Lifting Masks = Back to Getting Down With The Sickness

Agema

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There's no non-correlational studies cited unless you're talking about animal studies and animal studies can be way off with regards to how stuff actually works with humans.
What you're talking about with "correlational studies" is in effect just an attempt to ignore data. You're very good at that.

THAT bullshit "builds up the picture". The protests/riots were outdoors where transmission basically doesn't happen and the kids in summer camp basically lived together indoors. Talk about wanting to see what you believe...
Oh, the hypocrisy.

That study you cited was not even studying something that was said that HCQ could possibly do. People weren't suggesting it because it's an antiviral.
"People weren't suggesting it because it's an antiviral"? Holy fucking shit, are you deranged? You literally spent months touting HCQ as an antiviral yourself!

And the study used young people, which is kinda pointless since most of them don't need anything to beat the virus. Even then the HCQ group showed fewer hospitalizations, which is the whole point.
Or, to summarise, you don't understand the study.

Yeah, there is. Oh, I don't know, look at the virus that is closest to it, which is SARS and immunity is still lasting for it.
Er, really? The only way to test the effectiveness of immunity to SARS-CoV-1 is to infect someone with it who has already had it. Where has this occurred?

SARS is so close it even confers immunity to covid.
Who has done this study, and where is it?

You can look at things other than antibodies like B/T cells...
So again, here all you are trying to do is present hindsight knowledge as if you knew it at the time.

Basically all my guess have turned out right. The more things I get right, the less likely it's luck.
Ignoring all the stuff you got wrong...

And if you did a 200 person study and all the people were very high-risk and have a high mortality rate, the results would be more significant. However, when you have say 10 of those studies that you can meta-analyze, then you got much better data.
And those meta-analyses also show that you were wrong. The more things you get wrong, the more likely what you got right is luck.

I'm fully aware of how much of a spread there is in getting a 1 out of 20 result, I play DnD.
Which is really just an incredibly graceless way of admitting that I am right.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I mean, it is cute that you're trying to lecture a nurse on the importance of Quality of Life. A majority of a what nursing entails is ensuring or improving QoL and we're trained to consider all aspects of the term, whether that means absence of illness, psychosocial well being, retention of autonomy or any of the other myriad things that goes into the term.

I am well aware that lockdowns suck, I should since I was one of the people that suffered an acute anxiety episode after not meeting people for four months last year. However, I am also not egocentric enough to think that my desire to hang with my friends is more important then the survival of other people. QoL stops being important the moment life saving becomes a priority. It is better that you have broken ribs from CPR then that you died because no one wanted to inconvenience you. It is preferable that people stay at home depressed then allow them to run free and have other people die because of that irresponsibility.

Seriously. I don't get why this is a discussion. Opposing lockdown because it sucked for you and you're totally fine with other people dying so you can have your liberty and happiness is such an absolutely callous moral position that I have no qualms about calling anyone espousing it an egotistic asshole.
I'm opposing lockdowns (US lockdowns that weren't really lockdowns) because they didn't work. You can just compare the more restrictive states vs the less restrictive states and there's no consistency in the results (deaths per capita). Life is partly the quality aspect too. Are you gonna say living in jail for your whole life is a full life? Are you gonna say old people that will die before this Christmas not being able to have a Christmas last year didn't miss out on some life (luckily I saw my grandma every holiday last year and she just passed away last week)? Just being alive isn't the only aspect of life. Sure complaining about not seeing a movie in a theater vs home streaming is a rather minor inconvenience but there is a spectrum where you have that and then you have other things that definitely bleed into missing life (especially when you keep stacking them on top of each other). To say people staying home for a year isn't any life lost is incredibly binary and disingenuous. People need to be with people to be healthy in many respects, it's not just that you wanna be with friends, it's also because you have to be with your friends. Lockdown didn't suck for me because Indiana was open pretty much the whole time after the initial month or so, the only inconvenience for me was having to wear a mask when going to the grocery store and work and that was basically it (which I'm not complaining about BTW). What I'm complaining about is all the people needlessly facing economic hardships for no reason, I'm lucky that I'm not but many are. There's also millions of kids that lost a year of development because schools were closed for no reason.
 

Phoenixmgs

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What you're talking about with "correlational studies" is in effect just an attempt to ignore data. You're very good at that.
You ignore correlational data for stuff you don't want to believe in. Why can't you stay consistent in what you deem as proof? If masks were a drug, you'd say there's no definite data saying they do anything. I'm not ignoring the data, I BELIEVE masks work, it's just not been proven they work. Thus, how am I ignoring the data? I'm just saying it's not definitive.

