Marvel's L0Ki Discussion Thread

[Piscian]

Figured I'd start a thread for anyone who wants to discuss Loki, who's first episode is out today. Fair warning all the influencers got the first 3 episode so be real careful about what reviews you seek out if you don't want spoilers.

Not much that can be said without discussing spoilers. I thought it was great, best of these so far. I think that is partially attributable to the fact that Tom hiddleston is great as always and the chemistry between him and Owen Wilson is wonderful. This also very clearly has a much higher budget than either Wandavision or Captain Falcon. The first episode is pretty heavily on effects and it only looks like its going to escalate from here. If I could summarize why this seems to already be off to a better start than the previous series -

For myself Wandavision didn't really seem to have direction until the 3rd episode and not really until the end did it give me any reason to care. It was like a mystery box show without compelling dialog story out of the gates. I think it did "get gud", just took its sweet time getting there.

Falcon & TWS had all kinds of problems. I was never locked in. The writing, pacing and story was all over the place and yet it still felt by the numbers. If you guessed how it would all play out before watching it, you were probably right.

L0ki is pretty action packed out of the gates and is heavily into the Doctor Who, hitchhikers Guide to the galaxy aesthetics. It's fun, interesting and wacky and has a very british humor undertone to it. I also have absolutely no clue where it's going after episode one. I know what the main story arch its setting up is, not the foggiest idea how it will play out or end. This Multiveres and time travel. Thats always fun.

Interestingly enough the Director is another nobody, Kate Herron, Disney is taking a risk on. She seems to have some experience with comedy writing which appears to make her a solid choice. I did like her last show "daybreak" well enough. The only writer they're revealing is another semi-nobody Michael Waldron. His only experience in hollywood is production and minor writing credits on Ricky & Morty and Community. It's pretty limited, but he's also the writer on "Doctor Strange: In the multiverse of Madness" so he must have wow'd somebody.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Interestingly enough the Director is another nobody, Kate Herron, Disney is taking a risk on.

These things are designed by committee, not directed. The risk is taken long before they assign a director.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I thought it was fun, but still really out of character for Avenger's era Loki. He starts acting like Ragnarok Loki almost immediately.

I agree that the show feels like a step above in terms of budget and even cinematography in general. A lot less shots that feel just like a few dudes in a room.

 

[SilentPony]

Okay so Loki. Its...interesting.

The Good: Tom Hiddleston as Loki. Always fun to see, fan favorite for a reason.

The Bad: Tom Hiddleston as Loki. I get that he's a fan favorite, and he really owns the role, but whoever is in charge of character continuity has been on an extra long lunch break since WandaVision. This isn't Loki, the mad Asgardian from Avengers 1, this is very clearly Loki the redeemedish anti-Hero from Thor 3/Infinity War. He's clearly older, more worn, less snarky, doesn't talk like a Shakespearian villain but as part of a comedic duo, and he watches his own life and reacts to it. Loki, from Avengers 1 who is still in league with Thanos to take Earth and Asgard, cries at the death of his then super-hated father, smiles happily and mournfully at his renewed friendship with Thor, laughs as they joke and get to fight side by side one last time, and then gasps in horror at his own sacrifice to try to stop Thanos.

The Stupid: Owen Wilson has no business in any role except being a wise cracking miniature cowboy in a Museum with a totally not gay relationship with a Roman general.

The Ooppsie, didn't proof read that enough: So this spoils Dr Strange 2 and Spiderman 3, yah? Multiverse of Madness, and No Way Home, long thought to be about the Multiverse despite no evidence. TVA openly says they trimmed down the multiverse until there is one prime reality and actively hunt and destroy branching realities. Which means Cap didn't go back and live in an alternate timeline, he went back and lived in the Prime. Dr Strange didn't see millions of different outcomes to the battle, the TVA had made sure there could only be one. Spiderman 3 isnt gona be teaming up with other spiderman, there are no other spidermen, the TVA destroyed the multiverse. Same with Dr. Strange 2. The TVA destroyed the multiverse. So its either going to un-do that, making Loki a meaningless story, or not un-do that, making the Multiverse of Madness not about the Multiverse.
See Marvel, this is why you need to sit down and watch ALL the movies when writing new stuff, to make sure your new stuff isn't glaringly counter to what's been said before, especially if its glaringly critical stuff like Captain America's fate.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

See Marvel, this is why you need to sit down and watch ALL the movies when writing new stuff, to make sure your new stuff isn't glaringly counter to what's been said before, especially if its glaringly critical stuff like Captain America's fate.

I don't disagree, but Cap's time travel shenanigans never made sense so I don't think Loki has any real implications of that. I'm more than glad to just accept that it was a fun way out for Chris Evans without straight up killing Captain America.

