Video Games are Doomed.

[Casual Shinji]

So basically the answer isn't make a dumbbed down world, but instead make a well-designed one.

Well yes, but not every open-world game that adhires to markers and doesn't have the level of design that BotW has is ineffecient or dumbed down. Horizon: Zero Dawn is in essence the same as a Ubisoft open-world, but the main gameplay loop is running around and getting into robot fights, so in that sense the open-world feels totally validated gameplay wise. This also makes fast-travel less of a crutch, since the space it's meant to skip is where a lot of the chunky gameplay is housed. Same with the recent Spider-Man games.

 

[stroopwafel]

And maybe size is the problem. Games have gotten so big that they'd be impossible to play without these video game guidances in place. Things are much different than the linear small levels of Crash Bandicoot games or old Metriods. Something like The Witcher 3 covers a much larger piece of ground versus those early 2000's and late 90's games.

Perhaps these markers are just a thing we have to deal with when also getting large games.

But if i remember correctly Breath of the Wild had a huge open world with almost no markers at all right? 900 seeds to discover and find, 150 shrines, with little more than a proximity beeper on your belt to tell you where to go. Now I hated that game, but i hated it for the combat system not the exploration.

I wonder if there is an argument to be made that something like Far Cry could work without all the marker fluff, but developers are too scared to try. The thing about people and video games is that they will only usually deal with a challenge for as long as they can tolerate it or are unable to turn it down. It's easy to say that you could turn the markers off, but the problem there is that usually the quest dialog relies on having those markers on. Which means that the quest description isn't very good because it doesn't have to be, the map willtell the player where to go anyway.

However like with Breath of the Wild, if you bake discovery and exploration into the game as a core element, then it can certainly work without a million map markers.

I think the problem with markers and the like are that they take away from player agency. But you can't turn them off because the game is designed around completing quests tied to specific locations which would be impossible to find otherwise. Or very frustrating to find as you say. No markers also means a different approach to open world game design.

That is what I love so much about a game like Subnautica. It just throws you into the world(or rather, the sea) and expects you to figure things out for yourself in the beginning. This makes progress really rewarding because it doesn't feel like you're doing exactly what the designer wanted you to do at the exact moment he/she intended. Which is ofcourse still what is going on but there is a much greater feeling of agency which is what makes games so fun. The interactivity should mean something rather than just being led by the hand of the designer. Most games I never feel immersed because it always put me into the mindset of ''oh the developer probably wants me to do this or that'' followed by some cutscene and mediocre by-the-numbers story(combining the worst of both worlds). Games are exceptional when they make you feel your input actually matters and when the divide between player and developer fades into the background. This also requires a minimalist approach to game design when the trend is ofcourse the complete opposite. There are so many bells and whistles in presentation alone that you never feel in control.

Ubi will never experiment with their open world template b/c heavily curated games will always have more mainstream appeal. There is no real engagement with those games other than the most superficial level. It's like binging netflix shows people can zone out and play them completing checklist after checklist as new icons keep popping up. It's what popular and it's what sells but for many players it are also unrewarding titles which is probably also the reason why more challenging games and games focusing on player freedom have such sizeable audiences now.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Same with the recent Spider-Man games.

Spider-man had a fast travel? Apart from web-swinging? I legit didn't know this because the travel of the world was so fun that I never considered not wanting to do it. Which might also serve as another solution to the open world problem here. Making traversing the world more fun than skipping it. GTA games also do this very well, due to the sheer insanity of cars and the antics you can get up to with those cars. Does GTA have fast-travel? Probably. But some of the best moments in GTA are the spontanious things, or listening to the amazing radio stations on your way to whatever task is next.

Its funny because the more I this thread goes, the more I think of examples of games that didn't take these "easy outs" that many newer games have done. Admittedly some new games still do things this same way as well. Giving TLOU2 some credit there is a lot of level to explore in plenty of places throughout that game, gather supplies is a decent reward but the game also has something like 150+ collectibles for you to find if you want and the UI is very minimal with that game.

I think that rather than looking at how we make things work for people like DSP, we look at how to design the games in which they cater to the player without the player realizing it. Making the player feel smart is probably the harder thing a game can pull off.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Games are exceptional when they make you feel your input actually matters and when the divide between player and developer fades into the background. This also requires a minimalist approach to game design when the trend is ofcourse the complete opposite. There are so many bells and whistles in presentation alone that you never feel in control.

This might be true for some games. But there is a whole spectrum of other games in which the story is the experience. I'm not saying that all games must never have markers and be all open world games.

I just brought up TLOU2 in the previous post, because that is a very linear game that still grants a lot of freedom of exploration and discovery to the player. It doesn't dot your map with a ton of shit to try and make finding collectibles and optional things as easy as possible, it lets the player look around and move at (mostly) their own pace and find things or just look around.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake is annoyingly linear most of the time. However as the player I'm invested in the characters and I'm along for that ride. Control comes from the combat, and the customization of the party loadouts. So the player does have ways to express themselves, it's just not done in world changing ways to maintain story flow.