Oh, the hypocrisy.
Yeah, the hypocrisy of me giving you similar data for something else and you saying it's garbage and you giving me the same garbage and calling it gold.

"People weren't suggesting it because it's an antiviral"? Holy fucking shit, are you deranged? You literally spent months touting HCQ as an antiviral yourself!
No, I didn't, I said it helps against the cytokine storm (lowers inflammation) which is what puts you in the hospital. If HCQ (or any zinc ionophore) is paired with zinc, there's likely a weak anti-viral affect.

Or, to summarise, you don't understand the study.
Yeah, I do. Without even looking it back up, I'm 99% sure the study was about seeing if the virus was cleared any faster.

Er, really? The only way to test the effectiveness of immunity to SARS-CoV-1 is to infect someone with it who has already had it. Where has this occurred?

Who has done this study, and where is it?

So again, here all you are trying to do is present hindsight knowledge as if you knew it at the time.
The people that thought immunity would be short-lived were comparing covid to common cold coronaviruses instead of the virus it most closely resembles. You can make very educated guesses without the power of hindsight. Hell, even with hindsight you still think covid immunity is a 50/50 coin flip for whether it's short or long lived.

Ignoring all the stuff you got wrong...
Like what...?

And those meta-analyses also show that you were wrong. The more things you get wrong, the more likely what you got right is luck.
What meta-analyses? I'm still waiting for those ivermectin meta-analyses that you claim are "out there" that I'm ignoring.

Which is really just an incredibly graceless way of admitting that I am right.
Huh? I didn't use a study with a sample size of 20...
 

Phoenixmgs

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It shows that a vector of transmission is significantly reduced in both range and volume. And of course it is, this is basic fucking physics.

"Showing that it works in a real-world scenario" is necessarily going to involve the measurement of a correlation-- the dreaded "correlational data". Mask wearing, not mask wearing. Less sick people, more sick people: correlation. If you want to understand the causal link between those two variables, then you need to show the mechanism: and that requires physical experiments like the one I googled in half a second and didn't even bother to read because holy fuck we've known masks work since at least the time where plague doctors wore those beak/proboscis-looking things.
Opps, I think I didn't post this yet (too many tabs open).

Then explain why the CDC says masks don't work for the flu if it's basic fucking physics? It is basic fucking physics that masks don't do anything outside yet people wear masks outside for who knows what reason. The places where people actually get covid are indoor places where they are with an infectious person for hours where the virus builds up in the air, I very much doubt masks are helping in those environments. If you needed masks to not get sick before from say the flu, then why weren't you catching the flu like every time you went to say Walmart during flu season when you didn't have a mask on? Why was it that you got sick when someone at home or at work had the flu that you spent hours with? Surely, if masks are doing a good job at reducing transmissions, then you'd have consistent correlational data when you don't. Or how'd the infections spike so much last fall/holiday season if masks are so amazing? Again, I'm for masks, but the data for proof just isn't there and never was there before for other respiratory diseases either. The more and more data I see, the less of an effect I feel masks have as I used to be sitting up front on that bandwagon and now I'm on like the back seat.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Opps, I think I didn't post this yet (too many tabs open).

Then explain why the CDC says masks don't work for the flu if it's basic fucking physics?
For a joke I just googled CDC flu mask and the first thing that comes up is a CDC webpage on the flu where they tell you to use a mask at all times if you're sick unless you're in isolation or only with other infected people. So I question where you get your ideas from, because it feels like you're being consistently misinformed and swallowing it whole.
 

Agema

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You ignore correlational data for stuff you don't want to believe in.
No, I analyse the quality of studies, and weight them according to the quality I can discern. That's one of the advantages of being a professional in the right sort of field. And that's why I tell you that you don't understand much.

Why can't you stay consistent in what you deem as proof? If masks were a drug, you'd say there's no definite data saying they do anything. I'm not ignoring the data, I BELIEVE masks work, it's just not been proven they work. Thus, how am I ignoring the data? I'm just saying it's not definitive.
I don't think it's a matter of "proof", I think it's a matter of "balance of evidence". The balance of evidence for masks is good. For the drugs you keep touting, it isn't. The other factor is that drugs have adverse effects that suggest they should not be used without good evidence of benefit. Masks are all but harmless.

Yeah, the hypocrisy of me giving you similar data for something else and you saying it's garbage and you giving me the same garbage and calling it gold.
You and I are not equal. I am a professional biological scientist, which means I can read this stuff and see a lot about it that you cannot. That's not hypocrisy, that's applied knowledge.