 

[Piscian]

Okay so Loki. Its...interesting.

The Good: Tom Hiddleston as Loki. Always fun to see, fan favorite for a reason.

The Bad: Tom Hiddleston as Loki. I get that he's a fan favorite, and he really owns the role, but whoever is in charge of character continuity has been on an extra long lunch break since WandaVision. This isn't Loki, the mad Asgardian from Avengers 1, this is very clearly Loki the redeemedish anti-Hero from Thor 3/Infinity War. He's clearly older, more worn, less snarky, doesn't talk like a Shakespearian villain but as part of a comedic duo, and he watches his own life and reacts to it. Loki, from Avengers 1 who is still in league with Thanos to take Earth and Asgard, cries at the death of his then super-hated father, smiles happily and mournfully at his renewed friendship with Thor, laughs as they joke and get to fight side by side one last time, and then gasps in horror at his own sacrifice to try to stop Thanos.

The Stupid: Owen Wilson has no business in any role except being a wise cracking miniature cowboy in a Museum with a totally not gay relationship with a Roman general.

The Ooppsie, didn't proof read that enough: So this spoils Dr Strange 2 and Spiderman 3, yah? Multiverse of Madness, and No Way Home, long thought to be about the Multiverse despite no evidence. TVA openly says they trimmed down the multiverse until there is one prime reality and actively hunt and destroy branching realities. Which means Cap didn't go back and live in an alternate timeline, he went back and lived in the Prime. Dr Strange didn't see millions of different outcomes to the battle, the TVA had made sure there could only be one. Spiderman 3 isnt gona be teaming up with other spiderman, there are no other spidermen, the TVA destroyed the multiverse. Same with Dr. Strange 2. The TVA destroyed the multiverse. So its either going to un-do that, making Loki a meaningless story, or not un-do that, making the Multiverse of Madness not about the Multiverse.
See Marvel, this is why you need to sit down and watch ALL the movies when writing new stuff, to make sure your new stuff isn't glaringly counter to what's been said before, especially if its glaringly critical stuff like Captain America's fate.

Yeah, it's worth noting this is a limited six episodes by the guy who's writing drs2 so yeah unfortunately in a way it's difficult not to believe that the cats already out of the bag -this is setting up both the multiverse and the What If? Series. Thinking positively this gives Marvel the opportunity to take the film's in whatever direction they want. Execs are probably already drooling at the idea that they can not only avoid fan backlash when they replace Chris Evans but actually hype nerds up about it because nerds eat this shit up. Regardless of whether your logic works or not, Ant-Man 3 Paul Rudd can come out be like "imagine the multi-verse more like...a layered burrito.." everybody laughs and we're back on board!

 

[SilentPony]

I don't disagree, but Cap's time travel shenanigans never made sense so I don't think Loki has any real implications of that. I'm more than glad to just accept that it was a fun way out for Chris Evans without straight up killing Captain America.

See I was happy to go with Cap was always her husband. She said in Winter Soldier in that documentary she met her husband during the war, and yeah she says Cap saved him, but maybe she meant Cap saved himself, and Cap was always there living his life on the downlow because reality still had to happen a certain way. He couldn't save Bucky in the 40s or 50s because Bucky was needed in 2012+, and to help Sam in 2027.
I was content with Cap gets his life with Peggy and all is well, but they keep bringing up time travel, alternate realities and loops and branching stories, and just leave it alone Marvel. It was a slightly slapdash end to Cap but we all loved it to let it go, stop bringing it up and framing it and making us realize how it doesn't really make sense.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I find it hard to care because I know it's not going to amount to shit, just like Wandavision didn't and just like Falcon and the Winter Soldier didn't. I'll betcha this whole Time Bureau set-up - despite being the most powerful force we've seen thus far - is going to get quietly tucked away once this show is done. At best it's going to un-dead Loki for the future Thor movies.

 

[SilentPony]

I find it hard to care because I know it's not going to amount to shit, just like Wandavision didn't and just like Falcon and the Winter Soldier didn't. I'll betcha this whole Time Bureau set-up - despite being the most powerful force we've seen thus far - is going to get quietly tucked away once this show is done. At best it's going to un-dead Loki for the future Thor movies.

Unless this series ends with Loki destroying the TVA and breaking open the multiverse, we know the stakes going forward will be super low. Will Peter Parker meet alternative versions of himself in No Way Home? No, because the TVA destroyed the other versions. Will Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness introduce the multiverse? Well no, the TVA already destroyed it.
That's sorta the problem with bringing in basically all knowing, all powerful, time and space transcending time Gods so powerful basic interns and accountants can overpower Asgardians. Either is has to be destroyed, or no other movie will have such high stakes as Endgame.

 

[Dalisclock]

So a couple of thoughts.

