The Oxford Comma - Let's Settle This Once And For All

[Xprimentyl]

Ok, punctuation nerds, where does everyone stand on the Oxford Comma? (The commonly unused comma that comes before the “and” in the final item in a list, e.g.: “I went to the store with Tom, Dick, Jane, (<--Oxford comma) and Harry.”

Legal Eagle makes some irrefutable points, so I’m not arguing him, but I mean in casual written communications. After watching this, I assured myself I would try to start using it, but I just can’t bring myself to do it. It just looks so awkward and superfluous. I can now appreciate the legal and technical implications, but I feel any reasonable person isn’t confused by its absence and it’s ultimately an archaic use of punctuation there just to sate sticklers and nitpickers.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I always use it. It's a new item in the list so it should be separated.

 

[Baffle]

It should be used if that's what you like, otherwise it should be used where sense requires it. There's places where not having it causes ambiguity (e.g. a list with paired items where it can become unclear which item is paired with which), in which case it should be used. Otherwise, personal preference -- I tend to use it because then I don't have to worry about the rule I've just mentioned.

EDIT: "I want a pie, battered cod, chips and bits and sausage" vs "I want a pie, battered cod, chips, and bits and sausage." It's not a major issue in this case, but you've got two different orders here (chips with bits vs bits with sausage) It would be resolvable, assuming you were going to put the dinner on plates, but it's an extra faff.

This isn't a great example because I'm tired and about to go to bed. And often context makes clear, but not always, and especially if it's teaching material or something like that.

Note: 'Bits' is just fried batter.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The problem is that you're trying to "settle" the rules for English, a language that hasn't been able to sort itself out for centuries.

 

[Piscian]

Where I'm from wind means the blowly stuff, unless you mean wind, but we don't say wind we say wrap, unless you're talking about the sandwich thing, but I think that's usually a gyro which we pronounce jiro unless its a hero which is a kind of sub, the sandwich not like a submarine which technically is also another kind of sandwich and what I'm getting at is that if you use an oxford comma around here people are gonna say thats exactly not where youre from.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I always use it. It's a new item in the list so it should be separated.

Which is exactly what the "and" before the final item does sans the Oxford comma. The Oxford comma is redundant.

 

[09philj]

Which is exactly what the "and" before the final item does sans the Oxford comma. The Oxford comma is redundant.

There are too many distinct entities in English that include the word "and" as part of their name, Oxford commas remove ambiguity.
"Rice and peas" is something very different to "rice, and peas"

 

[Xprimentyl]

There are too many distinct entities in English that include the word "and" as part of their name, Oxford commas remove ambiguity.
"Rice and peas" is something very different to "rice, and peas"

But any reasonable person wouldn't end their list with one of those entities with "and" in their name without the unambiguous conjunctive "and" before the pair. I wouldn't say I had "Pork chops, mashed potatoes, peas and carrots" to itemize my 3-item meal; I'd say "pork chops, mashed potatoes and peas and carrots."

 

[happyninja42]

I'm mostly just baffled that I hear at least one British YT'er call them "inverted commas" instead of "quotation marks." Which I find strange, since he will say the word "quote" when he's quoting someone, so it's not like the word isn't in the British lexicon or something?

@Baffle can you shine any light on this? Is that a common phrasing for this tool of english language?

 

[Baffle]

I'm mostly just baffled that I hear at least one British YT'er call them "inverted commas" instead of "quotation marks." Which I find strange, since he will say the word "quote" when he's quoting someone, so it's not like the word isn't in the British lexicon or something?

@Baffle can you shine any light on this? Is that a common phrasing for this tool of english language?

We use both, though I'd say 'inverted commas' is old-fashioned. I say 'quotation marks', or more often 'quotes', which isn't technically correct I guess.

 

[Baffle]

But any reasonable person wouldn't end their list with one of those entities with "and" in their name. I wouldn't say I had "Pork chops, mashed potatoes, peas and carrots" to itemize my 3-item meal; I'd say "pork chops, mashed potatoes and peas and carrots."

It depends on the complexity of the list and how familiar someone is with the subject matter that they'd know something was a pair rather than a separate item.

'Today in knot-tying class we learned the cat's paw, donkey's bane, figure-eight, fisherman, jamming, wall and crown and water knots.'

We can't reorder the list because it's deliberately alphabetical, but I don't know enough about knots to know whether that's a wall and crown knot + water knot (it is) or a wall knot + a crown and water knot (it isn't). Obviously as this is alphabetical you can deduce it, but the reader shouldn't have to pause to think about it (and the list might not be alphabetical, it could be a priority order list or something).

We could add hyphens (wall-and-crown knot), but that's messy and less legible than a simple comma. It's something I don't feel strongly about, but the Oxford comma can add clarity and I don't think it ever reduces it.

 

[happyninja42]

We use both, though I'd say 'inverted commas' is old-fashioned. I say 'quotation marks', or more often 'quotes', which isn't technically correct I guess.

Old fashioned, as in what age demographic? Like your granny 60-80 years old? kind of old fashioned? Or the new fangled modern version of old fashioned, which means anything pre-2000? I ask because the guy in question who uses the term, is only in his mid 30s, so I wonder just how anachronistic he is I mean it wouldn't surprise me, given his education and other factors, that he's an old fuddy duddy in a young body. It just amuses me.

 

[Baffle]

Old fashioned, as in what age demographic? Like your granny 60-80 years old? kind of old fashioned? Or the new fangled modern version of old fashioned, which means anything pre-2000? I ask because the guy in question who uses the term, is only in his mid 30s, so I wonder just how anachronistic he is I mean it wouldn't surprise me, given his education and other factors, that he's an old fuddy duddy in a young body. It just amuses me.

The second kind of old-fashioned more likely. UK English is getting more Americanized, just via cultural exposure I guess. I think 'quote marks' is much clearer. I mean, the comma isn't backwards, is it? It's raised, not inverted (for the closing quote anyway).

 

[Kyrian007]

The biggest problem is that the major style formats don't agree anymore. It used to be that MLA, AP, and Chicago all used the Oxford comma. Now the MLA still uses it (which means so do I personally.) But Chicago simply "recommends" the Oxford comma. And AP has dropped it entirely, a problem for me as my workplace uses AP style. Academically that means that either you know what style your professors want you to use, or they simply allow you to use whatever as long as you are consistent. Or they grade you down for grammatical errors or not knowing at all what writing styles are.

 

[Xprimentyl]

It depends on the complexity of the list and how familiar someone is with the subject matter that they'd know something was a pair rather than a separate item.

'Today in knot-tying class we learned the cat's paw, donkey's bane, figure-eight, fisherman, jamming, wall and crown and water knots.'

We can't reorder the list because it's deliberately alphabetical, but I don't know enough about knots to know whether that's a wall and crown knot + water knot (it is) or a wall knot + a crown and water knot (it isn't). Obviously as this is alphabetical you can deduce it, but the reader shouldn't have to pause to think about it (and the list might not be alphabetical, it could be a priority order list or something).

We could add hyphens (wall-and-crown knot), but that's messy and less legible than a simple comma. It's something I don't feel strongly about, but the Oxford comma can add clarity and I don't think it ever reduces it.

Bah, you and your logic and reason... Still, not gonna use it.