No, I didn't, I said it helps against the cytokine storm (lowers inflammation) which is what puts you in the hospital. If HCQ (or any zinc ionophore) is paired with zinc, there's likely a weak anti-viral affect.
You spent fucking months going on about zinc ionophore. I pointed out at the time this was not even the main theory about how HCQ worked as an antiviral. It's only been the last month or two you've suddenly switched to this immune modulation argument. The problem is you spend your time raging about how unfair the HCQ data is when it looks at severe covid treatment because it shouldn't be given in severe cases. Which is pretty fucking odd if you want to argue its mechanism combats cytokine storm, because the severe cases are caused by cytokine storm. You are literally citing the wrong mechanism for the therapeutic benefit you claim exists.

That is in vitro. So it has not been tested, then.

The people that thought immunity would be short-lived were comparing covid to common cold coronaviruses instead of the virus it most closely resembles.
Actually, very few experts were willing to make a call on this. Because experts know it's not remotely that simple.

What meta-analyses?
The many meta-analyses on HCQ that show you were wrong to believe it effective. Do keep up, and with your own points as well as mine. If you're ever unsure, just look back and check, as it saves you making a fool of yourself unnecessarily.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Then explain why the CDC says masks don't work for the flu if it's basic fucking physics?
Do they?

For a joke I just googled CDC flu mask and the first thing that comes up is a CDC webpage on the flu where they tell you to use a mask at all times if you're sick unless you're in isolation or only with other infected people. So I question where you get your ideas from, because it feels like you're being consistently misinformed and swallowing it whole.
Hmm...

It is basic fucking physics that masks don't do anything outside
No it's not, lmao

yet people wear masks outside for who knows what reason.
Probably because masks still stop breath droplets from flying everywhere. Yes, even outside.

If you needed masks to not get sick before from say the flu, then why weren't you catching the flu like every time you went to say Walmart during flu season when you didn't have a mask on?
Flu vaccinations are a thing. When they weren't, we had a, y'know, pandemic.

Why was it that you got sick when someone at home or at work had the flu that you spent hours with?
For the same reason that you get sick if someone without a mask spews their virus all over you. Exposure!

Surely, if masks are doing a good job at reducing transmissions, then you'd have consistent correlational data
Why would I expect that when people who think much like you are deliberately not wearing masks out of some asinine sense of personal freedom?
 

Eacaraxe

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...I suffer from seasonal allergies so bad that I'm almost always suffering from nasal congestion, so it's not a huge difference for me, the idea of "not feeling sick this past year." I've never found them terribly awkward to wear, so it's hardly an annoyance.
In my current workplace which is currently pushing a big de-masking campaign without calling it a de-masking campaign, I've had conversations with no fewer than a dozen co-workers about it. Seasonal cold and flu, and allergies, tear through the place like Chipotle burritos through a Crohn's sufferer for most of the year.

My coworkers are acutely aware of this, particularly since air quality where I work is poor on the best of days and aggravated allergies are among the most common complaints at my workplace thanks to it. They also all, to a person, have noticed vastly higher qualities of life since wearing masks to filter out the crap we breathe, and the industrial HEPA filters installed in common rooms. Despite this, they couldn't wait to de-mask, and hell I've caught some flak for saying "thanks but no thanks, I'm keeping my mask on".

Ah, the power of cognitive dissonance.

Where I live, in the south of the US, I loath going out in public, mostly because of the weaponized politics that are all around me from the conservative fuckwads that populate this state...
If I were in a joking mood, I'd give it three months before dipshits start wiping their asses with their bare hands and not washing their hands after, just because "muh freedumb yeehaw". I'm not in a joking mood, so I'll give it six since I already see dipshits right back to their "not washing hands, not covering their mouths when they cough/sneeze, pawing their snotty faces with bare hands" ways that got us into this giant fucking mess to begin with, as if the past fifteen months just never happened.
 

happyninja42

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If I were in a joking mood, I'd give it three months before dipshits start wiping their asses with their bare hands and not washing their hands after, just because "muh freedumb yeehaw". I'm not in a joking mood, so I'll give it six since I already see dipshits right back to their "not washing hands, not covering their mouths when they cough/sneeze, pawing their snotty faces with bare hands" ways that got us into this giant fucking mess to begin with, as if the past fifteen months just never happened.
Yeah, the funniest thing to me, in that "it's not really funny, but just depressing ha ha" kind of way. Is that the people who are the most obstinate about not wearing a mask in our office, are the filthiest of our clients. Not all of our veterans are the most sanitary bunch. Homeless, or almost homeless, low income, low education, they come in wearing stained clothing and clearly not bathed. But they insist "Oh I'm vaccinated, I don't have to wear one." ...dude, you're a fucking walking petri dish of who knows what. You expect me to believe you went and got vaccinated, when personal sanitation is clearly not a priority for you? Especially when you immediately go into a 'it's the damn libs tryin' tah control us!' rant when I bring it up? Come on. Put on a fucking mask."
 