1. Someone in set design really dug the Brazil and Fallout aesthetic(according to TVTROPES it's Zeerust). It feels oddly appros though.

2. I have no clue how the hell any of this is meant to jive with the other time travel/dimension hopping shenanigans from the other marvel films. Hell, Endgame had Thanos from another timeline pop in to attack the prime one but that's okay apparently because it was "Meant to happen". The "Sacred Timeline" apparently looks like a bunch of pretzels twisted in on each other.

3. There's the possibility(depending on how clever the writers are) that this is all a massive facade and the timelines aren't nearly as clear cut or singular as Ms. Minute is telling us. While I do dig the idea of the Agency cleaning up loose ends in the timelines, what they're saying feels far too sanitized to be the whole story.

4. I would not be at all shocked to find that the TVA exists solely to ensure their "Sacred" timeline is dominant above all others, and the Avengers beating Thanos in Endgame, despite the Temporal mess it caused, is allowed to happen because it allows their timeline to continue existing at the expense of all others. Any timelines that support that objective are allowed to exist solely in pursuant to that goal.

 

[Hades]

The first episode was good but I can't help but think its a mistake to bring Loki back. He has completed his arc and all that the narrative could have done with him has been done. It seems more that he's being brought back because he's a fan favorite rather than because there is anywhere left for his character to go.

I suspect the time patrol's lore will eventually be revealed to be a gigantic con. For an inter dimensional, cosmic level organisation they seem incredibly similar to earth. Rather than anything cosmic, demonic, divine or bizarre their base of operation resembles 1950's America.

 

[gorfias]

Loki points out the need for an MCU re-boot. They've done it to Spiderman 3 times in 20 years. They can do it for the entire MCU. It's turning into the Terminator series. Time looping all over the place. What are the stakes now? Thanos wiped out 1/2 the entire Universe and we had sort of a cosmic level "never mind" event.

And Loki now being the 3rd show. So odd. Wanda was actually the bad guy, even if no one calls her out on it. Falcon, with no Super Soldier treatment, who got lapped many times by Cap while jogging, is the new Cap'n? And now, the terrifying anti-social Loki is being treated like comedy relief.

 

[Piscian]

Episode 2 takes a little time to get going, but ends with a banger. I suspect this is still marching towards the multiverse. The title of the movie kinda spoils it, but regardless it just benefits marvel and Disney to no end establishing a multiverse. They could even do an Exiles show after what if? or whatever that universe jumping comic was with blink from X-Men at some point.

Commenting on the fact that this loki becomes more fully realized a little quickly I'd point out this episode shows that to be not quite true and even so his more silly selfaware version was only what a year or two removed between Avengers and Thor Ragnarok? I'd say knowing your full life story that quickly might prompt some character change.

I'm kinda sad to say I'm already vastly more invested in this than wandavision or falcon and the snowman ( I still say that's the true reference). It could be that the stakes are much higher but this just doesn't "feel" like it's meandering like those shows did.

FATWS especially, was a huge disappointment for me because it had really important things to say, but it was like your drunk friend at the bar trying to tell a profound parable about racism as youre half carrying them out of the pub at 3am.

Loki has not yet puked on my shoes while trying to hug me...as of episode 2.

 

[SilentPony]

The show feels...without a point. Like I'm not sure what the goal here is. With WandaVision it was about Wanda, and Vision, ultimately to create White Vision and the Scarlet Witch. Falcon and the Winter solider ultimately became Captain America and the Winter Soldier and was about Sam and Bucky finding their place in a post-Steve world.
Loki is about...what? The multiverse? What does Loki have to do with that? The other shows were about getting the characters to a place where they can be in the next Avengers. Loki the character is dead, his story is over. It feels like this is all just to get the TVA crashing down and opening up the multiverse in time for Dr. Strange 2, which sure whatever, guess they shouldn't have closed that door in Spiderman 2. But why is Loki the character getting us there? He has no link to the multiverse, there was no character moment to explain why he's the main figure. Is it just to keep Tom Hiddleson under contract and on set for his Thor 4 cameo? Like Im not following what the point of the show is. Why does this story need to be told and why is it Loki's story? They say he's a variant and wasn't supposed to escape in Endgame. Okay sure. Doesn't that mean that Tony and Steve weren't meant to re-find the Tesseract in the 70s? That Steve wasn't meant to see Peggy and get reminded of the life he never had, and Tony was never met to find closure with his dad? Like how did these Time Keepers foresee a plan where Tony and Steve are at a military base in New Jersey in the 70s each finding something personally meaningful, all in pursuit of finding an Infinity Stone without ever establishing that Loki needed to escape? Is that the big twist, Loki isn't a variant, he's now the Prime Loki?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

What I really want to see is Loki learn about teamwork and, perhaps, being a team player.