So while i agree with your point, it's hard to use it as a blanket rule.

 

[Piscian]

The only time I really care about exactly "when" a new gun arrives is when the game is specifically designed around that scheduled feeding mechanic. Live service games really. So the logic here is a limited application. I sorta hold out hope that there will be some sort of gaming crash that weeds out some of this live service development, but at the same time this player feeding mechanism doesn't work for plenty of games and development studios out there. This won't effect games like Stalker 2, Dying Light 2, Elder Scrolls 6, etc. I've long since canceled subscriptions or stopped purchasing games developed in the fashion made in the video. Not because I'm captain smart man, but simply because I'm just not the target audience. I get fatigued much faster by very linear live service progression games. I think it's largely because I'm older and any time spent gaming is always weighed for value against cleaning the garage or errands or work. All I can really do is hope younger gamers start to catch wind of this hamster wheel gaming and stop supporting it. Kinda out of my control though.

 

[BrawlMan]

Admittedly a lot of this is hyperbole. But i do that in order to promote conversations. Looking at the extremes of something allows more room for responses.

Don't ever think I'm all that upset about things in that way. I mostly was also making a joke that if DSP is influencing game design then the world might as well explode. So you know.....hahaha funny funny.

I'll keep that in mind, but you do still have a habit making certain situations "serious buisness", when it's not the case.

As an experiment I played a bit of Ghost of Tsushima with the wind mechanic turned off (as praised as that thing is it's still just a big arrow), and it was the first time within the game that I felt like I was looking at the world and where the scenery guided my view, instead of the next item on the docket. I did a similar thing with Red Dead Redemption 2. And it's amazing how great of an experience these games become... but the size of the world stops this being fun for too long. These worlds need to be sizeable enough for the story and lore fit, but you can't make a gameworld that big without needing a heck of a lot of visual and tavel aid, which in turn takes away from the more "pure" form of exploration and discovery.

Ghost has some of the best exploration open world, with or without the wind mechanic. I got lost in the game just exploring and finding hidden quests or items. The island is truly breath taking. The 3rd part of the island is not as good, but it was still fun. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. The combat is good and it was fun being ancient Japan Batman. Ghost was Sony and SP's answer to Assassin's Creed and Breath of the Wild. The open world is big, but not as big as what Rockstar, Bethesda, or Ubisoft pull out of their asses, thank Buddha.

So basically the answer isn't make a dumbbed down world, but instead make a well-designed one.

Doy! Too bad many AAA companies and some smaller companies miss that memo. Only trying to solve by "bigger is better!".

Spider-man had a fast travel? Apart from web-swinging? I legit didn't know this because the travel of the world was so fun that I never considered not wanting to do it. Which might also serve as another solution to the open world problem here.

How did you never notices this? Especially in Miles Morales. The spin-off made it explicitly clear the first time it opens up with the subway train icons. Traversing is fun, but I did use fast travel a couple of times, just so I could get a main quest done quicker. The side quest or trips to them, I would usually go by web and roof hopping.

 

[SilentPony]

 

[BrawlMan]

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[Johnny Novgorod]

Spider-man had a fast travel? Apart from web-swinging?

You can fast travel between police stations.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Spider-man had a fast travel? Apart from web-swinging?

Spider-man can take the subway to fast travel. It's actually petty funny. I did it a couple of times, but I did much prefer just using the web swinging because it's so fun.

It's a huge part of the reason I did all the challenges and 100 percented the game, because traveling around the map was fun rather than being a chore.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

We've had this debate a lot around here when it comes to video game difficulty. Usually when a new FromSoft game comes out or something like Cuphead, or The Surge, whatever it is, there is always a talk about difficulty in some way. Why isn't there difficulty options? Why do games leave mechanics unexplained.

And the flip side to this is that a lot of games these days have those things right? Difficulty settings, map markers all over the fucking place telling the player exactly where to go next, tutorials galore that explain every new mechanic or gameplay tool as it pops up. Very few games leave themselves for the player to learn and explore on their own.

Today i found out why.

They make games specifically for DarkSydePhil. Don't believe me......


Holy shit! That explains a lot.

For those who don't know, good for you, but DSP is basically the worst Let's Player in the world. He has zero ability to learn gameplay concepts, he will literally forget or just not pay attention to something the game told him seconds beforehand and fumble around an area unable to figure things out for himself. If he wasn't a streamer in which chat could explain the answers to him, Phil would never beat any game on his own outside of Mario games MAYBE.

This is not a post to bash Phil for many things he deserves bashing for. What I mean to discuss is the merits of designing games for players completely inept and whether or not that design choice is good for the medium as a whole.