thebobmaster

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Meanwhile, my state is apparently planning to make it so employees still have to mask up even after the mask mandate is lifted, unless everyone in the room is vaccinated. Not sure how that's enforceable, unless they make it so that even one employee not being vaccinated means that everyone has to mask up, but whatevs. I work outside, so having to wear a mask is a bit of a pain, but I'll survive.
 

Agema

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I was expecting this issue to be the stupidest thing on the page, but in the very next post:
It's basic physics that the spread of coronavirus depends on proximity, air movement, and time. So a mask is marginal to pointless when walking down the street with a few feet in between pedestrians. In a crowd in an enclosed space for several hours (e.g. a sports arena), a mask might be a good idea.
 

Eacaraxe

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...Is that the people who are the most obstinate about not wearing a mask in our office, are the filthiest of our clients. Not all of our veterans are the most sanitary bunch...
Without crapping on specifically vets or anything, at least the US has a real problem in the more...socially atavistic...among us have established a practical cult of filth. It's not even new, and it extends well beyond basic hygiene and sanitation -- coal rolling is borne of the same impulse. Most of these people know damn well it isn't healthy, it's counter-productively wasteful, and the only people they're hurting in the long run is themselves, but despite all of it they power through the cognitive dissonance and make the deliberate choice to self-harm regardless just to make an inexplicable, irrational political statement.

At my workplace, I know one individual whose allergies are so bad she typically has to take medical leave once a year during the spring to get herself sorted out before returning to work. And it's because of how poor the air quality is in the facility she gets that bad, she knows this and her PCM has confirmed it. That is, until the last two years when simply wearing a mask helped filter out the crap in the air. When I talked to her about this topic, I specifically cited that out and suggested she just keep wearing her mask at work.

Unsurprisingly, she said "no" and she just wanted to "get back to normal", despite that she knows for a fact "normal" for her is harmful to her health.

But it does boggle the mind, the one group of people who can be guaranteed to have worn hazmat gear at some point in their lives, who have been trained in its proper use and maintenance under extreme conditions, and have at least been given a firsthand demonstration in how critical that proper use and maintenance is -- not just for proof against chemical warfare, but biological warfare and they're made acutely aware of this -- have such a lackadaisical attitude towards a simple mask.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Then why do prisoner's wrongfully imprisoned say they lost 10 or whatever years of their life when they're exonerated? Not being able to do what you want/need is a loss of life in my book.

For a joke I just googled CDC flu mask and the first thing that comes up is a CDC webpage on the flu where they tell you to use a mask at all times if you're sick unless you're in isolation or only with other infected people. So I question where you get your ideas from, because it feels like you're being consistently misinformed and swallowing it whole.

Also, there's a study that compares all the US states for the whole year of covid (not just a month or so) that shows there was no significant difference in infections in states with mask mandates and those without and it even uses survey data regarding whether people did mask or did not mask.

No, I analyse the quality of studies, and weight them according to the quality I can discern. That's one of the advantages of being a professional in the right sort of field. And that's why I tell you that you don't understand much.

I don't think it's a matter of "proof", I think it's a matter of "balance of evidence". The balance of evidence for masks is good. For the drugs you keep touting, it isn't. The other factor is that drugs have adverse effects that suggest they should not be used without good evidence of benefit. Masks are all but harmless.

None of the studies you've cited have anything that isn't correlational data or something that would unequivically translate to real-world scenarios. Also, there isn't consistent correlational data either. There's literally more vitamin d data showing vitamin d works than there is mask data. Vitamin d is harmless (it takes beyond ridiculous amounts of it for calcification so don't even go there).

You and I are not equal. I am a professional biological scientist, which means I can read this stuff and see a lot about it that you cannot. That's not hypocrisy, that's applied knowledge.
And, why have I (aka doctors that make strong arguments) been right more than you? You can't even see that right now there's tons of data showing long-lived immunity and not a single drop of it saying immunity will be short-lived. How is there not a "balance of evidence" that says immunity is long-lived?

