and such becomes medicalized and it’s value determined through the prism of social ideals and the ever narrowing definition of ‘acceptable’ thought and behavior.

The end result can be seen everywhere. Someone doesn’t have a shittly life and a normal reaction to it no they are ‘depressed’ because of some ‘chemical imbalance’. Gran didn’t die of old age in the elderly home with covid as the last straw no she died because of the ‘pandemic’ and she needed to keep on living so her kids can continue visiting her once a year to soothe their guilty conscience. Someone doesn’t abuse heavy painkillers to numb their emotional pain because they are socially marginalized no they are helpful opiates prescribed by a friendly doctor who in no way represents the interests of the pharmaceutical industry. Someone doesn’t hang themselves after a lifetime of lonelineness no they died because of some underlying psychiatric condition which the psychiatric caregivers could ofcourse have totally prevented(despite the suicide numbers never going down).

The list goes on but the central argument you postulate is that life itself is malleable but even a relatively benign virus like covid has shown how much of that belief is an illusion. The honest question that remains is how much of the lockdown measures are proportionate to the ills you try to prevent. This is not unique to covid. Even with traffic accidents they measure the amount of deaths compared to the investment in infrastructure. Resources spent on covid care are resources that can’t be spent elsewhere. This isn’t just an ‘inconvenience’ for party peeps who can’t go clubbin for a year. The repercussions are far and wide in terms of monetary decisions that are made to the grip of the elite on society to laws that enable easy overturn of civil liberties for the good of ‘public health’. Post-9/11 surveillance state anyone? There is a cost to every decision you make but at this point in time it is impossible to conclude if the years won for people who were already mostly old and frail with lockdowns are proportionate to the long lasting social effects such as astronomical state deficits for future generations.
 
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Seanchaidh

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You are not pointing out a fact. You are conflating the literal definition of life (to be alive) with a popular euphemism for living a fulfilling life (ie. "I am truly alive when I free climb"). They are not the same and can not be judged the same. That I even have to point this out explicitly for you is really all the proof anyone needs to see that you do not have the necessary understanding of this subject.
And if we're going to talk about quality of life, situations like this seem relevant:


Yes, in some ways, lockdown was an improvement on our dystopian capitalist nightmare.