Failing to see how seeing a shock crystal and going to that location to find potentially cool new stuff is hand-holding or otherwise detrimental game design in any significant way?

I mean, it would be a different story if Atreus or Mimir was harping in the player’s ear like, “Are you looking for shock crystals? You’re looking for shock crystals, aren’t you? Well lemme tell you where to find ‘em! Just steer this here vessel in that direction and, yup, nope, too far! Back up! Ba…aha! There you go. Well done Kratos!”

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I guess my argument would be that there is less opportunity to explore now. Take ubisoft games for instance. You can't play a Far Cry game without the map showering you with shit, the player always knows where every blade of grass is in the world despite the open maps being fairly interesting to possibly explore. Except you can never explore when everything interesting is laid out before you.

I feel like the sense of discovery is gone, and maybe the answer would be to give the player maps to find before showering the fucking map with icons. Which ironically Ubisoft used to do with the towers that people actively hated. But really there was a lot of good ideas behind the towers, usually they involved a puzzle of some sort which mean that people had to work at least a little bit for the reward of knowing where all the other things on the map are.

And I think that balance is the key, I don't think that they should look at the lowest common dumbass who is 49 years old and has never played a video game before. Even if someone gets into gaming at an older age and didn't grow up ingraining the built in universal skills that kids who grow up with games will automatically understand without having to be told. Because you have to credit the adult for at least having the mental capability to grasp how to hold the control and push the buttons on a basic level.

I don't like the idea that developers would possibly hold themselves back with level and gameplay design because they fear people would miss out on something they've laid out.

Red Dead 2 free roam would be the answer to most of that. I’d still be looking for half the shit towards Platinum if I never youtube’d locations for rockcarvings, treasure map sketches, talismans, that Dutchesses and Other Animals quest or the requirements for the It’s Art trophy which is about as long as some other games itself, etc.

The main factor sometimes, is just time itself. How much time does the player have available to do everything they’d like to do in a game. I’d love to find everything on my own, but chances are I never would unless I was retired and had maid service. Probably not even then.

 

[Offworlder]

My dear sweet Phillip, the most clowned man of all time. The very pinnacle of his career was appearing to having a wank on stream, but then people started debating if it was staged and if he was even smart enough to even pull off a stunt like that. His most talked about moment and people were questioning whether he was a dumbass or an idiot. They probably used his footage cos they knew they could get away with it.

For the uninitiated on his level of his frightening level of genius:




Also, this isn't really a groundbreaking thing to say. Quietly leading the player down the right path has happened as long as game design as existed. Bizarre they used a DSP clip though.

 

[happyninja42]

Also, this isn't really a groundbreaking thing to say. Quietly leading the player down the right path has happened as long as game design as existed. Bizarre they used a DSP clip though.

Yeah I mean tons of games have literally railroaded players down a hallway of encounters, with no variation on routes. At most, the side passage will lead to a chest with an item. This is so ubiquitous that we ALL do this when we come to a fork in the road. "Hmm, looks like Plot is to the Right, so let me go left, because invariably that is where the goodies will be, and I might not be allowed back, because they are pushing me down this hallway (even if the map implies you are in an open area).

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

A couple of months ago, I watched a streamer that I follow try to teach his wife how to play the first-person shooter he usually streams. She had absolutely no FPS knowledge coming in, and there were numerous things that he and most of the viewers expected her to already know, of which she was completely ignorant- seemingly simple things like strafing, firing in bursts, even knowing where to go next were things she had to be taught from scratch.

Now keep in mind that, with gaming having grown ever more popular and the ranks of gamers burgeoning with people who don't happen to have an experienced partner and/or a stream audience to walk them through the basics, developers want to put in unobtrusive ways for them to be able to get into and enjoy games. Now, you can say "I had to learn the hard way, and so can they", but that would make you an elitist jackass.

I don't like the idea that developers would possibly hold themselves back with level and gameplay design because they fear people would miss out on something they've laid out.

Let the developers decide how to handle it themselves.

 

[BrawlMan]

A couple of months ago, I watched a streamer that I follow try to teach his wife how to play the first-person shooter he usually streams. She had absolutely no FPS knowledge coming in, and there were numerous things that he and most of the viewers expected her to already know, of which she was completely ignorant- seemingly simple things like strafing, firing in bursts, even knowing where to go next were things she had to be taught from scratch.

Now keep in mind that, with gaming having grown ever more popular and the ranks of gamers burgeoning with people who don't happen to have an experienced partner and/or a stream audience to walk them through the basics, developers want to put in unobtrusive ways for them to be able to get into and enjoy games. Now, you can say "I had to learn the hard way, and so can they", but that would make you an elitist jackass.


Let the developers decide how to handle it themselves.

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