 

[Dalisclock]

The show feels...without a point. Like I'm not sure what the goal here is. With WandaVision it was about Wanda, and Vision, ultimately to create White Vision and the Scarlet Witch. Falcon and the Winter solider ultimately became Captain America and the Winter Soldier and was about Sam and Bucky finding their place in a post-Steve world.
Loki is about...what? The multiverse? What does Loki have to do with that? The other shows were about getting the characters to a place where they can be in the next Avengers. Loki the character is dead, his story is over. It feels like this is all just to get the TVA crashing down and opening up the multiverse in time for Dr. Strange 2, which sure whatever, guess they shouldn't have closed that door in Spiderman 2. But why is Loki the character getting us there? He has no link to the multiverse, there was no character moment to explain why he's the main figure. Is it just to keep Tom Hiddleson under contract and on set for his Thor 4 cameo? Like Im not following what the point of the show is. Why does this story need to be told and why is it Loki's story? They say he's a variant and wasn't supposed to escape in Endgame. Okay sure. Doesn't that mean that Tony and Steve weren't meant to re-find the Tesseract in the 70s? That Steve wasn't meant to see Peggy and get reminded of the life he never had, and Tony was never met to find closure with his dad? Like how did these Time Keepers foresee a plan where Tony and Steve are at a military base in New Jersey in the 70s each finding something personally meaningful, all in pursuit of finding an Infinity Stone without ever establishing that Loki needed to escape? Is that the big twist, Loki isn't a variant, he's now the Prime Loki?

No idea. The "Sacred Timeline" is a fucking preztel made of pretzels and the rules are thinly explained at best.

Which to me suggests the TVA is only there to ensure their timeline that spawns the timekeepers and the TVA continues to exist so anything that doesn't threaten that is fine, timeline messing about be damned.

 

[Hades]

I'm 99.9% sure the Time Keepers either no longer exist or never did so to begin with. A bunch of all powerful rulers who have a cult of personality build around then, who no one ever sees and with a middle manager always speaking on their behalf? I think anyone who saw Equilibrium or more recently Snowpiercer will instantly recognize where this is going.

There are no time keepers. They are dead or fictional, and Ravonna is pulling a mister Wilford.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I'm 99.9% sure the Time Keepers either no longer exist or never did so to begin with. A bunch of all powerful rulers who have a cult of personality build around then, who no one ever sees and with a middle manager always speaking on their behalf? I think anyone who saw Equilibrium or more recently Snowpiercer will instantly recognize where this is going.

There are no time keepers. They are dead or fictional, and Ravonna is pulling a mister Wilford.

I think they definitely don't exist, in that there aren't three lizard dudes just magicking away at the timeline. I'd think it's more likely that they're a bunch of bureaucrats or government official types just debating what they want to allow to happen.

 

[happyninja42]

So, I hate to ask the question, for fear of stirring up shit that might not exist , but that's basically what I'm curious about. So I've seen thumbnails for articles and vids talking about the gender fluidity for Loki in the show, and yet I haven't really seen anyone talking about any backlash about it?

Which frankly I hope is the case because, the mythological character Loki is just a case of norse handwavium to explain all the weird shit in their pantheon and mythology. He's given birth to all kinds of weird things, he shape changes all the time, this just seems like pretty standard thing for Loki, at least mythological (thought I think also comic version too? *shrugs*) So, yeah, to people who actually pay attention to social media and shit, has there been any uproar about Loki's gender fluidity?

 

[gorfias]

So, I hate to ask the question, for fear of stirring up shit that might not exist , but that's basically what I'm curious about. So I've seen thumbnails for articles and vids talking about the gender fluidity for Loki in the show, and yet I haven't really seen anyone talking about any backlash about it?

Which frankly I hope is the case because, the mythological character Loki is just a case of norse handwavium to explain all the weird shit in their pantheon and mythology. He's given birth to all kinds of weird things, he shape changes all the time, this just seems like pretty standard thing for Loki, at least mythological (thought I think also comic version too? *shrugs*) So, yeah, to people who actually pay attention to social media and shit, has there been any uproar about Loki's gender fluidity?

Teeny tiny one that I saw. Very small. I pay attention to this sort of thing and have to write, this isn't bad at all.

ITMT: I am bored of Norse G-ds karate fighting normal humans. Loki's physical strength is on par with Thor's. He is using magic, so that isn't nullified. Anyone normalish human should be a plaything for him. Any gang of them should be an amusement for him.

Trying to recall if Cap harms him in Avengers (They tussle briefly). I think Cap had to be saved by Iron Man.

EDIT: Yeah, Cap can stall Loki with the help of his shield but is individually no match for him.