You spent fucking months going on about zinc ionophore. I pointed out at the time this was not even the main theory about how HCQ worked as an antiviral. It's only been the last month or two you've suddenly switched to this immune modulation argument. The problem is you spend your time raging about how unfair the HCQ data is when it looks at severe covid treatment because it shouldn't be given in severe cases. Which is pretty fucking odd if you want to argue its mechanism combats cytokine storm, because the severe cases are caused by cytokine storm. You are literally citing the wrong mechanism for the therapeutic benefit you claim exists.
I never stated that HCQ would be an anti-viral against covid. You may have stated the argument for HCQ was as an anti-viral but no doctor I heard talk about it or that was using it was saying it was an anti-viral on it's own. The early adopters said it helped with modulating the inflammatory response.

Thus, chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine can reduce the production of various pro-inflammatory cytokines, such as IL-1, IL-6, interferon-α and tumour necrosis factor, which are involved in the cytokine storm

That is in vitro. So it has not been tested, then.
One of them was tested in animals. What about the "balance of evidence"?

Actually, very few experts were willing to make a call on this. Because experts know it's not remotely that simple.
They why did all these news articles (and they are still doing it to this day) cite all these "experts" saying that?

Like this for example

The many meta-analyses on HCQ that show you were wrong to believe it effective. Do keep up, and with your own points as well as mine. If you're ever unsure, just look back and check, as it saves you making a fool of yourself unnecessarily.
And the meta-analyses for HCQ on early treatment? Covid has 2 phases, it's like saying giving steroids early doesn't help so that proves giving them later doesn't work.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Do they?

Hmm...
Yes, the CDC does say masks don't work for the flu.


No it's not, lmao

Probably because masks still stop breath droplets from flying everywhere. Yes, even outside.
It is basic fucking physics that masks don't work outside because the viral particles are basically immediately dispersed by the natural flow of air.

Near-absent are examples of transmission at beaches and other open spaces where breezes disperse airborne particles, distancing is easier, and humidity and sunlight render the coronavirus less viable.

Flu vaccinations are a thing. When they weren't, we had a, y'know, pandemic.

For the same reason that you get sick if someone without a mask spews their virus all over you. Exposure!
You think flu vaccines stop 1918 from happening every year?

Lots of people don't get flu vaccines, I didn't get them until work forced them. Also, the flu vaccine doesn't help against the common cold and did you get sick in years prior just shopping? Just about every time I got a head cold/flu (who knows when it's a flu or cold unless you get tested) was when friends or co-workers were sick. Just passing by someone isn't going to get you sick or we'd be sick all the fucking time.

Why would I expect that when people who think much like you are deliberately not wearing masks out of some asinine sense of personal freedom?
I wear mask where I have to (very few places now have any mask mandate so I don't wear one). I haven't needed to a wear mask pretty much the whole pandemic because I got it before any guidelines even were in place.

Meanwhile, my state is apparently planning to make it so employees still have to mask up even after the mask mandate is lifted, unless everyone in the room is vaccinated. Not sure how that's enforceable, unless they make it so that even one employee not being vaccinated means that everyone has to mask up, but whatevs. I work outside, so having to wear a mask is a bit of a pain, but I'll survive.
Wow, they make you wear a mask outside, that's just asinine.

I was expecting this issue to be the stupidest thing on the page, but in the very next post:
Near-absent are examples of transmission at beaches and other open spaces where breezes disperse airborne particles, distancing is easier, and humidity and sunlight render the coronavirus less viable.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Wow, you really are bad at reading.

1) That's not the CDC saying that, that's a paper sent to the CDC that they published likely because they're required to publish any properly accredited paper sent to them
2) That's not what the paper says, as it's a meta-analysis of other works and moreso points out that previously written papers on mask usage were poorly done. If you read what they say past "masks don't work" you get:

Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.
In lower-income settings, it is more likely that reusable cloth masks will be used rather than disposable medical masks because of cost and availability. There are still few uncertainties in the practice of face mask use, such as who should wear the mask and how long it should be used for. In theory, transmission should be reduced the most if both infected members and other contacts wear masks, but compliance in uninfected close contacts could be a problem. Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission. Thus, education on the proper use and disposal of used face masks, including hand hygiene, is also needed.
Their paper still understands what everyone is telling you, masks work, but only when people properly comply with proper usage and people hate complying with proper usage outside of east Asia. That's why you don't see mandates work but do see Japan and Taiwan have infection rates tens or hundreds of times lower than America and a lot of the western world.
 
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